Shifting Adult E-trikes with 30+ mile range @ 25MPH

I got an order for a custom motorized trike with super long range and came up with this.





The front light is a 1200 Lumen CREE T6 LED with a 4 lithium 18650 battery pack.
The rear sports 3 12V incandescent automotive trailer lights in series with a switch across the 36V battery.



Above is the 24-48V Cyclone-e-bikes motor with freewheel sprocket and underneath you can see the 7-speed Kent Bayside trike derailleur and band brake.
Also note the rear light switch and the exposed end of the charger for simply plugging in a universal appliance cord to charge it.

In between the motor and axle is the dual sprockets attached to a special freewheel bearing that the right crank arm screws into so when the motor is running the pedals ratchet in place, when you pedal the motors sprocket ratchets in place, and of course you can use both at the same time.

My custom back box between the trike frame and basket holds the custom 36V 1KW/h 50A battery, controller and charger.



It tops out about 25MPH in 7th and a crazy wheelie popping monster in 1st and 2nd.
I have no idea what the range is, I didn't get time to fully test it, but I rode it around hard for 1/2 and hour, let it sit for 25 hours with the back lights on, then rode it around hard for another 1/2 an hour and the throttle indicator still said it had a full charge so I figure 30 miles minimum if not much more than that even with no pedal help.

Very clean professional build, KCvale. I wonder if that seat is as comfortable as the recumbent type sling seats?
otherDoc

Well thought out. The on board charger might not take the punishment though.....

very nice build

an idea is maybe to make a square rubber flap to cover the charger input, to keep
the rain out ? If you use a strip magnet all around (like in the door of a fridge) you
should get an OK seal and it's easy to use for the client.

Have you thought about putting the motor behind the seat post, such that the motor
chain runs in the same direction as the chain to the rear wheel ? I'd be scared of getting
my trousers caught in the motor chain with the chain pointing up like that...

wineboyrider said:

Well thought out. The on board charger might not take the punishment though.....

Click to expand...

Some closed cell neophrene 3/4" underneath should help reduce shock and vibration. :wink:

I do not see how that trike will go 25mph and stay upright thru anything but a flat smooth straight track.

any thoughts/

d

If a customer has been warned and accepts the risk, at least you tried to educate them. This style is called a Delta trike (2-wheels in back). If it had 2 wheels in front, it would be a tadpole. A member here had a nasty spill a while back (IIRC), when they were on a downhill curve, and something caused them to pull to one side suddenly (a child/dog/etc? was it Mike Fairbanks?).

If someone needed three wheels, you might offer the option of a more expensive tadpole, and look for one where the seat height is slightly lower. Both of those features would reduce the tipping-over dangers. I agree on the charger, handy to have with the bike for topping off and "opportunity charging", but it is very likely to suffer with even small bumps. Looks good, though.

edit: "The importance of potting mobile chargers"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32085

$80 adjustable voltage LED power supply, as a fully potted mobile E-bike charger
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32799

Nice looking. I rode a Worksman trike for 2 years on a factory floor. Not super safe at speeds. I would want my customer to understand that. On the road (especially if they are anything like the roads in my town), it is just difficult on a trike to avoid potholes/road hazards, etc. Pretty easy to get pinch flats/bent rims, etc.. I am using 16" motorcycle rims with Pirelli ML75s. These are DOT products, so, they are meant to take the damage the road may throw at them. One of our members, ddk, finally decided 15 mph was his comfort zone.

I am also building an upright delta trike, and part of my design is making it so that I can ride it without motor encumberance so that I can easily take the slow, walking pace rides which are part of what makes these kinds of trikes great. Great bikes to have conversations with people while slowly riding around the neighborhood, campus, wherever.

Good Job!

My first electric trike was standard delta configuration and my comfort zone on that thing was 12mph.
One of the biggest issues about a granny-style delta is how hard it is to keep from steering into the curb on a heavily crowned road.
Stability in turns is next.
My crank-forward lowered trikes exhibit neither of those issues.

Sancho's Horse said:

... One of our members, ddk, finally decided 15 mph was his comfort zone...

Click to expand...

That' 15mph 'limit' only with my enclosed tricycle. Needs a couple of engineering issues addressed before I can go faster.
I solved one of those issues just today... body roll.
The other issue might never be addressed -but-the enclosed trike is specifically for riding in challenging incidental weather patterns and/or nighttime carousing , where 15mph is just about perfect.
My 'open' trike I've downhilled above 35mph and is quite stable except- too scared to take my eyes off the road above 35mph.
Both these trikes are delta configuration but with the seat/steering a good 10" lower than the granny-style deltas of the world.

oh, and good looking trike build you did!
@ 12mph it should have a range of about 100 miles.
(double posting is my specialty)

Looks good except for the same nitpicks as the others said. I like the way a cyclone kit goes on to it, tucking under the seat like that.

