New project. Trike, customer wants it to go fast

rborger73 · Apr 26, 2015

Ok so somewhat set on a Kmx trike, but still looking at options. Customer owns like 3 race cars and goes all over the country racing, so no need for the safety advice, he'll be well advised before he gets in it for a ride. Have a nice sized budget. Was planning on just a Mp4 with the new viewing screen, but he want's 40mph + for it. Will likely be mostly a toy to show off for him, and his place is on a nice stretch of road that isn't too busy, so likely a lot of running it down the road more than commuting of any sense.

So suggestions for Trike model to start with, motor and controller combos. I personally love lipo, but even with someone that is well versed in mechanical knowledge, I hesitate to go lipo for him. Lifepo4 I guess being the alternative. Any obstacles with the rear wheel on a trike? Just starting my research on this project, should be a fun one. Cromoter? He wants fast, so may as well do it right. Thanks in advance for the input. We may end up welding in a battery box under the seat. I have a feeling I won't want to turn this one over to him, and will be building another one shortly after this one. lol

Triketech · Apr 26, 2015

40 MPH on a rigid trike is brutal. KMX is a tough trike but rides and handles like a tank.

HPV FS26

Frame is very stout yet light for full suspension; 44 Lbs with Bodylink Seat.

The Bodylink is adjustable unlike most hardshell seats. It makes leaning a natural, a good rider can dirt-track it through turns. No other trike I've ridden including the ICE VTX and Catrike 700 come anywhere close on handling.

Batteries are easy to mount on either side of the bottom frame and there are already some strategically positioned threads for mounting the battery brackets.

arkmundi · Apr 26, 2015

rborger73 said:
I personally love lipo, but even with someone that is well versed in mechanical knowledge, I hesitate to go lipo for him. Lifepo4 I guess being the alternative.

I believe you got that backwards - the standard recommendation is LiFePO4 and related chemistries. The "alternative" may be lipo, under user-beware warning label regarding safe charging practices. Would like to recommend latest MXUS 3K motor & controller options from Kinaye Motorsports.

rborger73 · Apr 26, 2015

arkmundi said:
rborger73 said:

I personally love lipo, but even with someone that is well versed in mechanical knowledge, I hesitate to go lipo for him. Lifepo4 I guess being the alternative.

Click to expand...

I believe you got that backwards - the standard recommendation is LiFePO4 and related chemistries. The "alternative" may be lipo, under user-beware warning label regarding safe charging practices. Would like to recommend latest MXUS 3K motor & controller options from Kinaye Motorsports.

I did say "personally".

Lifepo4 is the alternative to what "I" prefer.

I'll look into the mxus thanks.

rborger73 · Apr 26, 2015

Triketech said:
40 MPH on a rigid trike is brutal. KMX is a tough trike but rides and handles like a tank.

HPV FS26

Frame is very stout yet light for full suspension; 44 Lbs with Bodylink Seat.

The Bodylink is adjustable unlike most hardshell seats. It makes leaning a natural, a good rider can dirt-track it through turns. No other trike I've ridden including the ICE VTX and Catrike 700 come anywhere close on handling.

Batteries are easy to mount on either side of the bottom frame and there are already some strategically positioned threads for mounting the battery brackets.

I don't think it would bother me a lot as I ride a hard tail diamond back at close or over 40mph just about everyday, this one will be for short joy rides mostly. Is there a better place to buy KMX than Amazon?

USAEBIKECO · Apr 27, 2015

We converted a trike like that to electric. Wow was it fun to ride afterwards. There is enough space for a battery under the seat, or you can install a rack over the rear tire.

dogman dan · Apr 27, 2015

Big NMC battery would be your best choice. You need it lighter and smaller than lifepo4, since a fast bike/trike will eat power like a wild hog.

