Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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The Toecutter   100 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 25 2021 5:02pm

E-HP wrote:
Dec 25 2021 1:29pm
Here's "System A" with half the current and twice the current. But with double the current, the max torque is still the same at 300 N-M
That's interesting. It makes sense when you consider that a higher voltage increases the rpm with which the motor can produce a given torque output. Increasing the applied voltage will increase the amount of BEMF required for flux saturation to be achieved as well. This is why field weakening can increase top speed for a given voltage. That said, the simulator is said to not account for flux saturation, so in reality, the motor should make significantly less torque at those extreme current levels you simulated it at. It would be interesting to play with the motor on a dyno to really see what it is doing at these operating points.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 25 2021 5:20pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Dec 25 2021 5:02pm
E-HP wrote:
Dec 25 2021 1:29pm
Here's "System A" with half the current and twice the current. But with double the current, the max torque is still the same at 300 N-M
That's interesting. It makes sense when you consider that a higher voltage increases the rpm with which the motor can produce a given torque output. Increasing the applied voltage will increase the amount of BEMF required for flux saturation to be achieved as well. This is why field weakening can increase top speed for a given voltage. That said, the simulator is said to not account for flux saturation, so in reality, the motor should make significantly less torque at those extreme current levels you simulated it at. It would be interesting to play with the motor on a dyno to really see what it is doing at these operating points.
I've seen YouTube videos comparing Dyno apps (smartphone) to a real Dyno (e.g. dynojet) and they do come out pretty close.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by calab » Dec 25 2021 8:46pm

if your into racing looks easy to make but deceiving
SimulatorV2.jpg
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 25 2021 9:16pm

With most motors other than the leafmotor, windings are limited. This is why people try to limit the voltage or go to a small wheel.
Now everyone wants a 20" wheel. Same with the big high amp controllers. This is why the leafmotor stands out and is popular. You can configure it from one extreme to the other and still have some gears.

I can't warm up to a 20", have them on the front of my trike but with the leaf you can run a much larger wheel and get more turns in the motor to help. Not talking about which one is better. we all know that down to a 20" wheel is better until it comes to lacing the big motor in the rim. So glad that we lost the misnomer torque motor. You can get just as much torque in any winding just need the amps. That is if you can get them thru the axel.

My setup has more torque than is required and hits my top speed easily. But still thinking abut a smaller wheel and one less turn in the motor to look for max efficiency for my setup. Which bigger wires need to be shoe horned thru axle.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 25 2021 10:25pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 25 2021 9:16pm
With most motors other than the leafmotor, windings are limited. This is why people try to limit the voltage or go to a small wheel.
Now everyone wants a 20" wheel. Same with the big high amp controllers. This is why the leafmotor stands out and is popular. You can configure it from one extreme to the other and still have some gears.

I can't warm up to a 20", have them on the front of my trike but with the leaf you can run a much larger wheel and get more turns in the motor to help. Not talking about which one is better. we all know that down to a 20" wheel is better until it comes to lacing the big motor in the rim. So glad that we lost the misnomer torque motor. You can get just as much torque in any winding just need the amps. That is if you can get them thru the axel.

My setup has more torque than is required and hits my top speed easily. But still thinking abut a smaller wheel and one less turn in the motor to look for max efficiency for my setup. Which bigger wires need to be shoe horned thru axle.
A faster wind at 48v/52v makes more power for any given battery and controller assuming you can make the wheel diameter small enough to achieve the necessary rpms. (We see this happen in the grin simulator every time)

But what about going above 52v? We see power tool companies like DeWalt and others using 120v (actually 30s) for common hand power tools. We also see companies like Rion using 96v in the electric push scooter market:

https://youtu.be/Nn-IqhezeZw

Also I just noticed 126v unicycles are now a thing.

Why not emopeds?
Last edited by ebike4healthandfitness on Dec 25 2021 11:55pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by calab » Dec 25 2021 10:53pm

Some of those higher power tool batteries have two voltages but split the pack in half to achieve results like 20v/60v flex volt dewalt, the ego's are 52v but dont split the voltage for a different tool.

