Sydney ebike noob questions

Hi,

I've only recently started to consider ebike (for some reason I was under the impression you couldn't get one in Aus ... how wrong, I know !) and been lurking that forum for the last couple of weeks.
Basically, I'm considering an ebike for commuting (about 10km each way, double that with future school run, ) and having some off road fun (nothing too crazy just national parks trail, I haven't seriously been on a bike for 10 years or so).
I really like the Stealth Fighter but I'm a bit worried that it might be a bit too much for me and getting a child seat on it would be quite challenging it seems.

So a good enough mountain bike + conversion kit is probably the way to go (DIY everything is a bit daunting), any recommendations ?
Would something like Giant Talon 29er be a good start ?

Thanks in advance

PS : Just a general thank you for this forum ... really opened my mind about ebikes

Welcome to the forum.
That Giant has some problems. Most Ebike rear motors have a freewheel gear set for the rear, where that bike has a CST. They aren't compatable, and most Ebike motors are too wide to fit that many gears. since that bike uses a narrower chain, and a narrower front set of gears, you would end up replacing both shifters, both derailers, all gears, and the chain in order to make that bike work. Not impossable, just a needless expense.

What you want is a bike with a 7 speed rear to simplify things. I don't know if Giant offers one right now. Trek does. Many older bikes used 7 speed rears, and in most cases, a used bike is better to convert than a new bike.

Oz has some interesting and overly restrictive laws on what is legal for an Ebike. I won't suggest you break the law... exactly. Lets call this "keeping the in spirit of the law"... For handeling offroad trails, you need a 500 watt motor. The laws were designed to keep people riding responsably, so just ride responsably.

For simplicity sake, a direct drive motor will handle what you need. Combined with a 36 volt 15AH battery will get you 10 km there and back again with energy to spare, but you may find you like a 48 volt better. Almost everyone does eventualy.

I own a Greyborg I built with 20AH of 20S lipo, and a 5404, which I call my "Welfare Stealth Bomber", but I also own what might be called a "Homeless Man's Stealth Bomber" (if we accept my Greyborg to be the "welfare" rung), and that is a Giant DH comp, with Kiwi's dropout adaptors. I paid $500 Aus for the DH comp, and then a 12 Fet lyen controller, and a HS35. In my opinion, if you want a cheap, easy DIY version of the Stealth, then you can't go past the DH comp with the Kiwi adaptors. This presumes you don't want to pedal much (because the DH comp, like all DH bikes, pedals like a shopping trolley), but if you were eyeing the Stealth then I personally think pedaling wasn't much on your menu.

This is a DH comp example: http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/australind/bicycles/giant-down-hill-mountain-bike/1019213532

This is the Kiwi dropouts I am talking about. http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33767&hilit=dh+comp+Adaptors

If you want a high power full susser bike (particularly if you are limited on machining skills etc), you will quickly learn that hubmotors at high power need good dropout solutions, and Kiwi sorts that perfectly.

Using a stealth fighter as a commuter will bring a lot of attention to you(boys in blue!), Will be very hard to convince that it is only 200w.

If you're going to do both commuting and trail rides, I suggest you get two bikes:

One hybrid or road bike with a 500w motor that you could believably tell the boys in blue that it's 200w. The motor should be high speed, low torque unless you're in a hilly area of Sydney. That way, you could shorten the commute, while not having "unbelievable" take off speeds that would attract attention.

For the other bike, get a MTB with high grip tyres and a high power, high torque motor, so you can satisfy your need for speed and climb some of the trails without overheating your motor.

Thanks guys

Sounds like I have a bit of homework to do
For the sydneysiders, I live a bit after the spit bridge so there is a bit of a hill, and commute to st Leonards or frenchs forest.
I'm not too concerned about the motor being above 200w as I wouldn't see myself speeding but I wouldn't mind being able to be somewhat close to 35/40 km/h at times. On the rare occasion I took a bike, being slower looks like an indication for car drivers to abuse you or not care much about you.

I don't mind pedalling but a bit of help on climbs wouldn't hurt :wink:
I'll keep reading your comments and other posts as there's apparently more in a successful conversion than picking a bike and hooking a kit... Especially when trying to combine commuting, fun and a child seat (something like a bobike junior) which is why I was going for a "tamed" mtb. Having two bikes would solve that but I would love to have just have, even if it means compromising a bit.

Yeah that Talon 29er is quite unsuitable for most motors due to the large amount of gears available on the cassette, only way u could use that is get a Xofo motor which is CST compatible and ditch a few top gears which you won't need. On the plus side the largest crank ring on the crankset of that bike is 44 which should give you a nice pedalling ability when at top speed.
Apparently this guy is a reputable seller of CST motors http://szxfmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/638683876-213690334/Big_power_Hub_Motor_500W_cassette_Rear_use.html?tracelog=cgsotherproduct1

Build your commuter, using a more mundane MTB. Steel frames work good for that first try at DIY, stuff like treks, giants, and specialized bikes that retailed at about $300 in the USA. But don't reject a bike because it's aluminum.