Cromotor a good idea, but also nearly as good would be the "3000w" kits out there, muxus or whatever. But make sure what ever you get will fit within the dropouts of your trike. One gear fine, it won't be getting pedaled unless it breaks down or runs out of power.

docnjoj · Apr 27, 2015

Check out Outrider Trikes. They make custom KMX parts and they won the last electric Pikes Peak race. They used to be called FFR trikes. There is (was?) a kit for sale on the Sale Threads here on E-S.
otherDoc

rborger73 · Apr 28, 2015

lester12483 said:
We converted a trike like that to electric. Wow was it fun to ride afterwards. There is enough space for a battery under the seat, or you can install a rack over the rear tire.

Yes I'm going to try and build a box right under the seat for the batteries. Will depend on which Trike I end up with. Going to have to make some decisions soon as this guy is wanting it as quick as I can build it.

rborger73 · Apr 28, 2015

dogman dan said:
Big NMC battery would be your best choice. You need it lighter and smaller than lifepo4, since a fast bike/trike will eat power like a wild hog.

Cromotor a good idea, but also nearly as good would be the "3000w" kits out there, muxus or whatever. But make sure what ever you get will fit within the dropouts of your trike. One gear fine, it won't be getting pedaled unless it breaks down or runs out of power.

I think I am going to go with the Mxus and ES member mentioned in the thread. Also think I'm going to try to go with the same rear wheel combo he used with the 17" moped tire. Might have to build some custom torque arms for this. Thinking 20s should be enough to make him happy for now at least. Race car driver and builder, so he'll want to have it take off fast. Should be an interesting project.

rborger73 · Apr 28, 2015

docnjoj said:
Check out Outrider Trikes. They make custom KMX parts and they won the last electric Pikes Peak race. They used to be called FFR trikes. There is (was?) a kit for sale on the Sale Threads here on E-S.
otherDoc

I've seen their videos, and love what they are doing. I'm not a big fan of the middrive setups, but I'd love to have one, everything else they are doing is awesome, I'd just like it with a rear hub motor instead. They are kind of my inspiration, but I probably won't go quite as extensive as what their designs go, but close.

recumpence · Apr 28, 2015

This is a self serving post but.........

I make the high performance drives that Outrider uses. I don't know what kind of budget your customer has, but, a twin motor drive on a KMX is good for 0 to 60 mph in under 4 seconds reliably if setup correctly. Lots of power, light weight. Not cheap though.

I have alot of experience with the KMX platform.

Matt

mlb2109 · Apr 28, 2015

I hope someone involved understands the inherent handling dynamics of a tadpole trike!!! I've owned 8 and have a Falco powered Catrike Expedition right now. There's not a one I'd want to go 40mph on! Handling gets downright squirrally at 30+ on most trikes as the frame and wheels starts to flex from the greatly increased forces at higher speeds and then turning at ALL. Braking hard at 30+ is pucker inducing in most trikes, in all at speed and in a turn. And not your lips.

The Polaris tadpole motorcycle has a set of severe electrical nannies that pretty much forbid ANY fun stuff in the name of keeping guys on the road on not off the sides of mountains. Motor cutout, braking induced, ect
Bike-trikes have none of those.

If there are trikes that can handle those speeds safely they will be heavily reinforced versus a commercial model and probably full suspension.

And I still wouldn't pilot it at 40+ on a downhill with curves. :oops:

knighty · Apr 29, 2015

why not use 2 motors, make it front wheel drive, and put the batteries up front ?

should massively improve handling at speed ?

dogman dan · Apr 29, 2015

I would think, that 40 mph in a tight downhill turn would be pucker time, if you can't lean. I mean curves that most regular cars could never handle at 40 mph.