At 25 mph, it will beat the crap out of the charger. I'm also concerned about the battery. It needs something to prevent it from chafing on the mount bracket. Something like some mudflap rubber, coroplast, etc. something to keep the metal from eventually sawing through the shrink.

The back wheels are going to bend and break spokes unless those back wheels are outstanding, and hitting bumps at 25 mph will launch shit out of the basket.

At 25 mph, you can't even swerve around a broken bottle. These trikes are best built to go 15-20 mph max. I'd gear it way down if it was my trike. Just set the derailur so it can't use the highest gear sprockets. Giving it 20 mph top speed will help with safety, and all the other problems that will accelerate with 25 mph use.

My bud is bringing his Schwinn trike tomorrow for me to finish. I realize the potential for a tip over so to minimize it I may put 24x3' tires (low pressure)on the back and mount the 52v 15ah LiFe as low as I can get it and as far back as possible. The seat will be as low as it can go (forget pedaling) and be a big saddle seat. Perhaps with a set back post. Front BMC V2T and set the throttle in the CA for 50% (2v). Nice stained slotted wood deck and slotted walls going back about 6" more then the tire. Just trying to get rid of it. He supplies everything and I get 40%. These numbers look unusual. Maybe closer to a semi-recumbent at this speed. Range looks good.

docnjoj said:

I wonder if that seat is as comfortable as the recumbent type sling seats?

Click to expand...

No--at least, not for me. A sling seat is suspension as well as body-fitting support. Even the crappy one I made for CrazyBike2 has worked so well that I never bothered to rebuild it as I had planned. I just periodically retension the paracord holding the webbing around the frame.


Regarding the trike--yeah, you probably could ride it at 25MPH, but I would only try it on a flat level road, no bumps, no crown, no slope, no curves.

My Delta T(r)ipper is a lot taller and shorter and thus even less stable, but I can't make a typical turn at a street corner without slowing to less than 10MPH, and even that is kinda tippy-feeling (it's better with the trailer attached, but not a lot). A road with a typical curve that you can't see around in 1/16 mile from where you are keeps me below 16MPH or so. Even the little dips we have in the road here for cross-road drainage in some places, which can't be more than an inch deep, and a foot wide (curving down from road level to that 1" deep and then back up) are extremely rough to go over beyond around 8-10MPH, with 20" front and 26" rear. Speedbumps that are about 3 feet wide and perhaps 3" high (guessing, never measured) are almost as bad, if less jolting. Wider speedbumps are a little easier, and I can go 13-14MPH over some of them without clacking my teeth together.

Also, as most paths and roads (at least here in Phoenix) are not perfectly flat, but have little warps and dips and rises that aren't the same all over their surface from left to right, these kinds of trikes feel like a hurdy-gurdy ride over a lot of them at any speed above 8-10MPH. Independent rear suspension might help with that...which I have planned for a future version--or a tilting-front-end delta (front leans like a bike in turns) would also be less affected by that (maybe not at all).


The front suspension you have might help in the frotn but as someone else said, it'll launch cargo (and rider) off the back end when hitting bumps at those speeds.

RE the speed. My first ebike was very similar to this. It's not the center of gravity that makes em tricky to ride fast, it's that you lose steering effectiveness past about 15 mph. This is due to no leaning. The front tire just starts to scrub and the rear of the bike lags behind quite a bit. You'll see the frame twist like mad if you crank the bars over much at 30 mph.

Sloping roads get tricky, tell the buyer not to leave a flat road and ride along a sloping shoulder above 15 mph. It will pull him into the ditch once the bike gets on the side slope for sure if he's moving fast. And tell him to expect to need some time to steer around potholes when going fast too. Seriously, I can't advise strongly enough to limit the speed to about 20 mph by not using the higher gears.

The other hassles can be dealt with, such as getting a stronger rear wheel built if he breaks spokes a lot. That's what my schwinn needed.

At speed of about 15 mph, you can steer around broken glass, or ride a side slope, and can master the two wheel turn if you really gotta get turned in a hurry. Wierd to lean away from a corner, but it will get you around once the third wheel leaves the ground. Nothing at all wrong with the trikes at lower speeds.

Hi Guys, sorry I haven't been back, I see lots of good helpful comments so thanks.
That was my first electric trike, I have since built another on the last of the Kent Bayside tikes but with a 20A Kelly controller and LT250 charger, and I put a keylock ignition switch on the box.







But that's not what I'm excited about, this is.

I settled on a new trike made in China by Flying Pigeon, and I have them configured however I want for example with or out a front fork shock, seat, fenders, any color, etc for dirt cheap, but it's the shipping that kills you unless go a literal 'slow boat from China' route.