9.0ah at 20Vs capacity.
That means only 3.0ah running at 60Vs

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 26 2021 7:42am

There's a youtube on a teardown of that DeWalt pack. It's 15S / 1P on certain tools, and 5S / 3P on their main line of tools.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 26 2021 10:08am

LowT.png
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any controller and batter as long as it's 48-52V with a small wheel.
Yes, small wheel low turn count uses more power!
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The Toecutter   100 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 26 2021 12:05pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 25 2021 10:25pm
Why not emopeds?
I'm keeping an eye on the next gen FOC controllers that are about to hit the market that can go into the triple-digit voltage range. 130V in a 3T wind 1500W Leafbike built into a 20" diameter drive wheel could theoretically get me 110+ mph top end. And assuming wheelspin can be addressed, 0-60 mph acceleration faster than the average new car is also possible. Currently, it takes something akin to JohninCR's hubmonster build to have this level of performance.

The Death Trike is also a good inspiration, as is recumpence's custom build.



That kind of power, in a vehicle whose chassis has just barely been modified enough to reliably handle it(in the interest of keeping weight down), with a slippery velomobile shell and roll cage slipped over it, is a ticket to levels of efficiency that can't be matched by any other vehicle type, with safety levels somewhat superior to that of a motorcycle even if not as good as a car. And the performance will be quite car-like as a nice bonus. And because it could still be pedaled(by keeping the weight somewhere around 100 lbs), range anxiety would be non-existent. A modest 1.5-2 kWh battery would go a long way in such a vehicle, yielding 100+ miles range at highway speeds, and greatly more at city-appropriate speeds(My 1.5 kWh pack gets me up to 150-200 miles range cruising 30-35 mph in a vehicle not nearly as slippery as what I'm proposing to build).

It would be nice if Leafbike would just build a much better motor already. They'd have no competition and could possibly make a lot more money in the Western markets. The potential for them to build a motor that peaks at over 97% efficiency and gets 90-95% efficiency over most of its operating curve is there, meaning they could cut the mass in half and still get a slightly increased peak power capability while retaining the same continuous power capability vs their existing offering. The existing hub motors on the market are well behind the state of the technology by more than a decade. The fact that Leafbike is one of the best out there for ebikes says a lot, especially given how low its price is relative to its competition.

Three Leafbike motors in such a vehicle with the bicycle drivetrain and steering bars removed and rack and pinion steering, accelerator/brake pedals in their place, would be fairly insane as the motor currently is. A 150 lb "car" that is ~350 lbs laden using a 1500W 3T wind in each 16x1.5" motorcycle wheel with a 130V FOC controller running each, and a LoneStar battery pack, would easily do 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and 12 second 1/4 miles, if you could get enough traction. Upgrading that motor to existing technology could allow the possibility of more than 1 peak horsepower per pound of empty vehicle, with all wheel drive, which might mean 0-120 mph in ~4.5 to 5 seconds and upper 8 second 1/4 miles. In a vehicle that could do 100+ miles at highway speeds on less than $0.20 worth of electricity. DO WANT.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 26 2021 1:50pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Dec 26 2021 12:05pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 25 2021 10:25pm
Why not emopeds?
I'm keeping an eye on the next gen FOC controllers that are about to hit the market that can go into the triple-digit voltage range. 130V in a 3T wind 1500W Leafbike built into a 20" diameter drive wheel could theoretically get me 110+ mph top end. And assuming wheelspin can be addressed, 0-60 mph acceleration faster than the average new car is also possible. Currently, it takes something akin to JohninCR's hubmonster build to have this level of performance.

The Death Trike is also a good inspiration, as is recumpence's custom build.



That kind of power, in a vehicle whose chassis has just barely been modified enough to reliably handle it(in the interest of keeping weight down), with a slippery velomobile shell and roll cage slipped over it, is a ticket to levels of efficiency that can't be matched by any other vehicle type, with safety levels somewhat superior to that of a motorcycle even if not as good as a car. And the performance will be quite car-like as a nice bonus. And because it could still be pedaled(by keeping the weight somewhere around 100 lbs), range anxiety would be non-existent. A modest 1.5-2 kWh battery would go a long way in such a vehicle, yielding 100+ miles range at highway speeds, and greatly more at city-appropriate speeds(My 1.5 kWh pack gets me up to 150-200 miles range cruising 30-35 mph in a vehicle not nearly as slippery as what I'm proposing to build).

