Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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ebike4healthandfitness   10 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 28 2021 12:51am

calab wrote:
Dec 26 2021 8:18pm
Leaf cast wheel is only on the smaller motor 1000w with one size and it does not fit the bigger 1500 motor how small a wheel do you want I am lacing a iso 305 16" bicycle rim to a hub that will have 30mm spokes and retains 90 degree spoke angle on a zero cross pattern having a wider rim for wide tire would be neat 14" 50cc tires.
That is too bad about the lack of cast wheel for leaf 1500.

In the simulator the 5t leaf 1500 does extremely well at very small wheel sizes. I was even able to beat the GMAC 8T motor using a 28" wheel for efficiency and power throughout the speed range when I used a 14" wheel with leaf 1500 at double the volts and half the amps and half the phase amps.

P.S. Kv for GMAC 8T and leaf 1500 5T are 10.38 and 10.49 respectively. When I make the Kv both 10.38 the results are still basically the same....the leaf 1500 has a substantial lead in power and efficiency throughout the speed range.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 28 2021 1:19am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 28 2021 12:51am
That is too bad about the lack of cast wheel for leaf 1500.
No, it's not. Tension spoked wheels have radically better strength-to-weight ratio than cast wheels and are repairable (which cast wheels are not).

You can lament the fact that a Leaf motor won't fit in a shopping cart wheel, but that's actually a good thing if you were deranged enough to try it.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 28 2021 2:31am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 28 2021 1:19am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote: wh
That is too bad about the lack of cast wheel for leaf 1500.
You can lament the fact that a Leaf motor won't fit in a" shopping cart wheel, but that's actually a good thing if you were deranged enough to try it.
I've seen folding bikes with 14" wheels and no complaints and let's not forget the ev linked below has 11" wheels and is quite the performer even without a front suspension:

https://youtu.be/Nn-IqhezeZw

https://youtu.be/VA_daWgH7RE

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 28 2021 3:39am

All the details are in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=56965&start=475
I did it to several motors, the Leaf as above, and a Crystalyte HS4080. Worked great, but I sold my Fighter since then so not 100% sure on the status now.

Fans were only 7ish cfm each and tiny things, but you could feel the heat getting pushed out of the motor when running so they definitely worked.

TBH, I would not recommend doing it unless you absolutely want maximum performance. It's just so much easier and cleaner to use some FF with hubsinks and that works about 70% as good.

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The Toecutter   100 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 28 2021 9:52am

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Dec 28 2021 3:39am
TBH, I would not recommend doing it unless you absolutely want maximum performance. It's just so much easier and cleaner to use some FF with hubsinks and that works about 70% as good.
That's the route I'm taking. So you got 4-5 kW continuous? 70% of 5 kW is 3.5 kW, which would grant a 130 kg mass with a CdA of 0.06 m^2 and tires with a Crr of 0.008 a cruising speed of almost 100 mph, at least without overheating the motor.

My hubsink arrived yesterday. Once I get my truing stand, I can build a 16x1.5" rim around my 3T 1500W Leafbike motor. I will skip the fans for now.

How many seconds at a time do you think the motor could handle 250A phase current without damage?

I ask this because setting up a 20S6P pack of Molicel P42A 21700 is rather tempting, and it will take 18 kW to carry that 250A phase current all the way up to delivering 72V. The acceleration would be decent by car standards. 0-60 mph under 7 seconds could be had with 0W of rider input. Rider input has the potential to shave almost a second off of the 0-60 time with lots of squat barbell training. That's enough to have a chance to get away from a V6 Dodge Charger loaded with police equipment, by at least matching its acceleration. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. :D
Custom electric velomobile, 2500W: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110298

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 28 2021 10:13am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 26 2021 1:50pm

What about using a rear wheel that is very wide, but small in diameter? That should give you the traction you need.

Obviously you wouldn't use spokes though. You would use a cast wheel with the motor built in.