I'll post another reply with the info for it just to keep my trike fun in the same topic.

Here is what one inovative company has done, It tilts from the rear axle forward. The Bionx is optional.
http://www.varnahandcycles.com/cycles.htm

otherDoc

My new Electric Shifting Adult Trike is based on the Flying Pigeon 6-speed adult tricycle.



---
FRAME&FORK: steel #966;50*2.0mm frame&fork
HANDLE BAR SETS: alloy handle bar &alloy stem& steel seat post
DRIVE SYSTEM: alloy crank& steel chain wheel with steel F type chain cover
WHEEL SETS: steel rim 24"*1.75
black tire(Wanda brand), A/V 24*1.75
13G spoke
BRAKE SETS: front caliper brake and rear band brake
saddle as picture
DERAILLEUR: Shimano outter 6speed or 1speed
FENDER&CHAIN COVER: steel with painting
COLOR&STICKER: to order
ACCESSORY: with front&rear basket
FOB TIANJIN: 156usd (shimano 6speed)
---

They powder coat them any color I want and even put on my own own custom stickers, what do you think about yellow and the chain guard I might even be able to leave on with just notches for the electric motor chain?



The drive motor is a Cyclone-E-Bikes CY-650 ~ 1680W 24-48V BLDC electric motor with freewheel sprocket, and the http://kellycontroller.com/kbs48101l35a24-48v-mini-brushless-dc-controller-p-1171.html Kelly KBS 48101L-L Fully Programmable Controller.



---
General Specifications:
• Frequency of Operation: 16.6kHz.
• Standby Battery Current: < 0.5mA.
• 5V Sensor Supply Current: 40mA.
• Controller supply voltage range, PWR, 18V to 90V.
• Supply Current, PWR, 150mA.
• Configurable battery voltage range, B+. Max operating range: 18V to 60V.
• Analog Brake and Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts. Can use 3-wire pot to produce 0-5V signal.
• Reverse Alarm, Main Contactor Coil Driver, Meter: <200mA.
• Full Power Operating Temperature Range: 0c to 50c (controller case temperature).
• Operating Temperature Range: -30c to 90c, 100c shutdown (controller case temperature).
• Motor Current Limit, 10 seconds boost: 100A.
• Motor Current Limit, continuous: 35A.
• Max Battery Current :Configurable.
---

The most expensive part is the custom made battery pack.
~950WHr 35A (40A Max) rechargeable Lithium Ion battery pack comprised of 120 3.6V cells with a smart Battery Management System (BMS) and and matching an adjustable voltage 6A 'smart' charger for it.

Finally is the custom made rear mount battery box and custom motor mounting plate.
My new plate will use a pair of muffler clamps to secure the motor mount plate to the back of the seat tube.

The box houses the battery, it's charger, the controller, and 3 tail lights.
A pic from this morning before I button it up.

It's just your basic unassuming 3-wheel adult trike with a utility box.



Wires? What wires?
Until you pop the cover off.







The silver controller has it own mounts direct to the base, and I coated the contact point with Lithium heat sink grease before it was screwed down so the case acts like big heat sink.

The battery in the middle now sports 90° metal full length side bars with lag bolts.
The bolts being past the ends of the battery allows for a ridged structure that stops side to side and front to back movement, and of course disperse the clamping force over both full sides so not to damage the cells inside.
Note the battery also sits on a pad.

The charger also has a new U-bracket to secure the back and the 90 degree tabs on the top cover hold the front in place as it comes out flush to allow plugging the chargers power cord in.
Note I padded the bottom of the charger with some 1/4" pink packing material to minimize vibration like the battery.

It is not done yet, I want to take a few pics of it with no lights or baskets finished as a base model tomorrow as the least expensive base as I can make it, then add the options for baskets, lights, keylock, etc.

More work to do but it runs now at that of course is first, all the rest is just candy ;-}

Regarding trikes and speed...
They are indeed freaky to ride especially after so much time on motorized 2-wheelers.
What freaked me out the most was what happens when you pop a wheelie. With just the back right drive it spins like a top.

To combat that I set the Kelly to balance between Torque and Speed, I'm not sure how it works, just that it does.
Though I agree 15-18MPH is a comfortable speed on a trike on a long stretch of good flat road I am fine with 25MPH+ and here in Phoenix, AZ we have lots of that nice road and weather to ride in.

I still need a flap for the battery charger end on the case and some other little items before it's done but that is the layout as base for having 10 new cases made up with all the holes, cuts and bends done so new builds are just parts install and not 'design as you go' which is as we all know very time consuming.