But nothing I can see wrong with one that is fast as hell on the straight. Sounds like this guy will understand how to corner. And get it, that you better see a pothole, or manhole cover in time to avoid it.

recumpence · Apr 29, 2015

mlb2109 said:
I hope someone involved understands the inherent handling dynamics of a tadpole trike!!! I've owned 8 and have a Falco powered Catrike Expedition right now. There's not a one I'd want to go 40mph on! Handling gets downright squirrally at 30+ on most trikes as the frame and wheels starts to flex from the greatly increased forces at higher speeds and then turning at ALL. Braking hard at 30+ is pucker inducing in most trikes, in all at speed and in a turn. And not your lips.
The Polaris tadpole motorcycle has a set of severe electrical nannies that pretty much forbid ANY fun stuff in the name of keeping guys on the road on not off the sides of mountains. Motor cutout, braking induced, ect
Bike-trikes have none of those.

If there are trikes that can handle those speeds safely they will be heavily reinforced versus a commercial model and probably full suspension.

And I still wouldn't pilot it at 40+ on a downhill with curves.

I have HUGE experience with powered tadpole trikes. 40 mph is fine on a KMX. Above that I recommend a steering damper. With the damper, the sky is the limit on stability. I have run 72 mph on my KMX and Outrider went 86mph. Dampers cure any stability issues.

Matt

rborger73 · Apr 29, 2015

recumpence said:
This is a self serving post but.........

I make the high performance drives that Outrider uses. I don't know what kind of budget your customer has, but, a twin motor drive on a KMX is good for 0 to 60 mph in under 4 seconds reliably if setup correctly. Lots of power, light weight. Not cheap though.

I have alot of experience with the KMX platform.

Matt

I'd be interested in the cost of the setup and whatever it requires to get it bolted on the a kmx trike. Can pm me, or post here either way. He may be interested.

Triketech · Apr 29, 2015

recumpence said:
I have HUGE experience with powered tadpole trikes. 40 mph is fine on a KMX. Above that I recommend a steering damper. With the damper, the sky is the limit on stability. I have run 72 mph on my KMX and Outrider went 86mph. Dampers cure any stability issues.

Matt

40 MPH on a KMX is like 200 MPH in a Yugo. With enough power it can be done. Just seems like a waste of power to me.

waynebergman · Apr 29, 2015

Matt I did not know you used a steering dampener. I am glad you mentioned it here. On my tadpole I find it stable at 30mph but it gets twitchy when I pedal assist at that speed. I figured it was because I did not have a smooth spin to my pedaling which may be the case but this dampener idea may help. Can you pass on a link or something that would help shed more light on a steering dampening system that may work for a tadpole trike? I have under seat steering linkage on my home built........thanks wayne

rborger73 · Apr 30, 2015

Triketech said:
recumpence said:

I have HUGE experience with powered tadpole trikes. 40 mph is fine on a KMX. Above that I recommend a steering damper. With the damper, the sky is the limit on stability. I have run 72 mph on my KMX and Outrider went 86mph. Dampers cure any stability issues.

Matt

Click to expand...

40 MPH on a KMX is like 200 MPH in a Yugo. With enough power it can be done. Just seems like a waste of power to me.

40mph doesn't seem all that extreme.

recumpence · Apr 30, 2015

Triketech said:
recumpence said:

I have HUGE experience with powered tadpole trikes. 40 mph is fine on a KMX. Above that I recommend a steering damper. With the damper, the sky is the limit on stability. I have run 72 mph on my KMX and Outrider went 86mph. Dampers cure any stability issues.

Matt

Click to expand...

40 MPH on a KMX is like 200 MPH in a Yugo. With enough power it can be done. Just seems like a waste of power to me.

40 miles per hour only requires 2000 Watts on a KMX trike. Again, I find people expressing an opinion without knowledge. The standard out rider KMX Trikes use a single astroflight motor with my reduction unit and travel 40 miles per hour drawing 1400 watts to sustain that speed.

rborger73 · Apr 30, 2015

recumpence said:
Triketech said:

recumpence said:

I have HUGE experience with powered tadpole trikes. 40 mph is fine on a KMX. Above that I recommend a steering damper. With the damper, the sky is the limit on stability. I have run 72 mph on my KMX and Outrider went 86mph. Dampers cure any stability issues.