Example (which I am sure is way overkill) of what is possible at slightly under 15" diameter:

https://www.scooterpartscatalog.com/bik ... f0EALw_wcB

So maybe even around 13" tire diameter with good traction is possible?
a) That style of wheel will not work with a bicycle drivetrain due to width. The motor's case and freehub would by necessity be far too recessed(Although, fitting two motors into one of these wheels sharing the same axle is a possibility and would require welding skills beyond anything I am capable of).
b) Cast wheels are not easy to repair nor as strong per unit of mass
c) A greatly increased voltage will be required due to the smaller overall diameter to get the top speed I'm looking for
d) Rolling resistance is also an issue. For it to be pedalable to decent speed with the motor shut off, Crr must never exceed 0.010, but will preferably be 0.008 or less.
e) For the car idea with no bicycle drivetrain and a motor in each wheel, traction on the front wheels will also be an issue, and this size/width is ill-suited to that.

I'm curious to see how a single Mitas MC2 16x2.25" in the back and two Schwalbe Marathon Plus 20x1.75" up front perform. I'll probably get to know sometime this year. A far cry from what I eventually want to do, but a good intermediate step. Should be adequate(barely) for a single Leafbike running 10+ kW and 250A phase current. I'm certain to have wheelspin.

The best thing to control wheelspin for my application would be slip detection/traction control.
Custom electric velomobile, 2500W: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110298

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 28 2021 1:31pm

Need to think about the wiring first. 2000w continuous is a lot for a bike/trike. Think of the speeds with low drag and how big a battery you will need to keep that up for long.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Dec 28 2021 5:25pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Dec 28 2021 9:52am
Cowardlyduck wrote:
Dec 28 2021 3:39am
TBH, I would not recommend doing it unless you absolutely want maximum performance. It's just so much easier and cleaner to use some FF with hubsinks and that works about 70% as good.
How many seconds at a time do you think the motor could handle 250A phase current without damage?
Well, that's exactly the phase amps I used with my Adaptto MiniE.
No idea how long the controller actually delivers the phase amps at that level for, but having set it to that on mine, I can only imagine it was holding it at that level for some time going up steep gradients at low speeds.
I never burned out my Leaf, but I did manage to blow up a MiniE once trying to see if it could do repeated 8.5KW pulls by stalling it into a wall. Stupidest idea ever. :roll:
DSC_3447.JPG
DSC_3447.JPG (2.79 MiB) Viewed 513 times
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 28 2021 10:11pm

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 28 2021 12:51am
In the simulator the 5t leaf 1500 does extremely well at very small wheel sizes. I was even able to beat the GMAC 8T motor using a 28" wheel for efficiency and power throughout the speed range when I used a 14" wheel with leaf 1500 at double the volts and half the amps and half the phase amps.

P.S. Kv for GMAC 8T and leaf 1500 5T are 10.38 and 10.49 respectively. When I make the Kv both 10.38 the results are still basically the same....the leaf 1500 has a substantial lead in power and efficiency throughout the speed range.
DDs always beat geared hubs in an efficiency test... so far anyway :)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 28 2021 11:40pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 28 2021 10:11pm
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 28 2021 12:51am
In the simulator the 5t leaf 1500 does extremely well at very small wheel sizes. I was even able to beat the GMAC 8T motor using a 28" wheel for efficiency and power throughout the speed range when I used a 14" wheel with leaf 1500 at double the volts and half the amps and half the phase amps.

P.S. Kv for GMAC 8T and leaf 1500 5T are 10.38 and 10.49 respectively. When I make the Kv both 10.38 the results are still basically the same....the leaf 1500 has a substantial lead in power and efficiency throughout the speed range.
DDs always beat geared hubs in an efficiency test... so far anyway :)
Peak efficiency....yes. But it loses in.efficiency at lower wheel speed.

With a very small wheel it won in efficiency (and power) all throughout the speed range. I was very impressed.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 29 2021 12:26am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 28 2021 11:40pm
Peak efficiency....yes. But it loses in.efficiency at lower wheel speed.

With a very small wheel it won in efficiency (and power) all throughout the speed range. I was very impressed.
That's a simulator. Why don't you try actually doing things and measuring them if the numbers are important to you? It's never too late to start doing real stuff.

Heck, you might even figure out concepts like why we don't all ride on donut wheels.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 29 2021 12:36am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:26am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 28 2021 11:40pm
Peak efficiency....yes. But it loses in.efficiency at lower wheel speed.

