Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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The Toecutter   100 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 30 2021 6:17pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 30 2021 1:58pm
could just ban drinking? Just a thought.
I love riding my electric velo intoxicated. The only one at risk is myself, and it is loads of fun. The only close calls or accidents I've had riding either of my velos, I was 100% sober, oddly enough. When I use either for work, I ride sober, but when riding for fun, I'll gladly ride non-sober.

I wouldn't dare ride a donut-wheeled scooter intoxicated. A normal 26"-wheeled unmotorized upright road bike is scary enough in that state.

Building a 1000W 3T wind Leafbike motor into a 16" wheel would be interesting. A full-suspension racing cart with one on each wheel, each of the 4 motors powered by a Nucular controller, would be sick. Just think of the acceleration potential in that!
Custom electric velomobile, 2500W: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110298

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Jan 02 2022 2:23pm

Popped open my new motor in order to add Statorade and the thermistor. The motor opened up easily, no need for using a puller, and the cable side cover came off just by wiggling it a little. The screws were pretty loose, barely more than hand tightened.

I traced the white thermistor wire and it appears to terminate at the same spot as the ground wire :shock: , which seemed odd. I retraced the wiring, and can't see where the stock thermistor may be located or wired. I check for continuity and found something more odd. Measuring between the ground/black and thermistor wire/white at the connector, shows 580 ohms between them, so it's as though the thermistor is somewhere in series with the white wire at the connector and the white wire that terminates in the motor. But, there's nowhere that I can see where the thermistor branches off between the two points. Any thoughts? Black to black is 0 ohms as expected.

I'm warming up my soldering iron to disconnect the white wire on the stator and then measuring between the two points again, but so far it's a mystery. I do see some room between the windings where I an stuff the new thermistor into.
therm 2.JPG
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The other side where the cable enters from the axle.
therm 1.JPG
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EDIT: Same measurement when the white wire was unsoldered, so decided to pull the wire from the cloth sleeve and I found it. Not embedded in the coils like I expected, but just under the cloth sleeve in the middle of the stator, so I guess would only measure the internal air temp. Plus, it looks more like a diode than a thermistor; just odd.
I also noticed when stuffing the new thermistor under a space in one of the windings that it's super sensitive. Even touching the winding will change the resistance from heat from my fingers going through the copper coils. Seems like a better location, so will JB weld it there, solder it up, them move to adding the Statorade. Hopefully I have the wheel relaced by the end of the day, but maybe not trued by then.
IMG_7943.JPG
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markz   100 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Jan 02 2022 2:55pm

Your motor must have been built on a Friday near closing time.

Is the added pcb board new or have they been doing that for awhile?

I literally can not remember if mine had a pcb board, but I think I would have remember if it did. I use an unsensored controller so I only use phase wires and just tucked the sense wires inside motor.

The 35H Leaf 1500 watt motor is a great motor, a motor I should have bought instead of the 45H MXUS 3000W which I still have and might rewind but I have no idea if the magnets have degraded due to the over heating.

Its very odd the white wire is soldered to the black ground wire of the hall sensors, it could be they just wanted to tuck the wire out of the way and never installed the thermistor or themistor is installed and the new guy did their work on your motor.

Find the routing of the white wire and find the thermistor.

Whats the range of resistance the halls would have over a thermistor?

edit
Yeah thats what I thought, take the sleeving away and see.

Now you know :thumb:

The new guy or last shift on a Friday :lol:

Do take lots of pictures of installing it in the right location.

EDIT: Same measurement when the white wire was unsoldered, so decided to pull the wire from the cloth sleeve and I found it. Not embedded in the coils like I expected, but just under the cloth sleeve in the middle of the stator, so I guess would only measure the internal air temp. Plus, it looks more like a diode than a thermistor; just odd.
I also noticed when stuffing the new thermistor under a space in one of the windings that it's super sensitive. Even touching the winding will change the resistance from heat from my fingers going through the copper coils. Seems like a better location, so will JB weld it there, solder it up, them move to adding the Statorade. Hopefully I have the wheel relaced by the end of the day, but maybe not trued by then.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Jan 02 2022 3:21pm

markz wrote:
Jan 02 2022 2:55pm
edit
Yeah thats what I thought, take the sleeving away and see.

