2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Miles » Apr 06 2014 2:57am

spinningmagnets wrote:This thing is bugging me, and I really want to understand it...
Ron,

Part 10 is contiguous with the ring gear.
Part 18 is contiguous with the spur gear.

Both are in permanent engagement with the minor planet gears.
Because one is an internal gear, they will rotate in opposite directions.
The ring gear [10] will rotate in the same direction as the planet gears.
The spur gear [18] will rotate in the opposite direction.

Part 13 is connected to the hub shell.

From the perspective of the drawing:

If the motor is rotating in a anti-clockwise direction, the planets will rotate in an clockwise direction, so part 10 will be moving in a clockwise direction which will cause the rollers to lock it to part 13. So, in this case, the output will be from the ring gear, so we are in first gear. The spur gear, which is also engaged, will rotate in an an anticlockwise direction, so it will not force the rollers to lock it to part 23, which is connected to the hub shell via part 13. It will simply rotate on bearings mounted on the central axle and not be in the active output chain.

Reverse the rotational direction of the motor and the roles are reversed and second gear is active.

Does that help? :)

Edit: LOL. You posted your additional thoughts while I was writing mine...

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Apr 06 2014 5:54am

Crickey! I think you've got it. Well, then...this really is something. It's starting to look like we weren't crazy after all...

"Epicyclic retro-direct 2 speed transmission" from June 2009, roughly 5 years ago...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=10908
Last edited by spinningmagnets on May 01 2014 5:06pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Miles » Apr 06 2014 6:12am

It's quite a clever design.

There's no "direct drive", the gears are always acting. This allows such a small motor to be used.

Anyway, we'll see what D8ve has when he takes his apart :)

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Miles » Apr 06 2014 6:44am

Not sure how this fits in.....
On flat roads. we can choose high-speed condition, the torque is small when the revolution reachs a certain level. Thus motor can be speedy and low waer and tear at the same time.
My emphasis.

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friendly1uk   10 MW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by friendly1uk » Apr 06 2014 8:59am

How accurate is the ebikes simulator? It indicates more torque from a fast wind q100 using 15 amps. I think the graph falls apart though at the edge.

This motor 43nm (d8veh said 15a)
q100 328 at 15a 43nm
bpm at 15a 60nm
bpm at 21a 75nm

I don't think the sim recognises motor stall. I don't know if the 2 speed graphs are simulated or real though. I can't read any of the info given. Drawings without keys, graphs with axis labels, It's crap documentation. I see 50nm with 18a but it claims 100% efficiency. It's not real. I'm sure d8veh wouldn't be impressed with something equal to a q100 fast wind when climbing. I can't benchmark this at all.



I wonder if the $108 includes the special controller. The chap who quoted that price didn't seem to know there is one.
bmsbattery sent me broken and incorrect stuff, and won't even talk to me about it.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by WhatcomRider » Apr 07 2014 1:44am

friendly1uk wrote: ---
I wonder if the $108 includes the special controller. The chap who quoted that price didn't seem to know there is one.
It's another $16 (USD) for the controller for this motor. I see now that the special controller is required to take advantage of the two speeds.
Kona Minute midtail cargo bike w/ dual 350W MAC kits, 36V/15Ah Headway battery kit, and CA V3 - heavy but very stable, eats hills.
GT Timberline MTB w/ integrated torque-sensor motor, sine-wave controller, and LCD display - nice, smooth, quiet ride.
Ultra Motor Europa pre-built - good range, but noisy brushed Heinzmann motor struggles up hills.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 07 2014 7:33am

Would it be possible to usea cycle analyst with its controller?

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 08 2014 3:56am

Yes. You can use the SA version or you can wire your own connector to the controller, which is pretty easy, for the direct plug in type.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 08 2014 4:08am

D8veh, first of all, thank you for all the info you share about this new motor.
This seems the best solution for what I want then, but only if it is reliable.
As it is all new I cannot find anything other on the net than your writings.
What are your impressions about build quality and toughness of the engine?
Will it be able to survive let's say cross country MTB rides?
Are there sealings to keep dust and water out?
As I'm mechanic, I could always replace low quality bearings and add protection as well as optimise bad finished parts and fine tune the engine, but there needs to be a solid base to make it worth the efforts....

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 08 2014 1:58pm

That"s a difficult question to answer because I haven't looked inside yet. I get a feeling that the motor is quite strong. It cuts the power when it changes gear, so there's no extra risk there. The only question is whethet the gear mechanism is durable enough. I'm sure it will be good enogh for trails, but rough treatment from jumping might be too much for it.

I'll be seeing the Xiongda people at the Shanghai show, so I'll see if I can find out a bit more.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 09 2014 2:29am

That really is perfect timing, as i see that is held mid April.
I don't do extreme riding anymore, I've reached the forties so I'm calming down a lot, but to survive my riding it would at least have to resist riding down stairs and that kind of shocks,as I plan be doing urban "evade traffic" shortcuts with it.
I will try contacting them myself too.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 14 2014 3:59am

I just sent a mail askin for more information, I will share any information I receive.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 14 2014 12:06pm

They didn't give me much at the show, but they confirmed that it changes gear by reversing. When he told me that they didn't want to explain how it it worked, I told him that I would open one to find out for myself. He didn't seem too happy, but I told him that if I didn't, someone else would. He seemed surprised. He didn't seem to realise that we were interested in how it worked. I think that he thought that we would just use it and be happy.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 14 2014 12:12pm