It would be nice if Leafbike would just build a much better motor already. They'd have no competition and could possibly make a lot more money in the Western markets. The potential for them to build a motor that peaks at over 97% efficiency and gets 90-95% efficiency over most of its operating curve is there, meaning they could cut the mass in half and still get a slightly increased peak power capability while retaining the same continuous power capability vs their existing offering. The existing hub motors on the market are well behind the state of the technology by more than a decade. The fact that Leafbike is one of the best out there for ebikes says a lot, especially given how low its price is relative to its competition.

Three Leafbike motors in such a vehicle with the bicycle drivetrain and steering bars removed and rack and pinion steering, accelerator/brake pedals in their place, would be fairly insane as the motor currently is. A 150 lb "car" that is ~350 lbs laden using a 1500W 3T wind in each 16x1.5" motorcycle wheel with a 130V FOC controller running each, and a LoneStar battery pack, would easily do 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and 12 second 1/4 miles, if you could get enough traction. Upgrading that motor to existing technology could allow the possibility of more than 1 peak horsepower per pound of empty vehicle, with all wheel drive, which might mean 0-120 mph in ~4.5 to 5 seconds and upper 8 second 1/4 miles. In a vehicle that could do 100+ miles at highway speeds on less than $0.20 worth of electricity. DO WANT.
Toecutter,

What about using a rear wheel that is very wide, but small in diameter? That should give you the traction you need.

Obviously you wouldn't use spokes though. You would use a cast wheel with the motor built in.

Example (which I am sure is way overkill) of what is possible at slightly under 15" diameter:

https://www.scooterpartscatalog.com/bik ... f0EALw_wcB

So maybe even around 13" tire diameter with good traction is possible?

P.S. Maybe even make it a long tail tadpole like Campagna T-Rex: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... t_rear.jpg

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by calab » Dec 26 2021 8:18pm

Leaf cast wheel is only on the smaller motor 1000w with one size and it does not fit the bigger 1500 motor how small a wheel do you want I am lacing a iso 305 16" bicycle rim to a hub that will have 30mm spokes and retains 90 degree spoke angle on a zero cross pattern having a wider rim for wide tire would be neat 14" 50cc tires.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 27 2021 12:05pm

The leafmotor starts doing worse below 20" wheel. Think the 18" is the limit then it all goes south.

To be able to peddle a dual motor setup on the front wheels is a great way to get power and speed or two grins and a rear leafmotor.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by john61ct » Dec 27 2021 12:09pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 27 2021 12:05pm
To be able to peddle a dual motor setup on the front wheels is a great way to get power and speed or two grins and a rear leafmotor.
Sorry am I understanding, you mean a trike, all three wheels powered?

Which Grins?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 27 2021 12:21pm

Sorry, did not mean to over look the bikes. Toecutter and I ride trikes and was mostly replying to him. The issue with trikes is trying to keep the weight where it needs to be like 60% + on the front wheels and dual front motors are a good way to go.

You can get higher power motors but lose the ability to have gears or a bad chain line. You could do this to a bike, some here have AWD bikes and use leafmotors. Leafmotor sells a front 1500w motor but it has the smaller phase wires that comes out the end of the axel. Had one and my brother got off with it. First build was planed with two 1500w 7T leafmotors but going that slow two was just not needed after learning how much power one had.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by john61ct » Dec 27 2021 12:45pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 27 2021 12:21pm
You can get higher power motors but lose the ability to have gears or a bad chain line.

...

First build was planed with two 1500w 7T leafmotors but going that slow two was just not needed after learning how much power one had.
Well my use case needs all the power, shedding heat is the limiting factor

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57720&start=5000#p1692953

Feedback from anyone much appreciated.