Now you know :thumb:

The new guy or last shift on a Friday :lol:

Do take lots of pictures of installing it in the right location.
Here's a pic of the installation. Unsoldered the stock unit, connected one of the new thermistor leads to the incoming white wire and the other to the ground on the PCB. Added some JB weld to the thermistor and slid it under one of the looser coils (top middle of the pic), but feels like it makes good contact when inserted. I routed the wires along the stator and added a dab of JB weld in a couple of spots to keep the wires in place. Now on to the Statorade, reassembly, and delacing the rim.
IMG_7946.JPG
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074J ... UTF8&psc=1

I know most epoxies give off a little heat when curing, and it's funny that the thermistor picks up on that, since the resistance dropped after adding the JB weld. If I touch the coil above the sensor, it drops even more, so seems to be working.
markz wrote:
Jan 02 2022 2:55pm

Its very odd the white wire is soldered to the black ground wire of the hall sensors, it could be they just wanted to tuck the wire out of the way and never installed the thermistor or themistor is installed and the new guy did their work on your motor.
I think it's in order to only run one additional wire out of the motor by using a common ground.

Put the motor back together and ready to start the delacing. The resistance of the thermistor has gone back up to 10k ohms now that the JB weld is mostly cured, compared to 8k ohms when it was curing. The Statorade was fun to play with while applying it. Cool to see it flow uphill when you apply it near the bottom of the magnets :o
IMG_7951.JPG
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Last edited by E-HP on Jan 02 2022 10:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

calab   100 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by calab » Jan 02 2022 9:14pm

What are you delacing and relacing?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Jan 02 2022 10:38pm

calab wrote:
Jan 02 2022 9:14pm
What are you delacing and relacing?

Taking off the 26" rim that came with it, and changing it to a wider 24" rim and 3" plus size tire. I'm thinking about building a new front wheel too, and reusing the one I have now for my next project, since I'll need a 26" disc front wheel anyway. I'll lose about 3/4" of clearance, since the new tires are a little under 1 1/2" smaller in diameter. I'm basically looking for more air volume, but something that still fits in the frame. A little more stand over clearance will be nice too.

I'll reuse the Leaf's 26" rim for my existing motor, since I'm not sure how much longer the crappy rim on that motor will last, and this rim looks decent/better.

The relacing is going OK so far, but my 30 year old spoke wrench isn't up to the task and it chewed up a few nipples. Ordered a new wrench and more nipples, but at least the wheel is laced now. I'm a little worried that the spokes might be a little too long, so I won't know until I get them more tightened down. :shock: Spoke angle isn't too bad, or not much worse than with 26".
Laced.jpg
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by calab » Jan 02 2022 11:16pm

Spoke angle from the calculator is one thing but the nipple doesnt rotate nice on the rim thats why you see the spoke angled more and bending to reach the flange some angle drill the rim if they arent riveted holes or find some special nipples that can rotate polyax https://www.sapim.be/nipples/design/polyax

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Jan 02 2022 11:56pm

calab wrote:
Jan 02 2022 11:16pm
Spoke angle from the calculator is one thing but the nipple doesnt rotate nice on the rim thats why you see the spoke angled more and bending to reach the flange some angle drill the rim if they arent riveted holes or find some special nipples that can rotate polyax https://www.sapim.be/nipples/design/polyax
Those would be ideal except that I need 13gauge since I'd using Sapim Strong 12/13 single butted spokes. Which means I need these to work with my rim: https://wheelbuilder.com/sapim-brass-re ... ipple-13g/

Compared to the straight 12 gauge spokes that most hub motors come with, these are more flexible, so I think I can get them tightened up and in decent shape. If I were doing it over, I might go with straight 14 gauge with washers, and the polyax nipples, which could still happen if these spokes turn out to be too long.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by calab » Jan 03 2022 12:00am

You know how some rims have that extra lip of metal around the nipple hole I just call that riveted not sure of the technical name. 24 inch on a 1 cross lacing means more angle might have to drill nipple holes on the rim and make it work you know what your doing

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Jan 03 2022 1:09am

neptronix wrote:
Dec 29 2021 10:19am
The only way to get scooter-like power density is to take something akin to a 94% efficient RC motor ( astro, maytech? ), put that 4lb motor through two reductions.. what you probably see is 90% peak efficiency with a 8lbs motor + reduction assembly..
I do wish we saw pre-built bikes with that type of arrangement......specifically left side drive with a planetary gearbox for the first reduction (which also functions as an output shaft support).

1. Such an arrangement wouldn't widen and/or make uneven the bike's q factor (cranks).

2. High amount of Regeneration would be possible without needing a small wheel. (Although I am not against small wheels. A small wheel can be advantageous).