Look for,

7 speed rear cluster, but 8 speed can work good enough. Forget 9 speed bikes.
Fairly large flat area around the rear dropouts. Avoid ones with too much weight saved there. You need some flat area to make installing torque arms easy.
Trigger shifters tend to work well with half twist throttles. Twist shifters tend to make adding a throttle awkward.
Disk brakes are nice, but not mandatory.
A large open space in the frame is nice for carrying the battery, so look at bikes with only front suspension.
26" wheels are bad enough with hubmotors. a 29 er just makes it worse IMO. The bigger the rim, the harder the motor has to work to turn it.

A decent commuter in the 1000w range can trail ride, provided the trails are not crazy steep for too long. 5% grades no problem. 15% can melt motors. But ideally you build a dirt bike for dirt. A stealth fighter is way beyond a 1000w commuter.

Obviously, a street legal 200w hubmotor bike will suck on any kind of hill. Hopefully you live in one of the areas where cops have better things to do.

I was only looking at the Talon because I saw the Hybrid version
By the sounds of it, 1000w and a basic MTB will do. Saw some posts around Trek 3/4 Series that even I feel like able to do.

You can save yourself a lot of trouble by buying a BH Emotion Neo. They make several versions, they're good climbers and they have the EN15194 certificate that makes them legal. If you look on your local forums, you'll see that most owners are happy with them apart from maybe the speed (25km/h). Anything you make yourself will probably be illegal. I don't know if that's a problem for you. You can select a suitable bike and electric kit and build something similar or better yourself for about half the price, but unless you're particularly skillful, it won't be as nice; however, you can choose a bigger battery for longer range, and/or choose a motor that will give you whatever speed you want.

If you decide that you want to make your own bike, you need to start with a list of requirements, then people can advise you on the type of motor/battery:
Legal/not legal
Speed
Weight (including you)
Range
Type of journeys (hills)
budget
etc

Funny, I was thinking Neo Jumper and then d8veh posted the same thing!
http://www.bikes.com.au/p/8497540/2013-bh-easy-motion-neo-jumper---electric-bike.html

If you want 'off the shelf', it seems the BH Emotion Neo is getting a lot of good reviews around the traps.

If you have the technical ability (it's not that hard!) and want to build your own, then consider something like mine (see link in sig below) - it's a hub motor (changed from the Crystalyte to BPM geared for size/weight reasons), with a LiFePO4 battery. Looks sort-a like the Giant Talon.

There is a lot of discussion here about the cassette. In the end, I ditched the whole cassette and had a 'single speed' built from an deconstructed 6-speed shimano freewheel, and kept my front 3xchainrings to make a 3-speed bike. Works fine - but the Spit Bridge might be hard work!

FWIW, I don't reckon that even 1000W is going to get you up either side of the Spit Bridge between Mosman and Manly with any 'ease' - it's pretty darn steep, so there's going to be a lot of pedalling going on, and the motor is going to get mighty hot doing it, I would expect. But everywhere else, a Crystalyte or 9-continents or BPM geared hubmotor is going to suit you fine.

Where to buy? There are lots of locals in Syd/Melb who can help you out, consider Hyena in Sydney, or Ben Moore in Melbourne for the motors/controllers. Batteries depends if you want to go LiPo or not. I've just got some Headway LiFePO4 from evassemble in china, but Ping Battery and Cellman are very well regarded here as well.

Hope that helps...

What about a magic pie ? For a first timer who wants minimal fuss they're a good option and with the integrated controller they make for a neat installtion.
They're also fairly torquey so will help you get up those hills.
I know a guy in Sydney who has one on hand too

go test some ebikes.

The problem in Australia is our laws here are a pathetic 200w so that's all the bike shops stock.
As far as test rides go, if you want to feel the performance of 200w you may as well sit on a bike with your arms out and wait for a gust of wind :lol:

Thanks guys !

So I spent some time reading this awesome forum and your posts.
I've also tried a 200w ebike and ... well it's close to useless as far as I'm concerned (I'm 168cm and 80kg, not fat but a bit chunky and the 200w were close to no help on hills)
So I'll go DIY ... Probably not full DIY, i'll just go with some known kit something from Hyena Industries

Hdex said:

Thanks guys !

So I spent some time reading this awesome forum and your posts.
I've also tried a 200w ebike and ... well it's close to useless as far as I'm concerned (I'm 168cm and 80kg, not fat but a bit chunky and the 200w were close to no help on hills)
So I'll go DIY ... Probably not full DIY, i'll just go with some known kit something from Hyena Industries

Click to expand...

The BH Emotion Neos are in a different class. They have twice the power of the one you tried. Australia has now allowed bikes certified to EN15194, which means badged as 250w but no throttle. I say "badged" because the standard doesn't really tie down maximum power, so some manufacturers are exploiting that, which is probably why the Neos, Bosch and Panasonic 36v crank-drives and others are now so much more powerful than bikes from a couple of years ago.

The 1000w direct drive motors are relatively big and heavy. You won't be able to kid anyone that your bike's legal. You's be much better with a 500w geared motor, which can probably climb better, but are much smaller and lighter, and are not so easy to notice:
Nobody notices that this bike is electric. The motor's completely hidden by the disk brake on the other side. This one will climb any hill as long as you can keep the front wheel on the road.

you might want to contact Maurice and Abraham at glowworm bicycles in Marrickville.

they can certainly help you with a kit that will do what you want.
and i too would recommend the 500W geared hub motor approach. that's what im running, and it's a fantastic climber.

Jason