2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

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gogo   10 MW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by gogo » Apr 18 2014 4:26pm

knutselmaaster wrote:D8veh talks about double between the two on the one he tried. That is closer to 1.8 than to 1.6
Where do you base the 1.6 on?
From the top speeds you said you got from the mfg.
knutselmaaster wrote:The answers i got:
-Default top speed 26" 36V and 48V model= 15-18 km/h in low gear and 25-30 km/h in high gear
1.82 times low gear speed in high gear.
They might have the auto-shift programmed for a speed that's less than can be achieved in 1st.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 18 2014 4:33pm

Ah I see why you say that.
More logically the indicated speeds are loaded speeds,and there is more (wind, tyres) resistance at a higher speed, raising the slowing influence.
At least that is how I explained the difference for myself.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by gogo » Apr 18 2014 5:21pm

knutselmaaster wrote:Ah I see why you say that.
More logically the indicated speeds are loaded speeds,and there is more (wind, tyres) resistance at a higher speed, raising the slowing influence.
At least that is how I explained the difference for myself.
15/25=1.667 @36V
18/30=1.667 @48V
It would make sense to shift before top speed in 1st because 2nd gear would have more torque. I'll bet d8veh doesn't linger for very long in the low torque of the upper reaches of 1st gear, so effectively its 1:2 for his style of thrill seeking.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 18 2014 5:30pm

Isn't the difference in speed between 36v an 48v the same as the voltage ratio, eg 3/4?
18/48*36 does not make 15
Etc

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gogo   10 MW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by gogo » Apr 18 2014 11:00pm

knutselmaaster wrote:Isn't the difference in speed between 36v an 48v the same as the voltage ratio, eg 3/4?
18/48*36 does not make 15
Etc
You're right, the numbers don't all agree.
We have a range identified for the low/high gear ratio. I'll leave it at that until someone can count the actual teeth numbers.
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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 19 2014 4:59am

I've just taken some measurements. According to the display supplied, which measures the speed from a hall sensor in the motor, at 46.6v (no load), the speeds are 22.2 and 36.2 km/h. From a separate speedometer with a wheel magnet, I get 14.0 and 22.6 mph. That's pretty close then. I calculate then that with a 36v battery at 39v, you'll get 12 and 19 mph.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 19 2014 5:41am

That fits my idea that the 36v version is designed to comply to the European laws of 25 km/h at 250 watts.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 20 2014 5:08am

You get 20% more speed and power with 12S lipos, which also make it run quieter.

I'm now doing a long-term test with 36v. I soldered the shunt a bit to increase the current a bit for even better hill-climbing

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 20 2014 5:16am

That makes 44v right?
So that makes 15a*44v=660w maximum power consumption?
Strange as I had the impression that W*0.1 give an approach on the speed in km/h
As 250w is 25 km/h here in Europe, and I understand that 350w will get almost 35km/h
But maybe its just the European law that confuses me...

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Arbol » Apr 20 2014 5:26am

And 2.5kW give 250km/h? I want that!

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 20 2014 5:37am

Lol, I understand that it is to a certain state as resistance is not a straight line (sorry can't find the word) but if 250 does 25 km/h and with about 400w you can get 35 km/h I don't understand where those 260 extra watt go.
Should I see it like, it is possible to maintain that 35 km/h top speed even with wind or when climbing, as the top speed depends on the maximum rotation speed of the engine and the watts I have more than needed for that speed can be used as extra torque???

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Arbol » Apr 20 2014 5:47am

A typical formula is:

max speed = 25km/h * (wheel / 26'') * (rpm of motor/201) * (voltage of battery / 36V) * 1.1

So, max speed is basically independent of current and, as a consequence and counterintuitively, independent of power (the only dependence is power needs to be enough to get there, of course; with amperage = 0A, you do not get that max speed).

Speed depends on geometry, gearing and voltage, nothing else.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by crossbreak » Apr 20 2014 12:48pm

any intend to open such a motor? I'm waiting keen to see some internals. Still looking for a descent small motor and bought this one recently:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 30&t=53939

I opened it already and posted some pics..

:)

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Pete1961 » Apr 25 2014 11:04am

I see a throttle mentioned here, & also it being spoken of as a pedelec, are there two different versions of the kit? The 3 position switch (Hi - Lo or auto) I can follow, but am a bit confused as to weather it will run throttle only - or needs constant 'shadow' pedaling to keep it moving (something I hate)
Otherwise it seems a promising small motor with good torque in low speed & a sensible cruising speed - without needing a large expensive battpack to run it.
I was asking about this item a few weeks ago, but working flat out (& the fact we only have one laptop in the family) meant I lost touch, sorry, but thanks for taking a punt on it d8veh. I hope to get one when funds permit. I guess it is too early to say weather this or a mid drive is the best way forward?

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » Apr 26 2014 8:05am

It has an independent throttle that you can use at any time and a five-level PAS setting that you set in the LCD. You don't have to pedal to use the throttle.