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 03 2022 9:11am

by E-HP » Jan 02 2022 11:56pm
Looks like my 26" with a leafmotor. Have not had any issues, just keep the spokes tight and stress relieve them. The small spokes (what I use) 13/14 spam strong will handle the bends.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jan 03 2022 2:39pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Dec 30 2021 6:17pm
ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 30 2021 1:58pm
could just ban drinking? Just a thought.
I love riding my electric velo intoxicated. The only one at risk is myself, and it is loads of fun. The only close calls or accidents I've had riding either of my velos, I was 100% sober, oddly enough. When I use either for work, I ride sober, but when riding for fun, I'll gladly ride non-sober.
It's the ultimate drunk driver mobile. The impact from one is not big deal to a car. The impact inside one is much lower than a bike or on foot.

Honestly i see semi recumbents the same way. I feel a lot more daring on mine than on an upright because i know the fall won't be as bad.

To have a shell also would be awesome. or at least a sweet side fairing to take the hit for you, like the semi recumbent motorcycle from Akira.
https___hypebeast.com_image_2017_05_jordan-peele-direct-live-action-akira-tw.jpg
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The Toecutter wrote:
Dec 30 2021 6:17pm
Building a 1000W 3T wind Leafbike motor into a 16" wheel would be interesting. A full-suspension racing cart with one on each wheel, each of the 4 motors powered by a Nucular controller, would be sick. Just think of the acceleration potential in that!
When i was rocking 6kw on my ebike, i would have guys in V8 sports cars asking me what the hell i had from stoplights. Can't imagine what you'd do with 4 times that power.. maybe attempt a run on the salt flats? :mrgreen:
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jan 03 2022 3:09pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Jan 03 2022 1:09am
I do wish we saw pre-built bikes with that type of arrangement......specifically left side drive with a planetary gearbox for the first reduction (which also functions as an output shaft support).

1. Such an arrangement wouldn't widen and/or make uneven the bike's q factor (cranks).

2. High amount of Regeneration would be possible without needing a small wheel. (Although I am not against small wheels. A small wheel can be advantageous).
You can get incredible amounts of regneration in a big wheel. I had my leaf sucking up 1kW and dumping it into my RC Lipo batteries. The braking was actually too strong. Too bad they didn't have anything other than an on/off lever for brake handles back then.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by silentbike » Jan 05 2022 12:26am

Anyone using VESC with this motor? Feeding 120 phase amps with esk8 controller, not bad but tune could be improved. Feel like it could have more punch standstill. It's FOC though and totally silent. Night and day difference from kunteng. Not bad for $89

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by HK12K » Jan 09 2022 4:17pm

silentbike wrote:
Jan 05 2022 12:26am
Anyone using VESC with this motor? Feeding 120 phase amps with esk8 controller, not bad but tune could be improved. Feel like it could have more punch standstill. It's FOC though and totally silent. Night and day difference from kunteng. Not bad for $89
I'm using a 24f but I allow it to provide 150 battery and 300 phase to my 4t leaf, on a Giant Revive. Plenty of punch 👊

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jan 10 2022 5:28am

HK12K wrote:
Jan 09 2022 4:17pm
I'm using a 24f but I allow it to provide 150 battery and 300 phase to my 4t leaf, on a Giant Revive. Plenty of punch 👊
Very interested in the Giant Revive!
I did a very placid conversion to one for a family member recently and loved it:


Does the rear suspension move ok with the Leaf? Did you use a 30 or 35mm motor?

I would be a bit worried about it making it quite sluggish as I found recently when I put a RH212 in my BikeE AT.

I am going to convert another Giant Revive (2WD, Fat tire, front suspension) I was thinking about going with a small geared in the front and DD in the rear. The 30mm Leaf is on my list of motors to consider for the rear, but I was hoping to get something lighter if possible.

Cheers

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by HK12K » Jan 10 2022 6:20pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Jan 10 2022 5:28am
Very interested in the Giant Revive!
I did a very placid conversion to one for a family member recently and loved it:


Does the rear suspension move ok with the Leaf? Did you use a 30 or 35mm motor?

I would be a bit worried about it making it quite sluggish as I found recently when I put a RH212 in my BikeE AT.

I am going to convert another Giant Revive (2WD, Fat tire, front suspension) I was thinking about going with a small geared in the front and DD in the rear. The 30mm Leaf is on my list of motors to consider for the rear, but I was hoping to get something lighter if possible.