I just received a very kind mail in response of my (first and quite simple) questions.
It has the spreadsheet that is on the aliexpress description page included.
Not the screenshot but the actual spreadsheet, including the graph.
I will ask if I may share it with you all.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Miles » Apr 14 2014 12:46pm

d8veh wrote:They didn't give me much at the show, but they confirmed that it changes gear by reversing. When he told me that they didn't want to explain how it it worked, I told him that I would open one to find out for myself. He didn't seem too happy, but I told him that if I didn't, someone else would. He seemed surprised. He didn't seem to realise that we were interested in how it worked. I think that he thought that we would just use it and be happy.
Maybe he doesn't understand what a patent is for? Anyway, I explained how it works above (assuming that it's the same as their patent). The basic principle used is that exposed in a lapsed German patent of 1997.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 16 2014 6:45am

Ok, i have permission to share the info they gave me.
Here is the test data spreadsheet
They explained that "you just compare the torque<N.m> and current"
I've been staring at it for a long time, but only the "IN RED" things make sense to me.
It gives a good impression of the difference between the two gears though.

The answers i got:
-Default top speed 26" 36V and 48V model= 15-18 km/h in low gear and 25-30 km/h in high gear
-Great hill climbing
-Not tested in rough circumstances (jumping, abnormal road conditions) and not sure if the engine is suitable.
-the motor has two systerm of speed reduction,high speed and low speed.when riding in flat road you can choose high speed mode,this time the motor running faster .when uphill ,you can choose the low speed mode, with the same current ,the speed will be reduced by half,and the torque will be double.
-actually it is just a very common Ebike controller (pic).which has the forward and backward controlling function.
-the controller is none programmable.


And i got some pretty pictures too!
Image
Image

I will inform you when i get more information.

I'm very interested in real life offroad testing data!


*edited speed info
Last edited by knutselmaaster on Apr 17 2014 12:53am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by waynebergman » Apr 16 2014 10:44am

I sure hope this motor shows promise. I have always thought a two speed hub motor would be the ideal. My hope would be that this motor works well enough to inspire some one to make a heavy duty version of it. Even if you could put 50v 30a through a two speed motor something like this one and also have the ability to ride rough surfaces with out wrecking the motor this would be the dream solution for me.

Good luck with your purchase d8veh and thanks for the updates on how it performs for you.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 17 2014 4:04am

I spoke with them again yesterday and someone that makes OEM bikes with this motor. They say that the noise problem is much better now that they have changed to a new controller (Sine-wave?). You can thetefore expect to see OEM bikes coming on to the market soon with this motor, and I'll see if my next ones are any better. They promised to ship them today, but we'll see what happens.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 17 2014 8:43am

knutselmaaster wrote:Ok, i have permission to share the info they gave me.
Here is the test data spreadsheet
They explained that "you just compare the torque<N.m> and current"
I've been staring at it for a long time, but only the "IN RED" things make sense to me.
It gives a good impression of the difference between the two gears though.

The answers i got:
-Default top speed 26" 36V and 48V model= 15-18 km/h in low gear and 25-30 km/h in high gear
Those speeds don't sound right. IIRC max speed at 36v in low gear is 180 rpm, which is about 22 km/h; and high gear is 360 rpm, which is 44 km/h.

On the road, on the flat, mine reaches about 32km/hr at 36v and maybe 40km/h with 12S lipos at 48v.

It will continue pulling my 100kg up a steep hill at 6km/h without stalling, which is about the same as a 250w crank-drive in first gear.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 18 2014 6:46am

Strange, as I explicitly asked for a version that could do 25 km/h in the low gear and the answer was exactly the same, "typically 15-18" and 1.82 times low gear speed in high gear.
If it is true that they changed the controller, it might have to do with that? Is the controller you have in your bike different from the pictures I posted d8ve?

They send me some nice cad designs of the 7 different models.
There is front and rear, for disc, for roller brake, for freewheel etc.
Too bad there is no cassette version.
Now it really makes me doubt to take a front wheel in stead of a rear wheel version.
What is your opinion about that?
If I buy two sets I save a lot on shipping fee, I might try the both of them.

Those 9 speed freewheel I saw might do the job, as I don't want to change my shifters.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Arbol » Apr 18 2014 6:56am

1. Do they sell the motor with a wheel built in?
2. Do they sell an HWBS, ie a hidden wire brake sensor?

I do not see in their webpage they sell these items. But the sell other kits (not with the 2 Speed Motor) with a wheel built in.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 18 2014 7:19am

The wheel, yes I suppose they can. I prefer buying a quality rim and spokes for the money I save on transport costs as it ads a lot of volume and weight.
I'm not sure they sell other parts than the ones in their kits.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by crossbreak » Apr 18 2014 9:00am

OMG how could i miss this thread for so long! Thanks for that pics but they are so large i can't view this page on my smartphone.. here are smaller ones
Attachments
Motorandspareparts.jpg
Motorandspareparts.jpg (85.02 KiB) Viewed 3686 times
CONTROLER.jpg
CONTROLER.jpg (77.34 KiB) Viewed 3686 times

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gogo   10 MW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by gogo » Apr 18 2014 9:15am

knutselmaaster wrote:The answers i got:
-Default top speed 26" 36V and 48V model= 15-18 km/h in low gear and 25-30 km/h in high gear …
1.82 times low gear speed in high gear.
Miles wrote:The difference between low and high gears is set by the ratio of ring gear [10] to spur gear [18]. In this case “1.82” so, presumably, 22t to 40t.

Any flaws so far?
The numbers say 1.667, which is coincidentally the same ratio as the Solomatic 2 speed pulley-transmission which has a 1:1 top gear.
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking." -Steven Wright

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 18 2014 11:14am

D8veh talks about double between the two on the one he tried. That is closer to 1.8 than to 1.6
Where do you base the 1.6 on?

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