With a very small wheel it won in efficiency (and power) all throughout the speed range. I was very impressed.
That's a simulator. Why don't you try actually doing things and measuring them if the numbers are important to you? It's never too late to start doing real stuff.
What I am witnessing in the simulator is already being done in real life. It's called the Rion RE90, a 69 lb EV with incredible power density. So power dense that it is actually able to go over 100 mph with a passenger ( but is governed to 80 mph) despite the obviously awful aerodynamics.

This is a level of performance (and power density) most people here can only dream about. Of course, the people dreaming aren't using 96v and very small wheels using direct drive motors.
Last edited by ebike4healthandfitness on Dec 29 2021 12:40am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 29 2021 12:40am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:36am
What I am witnessing in the simulator is already being done in real life. It's called the blah blah blah[...]
Yeah, sure, whatever-- but you personally haven't done any of it. Why not?
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 29 2021 12:44am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:40am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:36am
What I am witnessing in the simulator is already being done in real life. It's called the blah blah blah[...]
Yeah, sure, whatever-- but you personally haven't done any of it. Why not?
I think I would rather just buy a Rion.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 29 2021 1:20am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:44am
Chalo wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:40am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:36am
What I am witnessing in the simulator is already being done in real life. It's called the blah blah blah[...]
Yeah, sure, whatever-- but you personally haven't done any of it. Why not?
I think I would rather just buy a blah blah blah.
So do it. You're not doing that either, from what any of us can tell. You're telling us all how it is, when you don't actually know anything from your own experience. It's really tiresome.

Oh, and wear safety gear. That little donut wheeled wanker board is made to dump you off.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by calab » Dec 29 2021 1:33am

talk is cheap lots of dreamers out there
only dream

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ebike4healthandfitness » Dec 29 2021 4:40am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 29 2021 1:20am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:44am
Chalo wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:40am
ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 29 2021 12:36am
What I am witnessing in the simulator is already being done in real life. It's called the blah blah blah[...]
Yeah, sure, whatever-- but you personally haven't done any of it. Why not?
I think I would rather just buy a blah blah blah.
That little donut wheeled wanker board is made to dump you off.
Have you ridden a scooter like that before?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 29 2021 10:19am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 28 2021 11:40pm
Peak efficiency....yes. But it loses in.efficiency at lower wheel speed.

With a very small wheel it won in efficiency (and power) all throughout the speed range. I was very impressed.
Very low speed efficiency doesn't matter much and is INCREDIBLY variable with what load you put on each motor vs the motor's characteristics. Don't ever compare motors on that metric. Peak efficiency and the RPM/load point it happens at is always the first clue to look at when assessing an unknown motor.


We've always known smaller wheel hubs have a power density advantage.. however, with increasing iron losses and/or increased gearing losses, there are plenty of motors which will have a bit poorer efficiency in a smaller wheel.

My eZee motor ( nicer MAC clone with a bit smaller stator ) has atrocious efficiency in my 20 inch wheel... upper 70's, low 80's.. good power? yeah.. but... :lol:


Of course the Rion RE90 has impressive specs like that. The motor spins at 1000's of RPM and is probably a 4-8 pole motor ( very low iron losses per RPM ) and probably has razor-thin laminations also, lowering the iron losses even further.

There aren't many ebike hub motors that are specifically designed for a small wheels ( which implies a lower pole count ) and have high power. The only way to get scooter-like power density is to take something akin to a 94% efficient RC motor ( astro, maytech? ), put that 4lb motor through two reductions.. what you probably see is 90% peak efficiency with a 8lbs motor + reduction assembly..

This video is now going 10 years old..



You could go this route and spend $2k... OR you could buy a leafmotor and throw a cooling mod or two on it and have the same power and efficiency for twice the weight for ~$300.

A good poor man's astro drive is the CYC Pro X1.. again ~8lbs.. estimated 88% peak efficiency after all the reductions.. claimed 3kw continuous.. and ~$800 USD.... not bad, if power density is what you're after.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
Monster MTB: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: Cannondale semi recumbent - under construction.
Blue Dream: Maxaraya FS semi recumbent and high efficiency mid-drive - under construction.