Cheers
I'm running the 35mm and for what little travel the suspension has the weight of the rear wheel hasn't seemed to impact it noticably. It does the job of keeping the tire in contact with the pavement pretty well even at high speeds (my top speed is 57mph). That said because of the limited travel and my 200lb+ weight it's best for me to unweight the seattle when going over noticable bumps or I am likely to bottom out the suspension. Happily the geometry allows for such unweighting, though I'd avoid standing totally upright on the pedals because the handling gets incredibly twitchy.

I also added a short travel 20" suspension fork up front which improved ride comfort significantly. The slight change in geometry due to the taller fork made the bike much more stable at both low and high speeds without a negative impact on cornering. If anything the opposite, it slowed things down enough to be more manageable. Highly recommend.

When I first bought this bike it came equipped with an old 250w Hilltopper kit on it with the OEM rigid fork. Geared front motor with what amounted to an on/off button for a throttle. I didn't hate it but the wheelspin from a stop and the increased harshness that seemed to be translated to the handlebars were a turn off for me. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought of making mine 2wd as well, but the bike works great as a rear motor. That said, the fwd incarnation was actually pretty good in the snow.
Last edited by HK12K on Jan 10 2022 8:00pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by HK12K » Jan 10 2022 7:10pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
I just realized the bike in the video was your build. Nicely done! I love the wire routing and would have never thought to have diy'd an internal battery.

Don't overestimate the amount of clearance between the tail of the bike and the tire. I put 2.25" Shinko 714's on mine and though I think they're great for my application I can't even run the thinnest of thin rear fenders. I put a mucky nuts downtube fender on the tail section which was as thin as paper and it disappeared after hitting a 2x railroad crossing at speed.

At full compression my rear tire just clears the frame with pretty much nothing to spare. The planet bike full fender never had a chance, haha.

Not sure how the 2.25x16 714's and a fat tire compare in height, but food for thought.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jan 11 2022 3:34am

HK12K wrote:
Jan 10 2022 7:10pm
Cowardlyduck wrote:
I just realized the bike in the video was your build. Nicely done! I love the wire routing and would have never thought to have diy'd an internal battery.

Don't overestimate the amount of clearance between the tail of the bike and the tire. I put 2.25" Shinko 714's on mine and though I think they're great for my application I can't even run the thinnest of thin rear fenders. I put a mucky nuts downtube fender on the tail section which was as thin as paper and it disappeared after hitting a 2x railroad crossing at speed.

At full compression my rear tire just clears the frame with pretty much nothing to spare. The planet bike full fender never had a chance, haha.

Not sure how the 2.25x16 714's and a fat tire compare in height, but food for thought.
Thanks for the comments!

I have to replace the rear shock anyway, so it sounds like a longer shock would make a lot of sense then. :D

To prevent further polluting this thread, I did what I've been intending to for some time and started a new thread for Giant Revive conversions as it seems there are quite a few.
Giant Revive conversions

Please jump over there to discuss further. :)

Cheers

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by silentbike » Jan 21 2022 11:27am

HK12K wrote:
Jan 09 2022 4:17pm
silentbike wrote:
Jan 05 2022 12:26am
Anyone using VESC with this motor? Feeding 120 phase amps with esk8 controller, not bad but tune could be improved. Feel like it could have more punch standstill. It's FOC though and totally silent. Night and day difference from kunteng. Not bad for $89
I'm using a 24f but I allow it to provide 150 battery and 300 phase to my 4t leaf, on a Giant Revive. Plenty of punch 👊
Hi

I'm curious how are your temps with this setup and have you done any cooling mods.
I will be getting vesc 100/250 ,has similar peformance to Nuc 24F

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by HK12K » Jan 21 2022 11:19pm

No cooling mods. I just rely on thermal rollback to keep me safe, and though I've never actually hit it I have approached it during long summertime rides. For the most part though temps haven't been an issue as I get up to speed rather quickly and amp draw drops rapidly once I do. Though I will hit top speed periodically throughout my ride my average cruising speed is usually between 30-40mph. This is a road going bike with 20" wheels so extreme off-road inclines aren't a concern and bike weight isn't particularly extreme. My commute doesn't include many hills but in nicer months I do tend to encounter some on longer rides so I try to make sure I carry enough speed to traverse them quickly so heat doesn't build, but also without getting too trigger happy and dumping so much amperage that it heats up.