And when you say Grins for the front, you mean All-Axle? or?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 27 2021 12:52pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 27 2021 12:21pm
You can get higher power motors but lose the ability to have gears or a bad chain line.
If you use a jackshaft you can use much pretty much any width rear motor or rear tire and still have a perfect chainline.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 27 2021 12:55pm

Everyone will tell you that you can get all the power you need from a single motor and that is true. The factors that make more than one motor something to think about; want to keep the motor width or weight limited. To me dual motors double the heat dissipation and you can more than double the total amps used without phase wire modification. Total Amps not per motor. A leafmotor in an AWD setup would pull most hills.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 27 2021 1:08pm

And when you say Grins for the front, you mean All-Axle? or?
Sorry, yes that is what i'm referring to. The reasons, all axel motor is a front motor and can be ran on the left or right side with the single sided axel. A pair of them make crazy power. One is just below the leaf. Think they are 28mm vs the 35mm leaf. You can play with the Turn count of the leaf to match the two offerings of the All Axel to match them together.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Dec 27 2021 3:03pm

Dang, this thread is nearly 90 pages.

I gotta ask- I know one of these will work with a potential project of mine, a 60v build only pushing a max of ~1500w through some salvaged controller, but what ARE the limits for these leafmotors? It seems like they can be driven to absurdity. Cause I was gonna pester Justin before seeing this.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 27 2021 3:36pm

Short version:
The limit before burning one up appears to be 20kw @ what, 10 minutes? when you use ferrofluid.
Slight air cooling mods? 2kw all day. Battery dies before the motor exceeds ~80C here.

6kw in spurts was no big deal for me, heat wise. 10 minutes up a 7% grade at 50mph wasn't enough to melt my motor.
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My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 27 2021 5:30pm

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Dec 27 2021 3:03pm
but what ARE the limits for these leafmotors? It seems like they can be driven to absurdity.
Only if matched by absurd cooling mods :P
Here's what I had to do to mine to push 8Kw bursts and 4-5KW sustained through it.
DSC_2764.jpg
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DSC_2760.jpg
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DSC_3209.JPG
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Also not shown is the enlargement of the axle hole to run thicker phase wires (as well as power for the fans). There were 12 fans total (both sides) directly in series with my 52V (14S) battery.

Yes the FF got dirty, but everything kept working fine while I had it and did so for years. Also, I did this before 'hubsinks' were a thing...otherwise I would have used them instead of my own getto setup.
To my knowledge it is still going strong now, 5+ years, 15000+km later.

Cheers

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 27 2021 5:33pm

Damn, 5 years of that..

I think.. i think you win the thread, cowardlyduck.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 27 2021 10:20pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Dec 27 2021 5:30pm
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING wrote:
Dec 27 2021 3:03pm
but what ARE the limits for these leafmotors? It seems like they can be driven to absurdity.
Only if matched by absurd cooling mods :P
Here's what I had to do to mine to push 8Kw bursts and 4-5KW sustained through it.
DSC_2764.jpg
DSC_2760.jpg
DSC_3209.JPG

Also not shown is the enlargement of the axle hole to run thicker phase wires (as well as power for the fans). There were 12 fans total (both sides) directly in series with my 52V (14S) battery.

Yes the FF got dirty, but everything kept working fine while I had it and did so for years. Also, I did this before 'hubsinks' were a thing...otherwise I would have used them instead of my own getto setup.
To my knowledge it is still going strong now, 5+ years, 15000+km later.

Cheers
Wow....12 x 40mm fans!!

Can I ask how much cfm and rpm they were running at?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 27 2021 10:24pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 27 2021 1:08pm
And when you say Grins for the front, you mean All-Axle? or?
Sorry, yes that is what i'm referring to. The reasons, all axel motor is a front motor and can be ran on the left or right side with the single sided axel. A pair of them make crazy pwoower. One is just below the leaf. Think they are 28mm vs the 35mm leaf. You can play with the Turn count of the leaf to match the two offerings of the All Axel to match tweethem together.
Two Grin all axle would be sweet.

The one concern I have about a very small diameter wheel in the back of a tadpole is potholes. A person would need rear suspension but maybe the extra width of the rear tire would help.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Dec 27 2021 10:29pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Dec 27 2021 5:30pm

Only if matched by absurd cooling mods :P
Holy shit. Well, If my salvaged controller works, at $250 total and basic ring terminals I'm sold.

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