The three position switch is for the the internal gear-changing. It's completely independent of other controls.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 26 2014 8:52am

Any news on the newer model d8veh?
Did you receive it yet?
I'm very impatient to hear because i decided to wait for your much appreciated opinion before ordering some.
If the new controller really is sine wave and much more quiet i will certainly take them :)

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by z50king » Apr 27 2014 12:12pm

How much does the new controller cost?
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knutselmaaster   1 kW

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » Apr 27 2014 12:50pm

I don't think they sell in detail.
The new controller should be included if you order a kit from now on I hope.
Before ordering I want to be sure about that, maybe someone can confirm that?
I will recontact the seller tomorrow to get more information.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Pete1961 » Apr 27 2014 1:06pm

Does the new controller (or for that matter the old one in case they send it) have an adjustable low voltage cut off point, or if not is the LV optimized for a particular batt chemistry (think the Chinese banned SLA so I doubt it would be set for that) I am thinking of the possibility of Li Co Mn vs Lipo - or even Ni Zn if it takes off. I'm just thinking that as it is a specialized controller (i.e. one that can reverse & gives full motor speed in both directions) substitution would be difficult. just thinking of getting the full range from a particular batt type

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » May 02 2014 4:50am

A little bit more about the noise:

After 100 miles the noise got worse to the point of bugging me, so I opened the motor to see what's going on. The black grease had gone thick and waxy, so I cleaned off what I could and applied my own gear grease. Now the motor is as quiet as any. It only makes that nice electrical hum. It only takes about 15 minutes to do the complete job including removing the wheel. It's a little bit fiddly to get the gears meshed together. The technique is to rotate the planetary gear plate until the inner output gear can be assembled to it, then remove the output gear and assemble it to the side-plate. When you assemble the side-plate, the inner output gear will then fit into the planetary gears so that it goes together.

The controller is just a standard one with the normal fixed (at about 31v) LVC. Interestingly i have some other controllers that have a pair of brown wires for reversing a motor's direction. I think I'll keep a couple as spares in case of any problems with the Xiongda ones. They will only allow manual gear-changing, but that's better than none.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » May 02 2014 5:00am

Please tell me about the build quality, now that you have opened it.
Are the bearings and cogs big enough and strong enough?
I am ready to buy some for a project but i want to be sure before investing...
Thank you very much d8veh!

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by Pete1961 » May 02 2014 5:23pm

It did cross my mind that a std (but more watts) controller could be used if the method of reversing two of the phase coulors & reversing the same pair of hall coulors would reverse the motor direction. A 36v relay that breaks four poles & makes four more on energizing would be needed. I think either Radio Shack or Tandy sold similar, & remember it being used to shift between star & delta on converted 408 motors - until it was proved that this was only a speed limiting measure & there was virtually no torque increase, so this fell out of favour. I do not say try this - but just an idea if all else failed (some reversing controllers were meant for trikes & have a speed limited reverse.I gather the Chinese domestic ebike law has followed Europe in that 250w continuous is their limit (& imposed a 40 Kg max weight on top) but not perhaps the pedelec thing.(source - a Chinese maker of Ni Zn bike batts website) & wondered if this inspired the making of the 2 speed motor, guess the Mac, Magic Pie etc are for export only. I do take the Mac owner's point that more amps gives more torque only when needed & thus the hill is climbed at higher speed, but the 43 Nm of the two speed would take some beating. (I do remember a sticky with motor to non original controller wiring set ups that were known to work, cannot seem to find it now) Keywin said I could put 500w throu my old GI HBM 36 (409 clone) - Never had the amps on SLA to do this in the past

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by d8veh » May 03 2014 3:59am

knutselmaaster wrote:Please tell me about the build quality, now that you have opened it.
Are the bearings and cogs big enough and strong enough?
I am ready to buy some for a project but i want to be sure before investing...
Thank you very much d8veh!
I've disassembled many motors. This one looks very tidy, and I don't see anything inside to worry about. The only unknown thing is the noise. Hopefully, it's fixed by using a different grade of grease. Nothing inside was loose enough to make any noise. They also say that their new controller solves it. For your own bike, it takes about 15 minutes to fix by regreasing, but it could work out expensive for OEM. The noise mine made was enough to cause any reasonable customer to want to return the bike. I know of at least one early OEM adopter. I think that things might get messy for him. I've told Xiongda about the grease. Maybe they'll change something in the future. Maybe I was just unlucky to get contaminated grease or something. Nobody else has yet reported their findings.

I did my first proper journey yesterday since re-greasing. The motor was very quiet all the time - quieter than a Bafang SWX. If they could make them all like that, they'll sell like hotcakes.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by knutselmaaster » May 03 2014 4:18am

Thank you so much for your reply.
As you say, there is no other feedback to be found anywhere.

If the build quality is good than it is fine for me.
I don't mind preparing them before i use or sell them.
As i want to be sure that materials i sell are in top condition i had already planned to finetune before shipping/usage.

i will buy 2 for testing and prototyping then.
I will share my experience here.

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Re: 2 Speed Motor

Post by crossbreak » May 03 2014 7:00am

isn't that almost the same what Justin patented as well?

http://www.google.st/patents/US20120302390
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