Anyway, I am kind of excited about this new facet in my motorized bike building business ;-}

docnjoj said:

Here is what one inovative company has done, It tilts from the rear axle forward. The Bionx is optional.
http://www.varnahandcycles.com/cycles.htm

otherDoc

Click to expand...

Thanks Doc, I have seen similar low tilting design trikes as well, and then of course there are really low recumbent trikes made for speed that don't tip at all but that is a different market, mine are built for 'active baby boomer adult' community.
Something will go for all day just putting around, easy to mount, comfortable to ride and can haul a week of groceries or with maybe a different back basket for your golf clubs, hehehe, I'll look into that too as a personal cool golf cart might be fun and there is no shortage of golf courses around for me to explore, I can easily ride to 3, play 18 and ride back with this battery ;-}

I reccomend using or trying the bottom bracket mount. i Also reccomend the a123 20ah prismatic lifepo4 cells as these can handle 100amps continous and 200amp peak and i think that increases the more you have in series and parralel and are used in commercial electric car and bus batteries. you would have plenty of space in that trike basket for a 48v 20ah or 48v 40 ah. OSn power do great batteries and free shipping and i bought from them. i think with lithium polymer you get slightly more range than lifepo4 as lipo cells are 3.7v and lifepo4 are 3.3v. the a123 cells are about the best you can get. i am glad i chose these a123 and not headway cells as 20ah individual cells gives great performance. these korean cells are very good. i think a123 are cells are worth the slight extra weight over lipo but i would like to try lipo as 20ah of lipo is only 6.2kg. what i would also like to see is a frame built with reinforced and strength enahnced frame with slightly more beefy build but still beig able to be pedaled. I'd like to see a chinese pit bike frame with pedals option which would be able to handle higher weight 10kw bldc golden motor motor. what we need is a frame able to handle the weight of a 10kg mid drive motor with strength enahnced areas yet still have pedals so it can be classed as electric bike. those bldc golden motors can handle 120v. we need somebod to build an electric mid drive bike that has a a frame that canm handle motor bike speeds and heavier motor yet still able to be pedalled so you can get round the pedal bike laws and have it classed as bicycle and be disguised to not look so much like a motor cycle.

chunder123 said:

we need somebod to build an electric mid drive bike that has a a frame that canm handle motor bike speeds and heavier motor yet still able to be pedalled so you can get round the pedal bike laws and have it classed as bicycle and be disguised to not look so much like a motor cycle.

Click to expand...

You can buy electric bikes like that for $80,000.



http://www.pg-bikes.com/index.php#blacktrailtwodetails" The BlackTrail 2
Price $80,000.00.
Top speed 100 kilometres per hour.
Acceleration from 0 to 100 in less than five seconds.
Weight 46 kg.
Power 9.5 hp.
Generator 300 watt.
Max range 200 km (~50km/h)
Max range 100 km (~100km/h)

http://www.pg-bikes.com/index.php#about

I neglected to post the finished pictures of my 3rd E-Trike.









There were previous posts with concerns about the rear wheels, I don't see any issues, it's a strong rim with fat hub and 12g spokes. The trike is rated to a 350 pound load.

This new trike has been getting a workout as the 'shops parts run' vehicle for a couple of months now and done a great job of it. I really REALLY need to put a speedometer on it so I can check speed and mileage between charges but for shop use it is ideal. I have a bicycle shop, hardware store, 2 auto supply houses and 2 metal places and a 30 pump gas station all within 1/2 a mile and one run could hit them all in one circle trip and not go much over mile with none of the riding on any major road.

As for top speed I'd like a bit more top end speed on occasion but overall just perfect as is.

I generally have the help make parts run but I like to make the gas runs for my gas powered motorized bikes, there is just something priceless about an electric trike at the gas station filling gas cans and I always end up in a conversation ;-}

I had to put different tires on mine...but it handles 600 lbs...and I come close to using this capacity. For your situation, regular tires are perfect. Sorry, I go into trike warning mode at the drop of a hat. Some people get the wrong ideas...go way too fast without learning what the trike can do, and it only takes a few reported wrecks to really hurt trike reputations.

Sancho's Horse said:

mine...but it handles 600 lbs...and I come close to using this capacity. For your situation, regular tires are perfect. Sorry, I go into trike warning mode at the drop of a hat. Some people get the wrong ideas...go way to fast without learning what the trike can do, and it only takes a few reported wrecks to really hurt trike reputations.

Click to expand...

I see it on other forums, people wanting to drop big gas motors on pedal trikes, I go into 'Danger Will Robinson! Danger!' mode myself ;-}

I figure it is always wise to check out the competition. Here is one that is definitely not cheap but is quite stable. ddk uses it for his enclosed trike.
http://www.belizebike.com/english/coolerider.html

otherDoc