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The Toecutter   100 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 29 2021 10:53am

neptronix wrote:
Dec 29 2021 10:19am
A good poor man's astro drive is the CYC Pro X1.. again ~8lbs.. estimated 88% peak efficiency after all the reductions.. claimed 3kw continuous.. and ~$800 USD.... not bad, if power density is what you're after.
I know multiple KMX trike builds and a custom KMX velomobile build made by someone who used to post here using this Cyclone motor, but the owner doesn't want them posted anywhere. Both of the trikes are running about 6 kW peak and can hit 65 mph, and the velo could theoretically reach 100+ mph but the owner has never taken it to its top speed. I promised him I wouldn't share the video of the velo in use at full acceleration. But I must say that watching it tear ass down the street with a see-through digital HUD speedometer in view of the camera as the electric motor made a gloriously loud song shifting through the gears reminiscent of an electric F1 car was a thing of beauty.

But yeah, you can't go wrong with this choice if you're after power density.

An in-wheel hub motor could have similar power density and superior efficiency with all of the hubmotor advantages if it used modern technology. But unfortunately, most people building something within a niche to justify this kind of power want expensive, complicated, highly specialized solutions not just because perhaps they don't know any better, but because the manufacturers of ebike parts at the hobbyist level won't often think outside what is already established and simply want to either copy everyone else and/or is some big name manufacturer that wants to foist some proprietary/closed/impossible to repair/street legal/non-customizable solution onto the market that loses any and all customer support once the next version comes out.
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The Toecutter   100 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Dec 29 2021 11:06am

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Dec 28 2021 5:25pm
Well, that's exactly the phase amps I used with my Adaptto MiniE.
No idea how long the controller actually delivers the phase amps at that level for, but having set it to that on mine, I can only imagine it was holding it at that level for some time going up steep gradients at low speeds.
I never burned out my Leaf, but I did manage to blow up a MiniE once trying to see if it could do repeated 8.5KW pulls by stalling it into a wall. Stupidest idea ever. :roll:
My motor is probably going to be safe then. I'll know more once I get a chance to try it. Nice picture. I think my BAC4000 could handle the current long enough to kill the motor.

My biggest issue right now is finding a gearing solution that will work with the commercially available torque sensors, OR finding a non-bottom bracket torque sensor that will work with a Schlumpf HS drive. I might have to make a torque sensor, or install a jackshaft kit. Neither of which is ideal since I need whatever time I can get to build and refine the next body shell.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 29 2021 11:53am

ebike4healthandfitness wrote:
Dec 29 2021 4:40am
Chalo wrote:
Dec 29 2021 1:20am
That little donut wheeled wanker board is made to dump you off.
Have you ridden a scooter like that before?
No, I have real bikes. I also live in a neighborhood infested with thousands of those things, and I get to see the nonsense unfolding every day with my own eyes. Bird and Lime scooters only go 20 mph at most, so they're safer... but that's still not very safe. Hospitals here saw a huge increase in broken appendages when they appeared.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 30 2021 12:22pm

From all the testing it's proven that the leafmotor can do 2000w continuous. For me this easily keeps my top speed and pulls the steepest hills in my area around 20 mph. For my trike could get by with 1200w max but would slow down more on the hills.

Does anyone know what the leafmotor can do with FF does the continuous power move close to or above 3000w?

Someday will get my temperature sender working in my motor. Would like to see the continuous output with FF. The problem is my setup is for 30 mph and don't have enough drag to run 3000w plus for long. Can get my trike to hit 3000w but does not stay there long enough to heat up. Maybe in the summer a 100+ deg F can get it hot but not really a test.

Just wanted to remind everyone you can pipe in a lot of kw but it will get hot so running at 50+ mph will not last long.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING » Dec 30 2021 1:51pm

Chalo wrote:
Dec 29 2021 11:53am
No, I have real bikes. I also live in a neighborhood infested with thousands of those things, and I get to see the nonsense unfolding every day with my own eyes. Bird and Lime scooters only go 20 mph at most, so they're safer... but that's still not very safe. Hospitals here saw a huge increase in broken appendages when they appeared.
Yup, lots of them drunks. Even my city held town halls to see if they wanted them banned. I just look to them as a future source of salvaged parts. And job security :/

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by ZeroEm » Dec 30 2021 1:58pm

could just ban drinking? Just a thought.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 30 2021 5:20pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Dec 30 2021 1:58pm
could just ban drinking? Just a thought.
We tried that. It kinda sucked. :)
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