Matt

Click to expand...

40 MPH on a KMX is like 200 MPH in a Yugo. With enough power it can be done. Just seems like a waste of power to me.

Click to expand...

40 miles per hour only requires 2000 Watts on a KMX trike. Again, I find people expressing an opinion without knowledge. The standard out rider KMX Trikes use a single astroflight motor with my reduction unit and travel 40 miles per hour drawing 1400 watts to sustain that speed.

Ya my MP3 I only run 12s on and have no problem hitting 36mph on the downhills every day, and 30 to 32mph on the flats. I know the gyro effect for me gives me more control at higher speeds as far as cornering and the bike feeling smoother up there. But that is with a 29er tire on the front. Not sure if having the smaller wheels up front on a trike downplays that effect a bit at high speed or not. I'm a noob when it comes to trikes honestly. So I'll take advice from those with more experience, but 40mph just isn't a scary number for me on any well built trike or bike.

recumpence · Apr 30, 2015

waynebergman said:
Matt I did not know you used a steering dampener. I am glad you mentioned it here. On my tadpole I find it stable at 30mph but it gets twitchy when I pedal assist at that speed. I figured it was because I did not have a smooth spin to my pedaling which may be the case but this dampener idea may help. Can you pass on a link or something that would help shed more light on a steering dampening system that may work for a tadpole trike? I have under seat steering linkage on my home built........thanks wayne

I used some no name damper for a Sportster I found on ebay. It worked awesome!

Matt

Triketech · Apr 30, 2015

recumpence said:
40 miles per hour only requires 2000 Watts on a KMX trike. Again, I find people expressing an opinion without knowledge. The standard out rider KMX Trikes use a single astroflight motor with my reduction unit and travel 40 miles per hour drawing 1400 watts to sustain that speed.

I don't recall any contention over how many watts it takes to go X MPH.

The OP asked:

rborger73 said:
Ok so somewhat set on a Kmx trike, but still looking at options. Customer owns like 3 race cars and goes all over the country racing, so no need for the safety advice, he'll be well advised before he gets in it for a ride. Have a nice sized budget. Was planning on just a Mp4 with the new viewing screen, but he want's 40mph + for it. Will likely be mostly a toy to show off for him, and his place is on a nice stretch of road that isn't too busy, so likely a lot of running it down the road more than commuting of any sense.

So suggestions for Trike model to start with, motor and controller combos. <snip>

1. Have a nice sized budget
2. Customer owns like 3 race cars and goes all over the country racing

First off, I've owned a KMX Cobra, and ridden a handful of KMX's. In fact I've owned over a dozen trikes and put well over 10,000 miles on them.

The KMX handles OK for a low end trike, but that's exactly what it is; a low end trike. Hit ripples on a downhill at 40 MPH and it hops, sometimes lurches. Try that under hard braking, and even for someone with 20 years of SCCA & IMSA road racing skills its a bit unnerving.

Hence the reference to a Yugo. I admit, the KMX is probably closer to a Jeep CJ5, after all its pretty robust. Just handles like crap.

Obviously the customer is a high roller. Hand a high roller a high speed vehicle that handles like crap and after his wife visits the hospital from a crash, his lawyer will take everything the guy who built it owns.

If you're interested in an offline debate on AC & DC motor design, send me a PM. I'll send you links to a few of the electric drive systems I've designed that also mention who I am. Think megawatts not just a couple of kilowatts.

rborger73 · May 13, 2015

Well have 2 trike orders now. This is getting interesting.

Looks like I'm going Adaptto controllers mini e's And likely the Mxus motor on 17" moped rim, have to make sure dropouts are the right size. Going with KMX tornado I think, but with 20" front wheels. I'll post more details as I start the orders. Trying to get this done by the end of June for both. Time to have some fun.

New project. Trike, customer wants it to go fast

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