All of that said, I'm actually planning on adding ff and hubsinks anyway. Hard to argue with improved cooling.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Jan 22 2022 10:49am

HK12K wrote:
Jan 21 2022 11:19pm
No cooling mods. I just rely on thermal rollback to keep me safe, and though I've never actually hit it I have approached it during long summertime rides. For the most part though temps haven't been an issue as I get up to speed rather quickly and amp draw drops rapidly once I do. Though I will hit top speed periodically throughout my ride my average cruising speed is usually between 30-40mph. This is a road going bike with 20" wheels so extreme off-road inclines aren't a concern and bike weight isn't particularly extreme. My commute doesn't include many hills but in nicer months I do tend to encounter some on longer rides so I try to make sure I carry enough speed to traverse them quickly so heat doesn't build, but also without getting too trigger happy and dumping so much amperage that it heats up.

All of that said, I'm actually planning on adding ff and hubsinks anyway. Hard to argue with improved cooling.
I haven't started recording temp data yet, but so far I have similar observations. I noticed that even two or three trigger happy burst of acceleration can result is a pretty quick rise, so if it's measuring 25C, it will be 50C a minute later. That's maybe with ~4.5kw peaks. But, under sustained loads, like a steep incline, the temps will rise at a slow measured pace (around maybe ~2.5kw). I've also noticed that regen down the same hill will heat the motor up about as fast as the motor under load going up the hill. But regen is only 500W, while climbing is 2500W, so efficiency is low and losses high under regen.

Also, ambient temp plays a big role, which indicates to me that any level of heat sinking applied to the housing will have a noticeable effect, so I'm expecting my low profile heat sink experiment has promise. I have Statorade already.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Jan 28 2022 5:31pm

I suspected that a fried one or more of my hall sensors during my ride last Sunday. I was riding up a muddy trail, and at one point had a standing start, uphill, with my rear tire stuck in 4" of mud. The leaf powered through that, and I rode several more miles up and down hills, but later during the ride, when I started off from a stop sign on pavement, the motor let out a loud groan, and had trouble starting up. That happened a few more times on the way home, but seemed to stop when the motor cooled down. I also lost regen at one point, but it came back 5 minutes later. But for the last few miles of my ride, the motor functioned as smooth as glass and silent.

Today I decided to head up the hill, testing my motor temps, throttle only. The temp steadily rose from 25C up to about 65C near the top, but then the motor started groaning again. It kept doing that under any sort of throttle or regen, but seemed to run Ok if I kept it at a medium throttle once it was going.

Testing some more at home, I noticed when the wheel is stopped in certain positions, there's no movement under throttle, but moving the wheel a little would get it spinning, but pulling around 220W no load, so 3X normal. My conclusion is that one of the hall sensors may have fried due to heat, and the ride up the hill today sealed it's fate.

Anyway, asking first whether that sounds about right. And second, ,'


On Sunday's ride, it hit a max of just over 90C, when I pulled over to let the motor cool. Today, the issue occurred at 65C, although it kept rising a little more to 80C. Neither seems high enough to fry the sensors, at least in that short a period at those temps.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jan 28 2022 6:29pm

I've dealt with intermittent issues like that before and unfortunately it could be anything between the controller and motor...including the controller.

I would start by cracking open the motor and testing the hall sensors. Get yourself one of those cheap generic 'ebike' testers and use a magnet to see that the hall sensors operate normally. Also check that they are securely held in place. A loose hall sensor can cause this kind of issue.

Also use the same ebike tester to test your controller outputs, and thoroughly check your wires, especially through the axle.

Cheers

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by E-HP » Jan 28 2022 6:47pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Jan 28 2022 6:29pm
I've dealt with intermittent issues like that before and unfortunately it could be anything between the controller and motor...including the controller.

I would start by cracking open the motor and testing the hall sensors. Get yourself one of those cheap generic 'ebike' testers and use a magnet to see that the hall sensors operate normally. Also check that they are securely held in place. A loose hall sensor can cause this kind of issue.

Also use the same ebike tester to test your controller outputs, and thoroughly check your wires, especially through the axle.

Cheers
Thanks. That's pretty much the sequence I'll be going through. Interesting about the loose sensor though; something I'll need to check if the problem isn't obvious. I seems like it was dying a slow death once it got heated up the first time, and today's ride pushed it over the edge. Any ideas about what sensors are installed in the Leaf from the factory?

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