New to eBikes! Appreciate comments on this configuration.

cgokey

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Jun 9, 2016
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So, I'm brand new to this forum and eBikes, I'd super appreciate some comments on this configuration for a cheap way to turn a recumbent bike I just got into a ebike. Total cost of the configuration below is $480 with shipping. One comment, I live near vermont, so there are a lot of hills, but I plan to use the bike for fitness, just looking for some help up the hills...

EBike Electric Bike Conversion Kit-Front Hub Motor (20" wheel)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151610151588?euid=ef1d2e332be743b58cc9156ddd72184c&bu=43085941817&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu
Cost $209.95 + 34.94 shipping.
Direct drive Brushless hi-torque hub Motor. Prewired Speed Controller Unit with 25 Amp current limit. This Controller can be powered by any 48V voltage battery pack with a min. 30A discharging drain. Includes wheel with hub motor (installed), speed controller, throttle, battery bag, brank hand levers
Watts: 850W (MAX). Rated Voltage: 36V/48.
I'm going to with the 36V controller to match the 36V battery below.
I emailed and asked the RPM of this motor is 350RPM for the 36V and 450 for the 48V

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E-bike-36v-10ah-Lithium-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Packs-Bicycle-Li-ion-Batteries-/282040924485?hash=item41aaf2f945:g:iM0AAOSwVcFXOtgP
Cost 235 (Free Shipping).
E-bike 36v 10ah Lithium-ion Rechargeable Battery Packs Bicycle Li-ion Batteries

I tried to plug my numbers here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

I used 9C+2705 (don't know what to pick for this, which motor does equivalent of 850W motor with around 350RPM?)
Chose 36V battery, 10Ah
25A controller
20" Wheel
Full Recumbent

And it specs out to:
23.9MPH
Range is 26 miles
on full throttle.

Just a note... If I change it to 700C mountain bike, the range goes down to 9.9 miles. Do recumbents really get that much more?
 
I noticed this 48V 12ah lithium battery as well for $287.85, same ebay dealer (free shipping).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48v-12ah-lithium-li-ion-Battery-Rechargeable-E-bike-Power-Pack-Storage-Scooters-/281775651827?hash=item419b233bf3:g:1KsAAOSwd4tT5HHG

So that would bump my cost from $235 to $287.50 for the battery. Switching the kit would cost me about $20 more to go with the 48V controller. So, I'd be up near $550 for for the whole sha-bang... So seems like $75 might be worthwhile? Little more range with the 12ah... Little more power too for the hills...

Chris
 
I'm looking at a controller that says:
This Controller can be powered by any 48V voltage battery pack with a min. 30A discharging drain.

But the lithium battery I'm looking at says:
Maximum continuous discharge current: 20 A
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48v-12ah-lithium-li-ion-Battery-Rechargeable-E-bike-Power-Pack-Storage-Scooters-/281775651827?hash=item419b233bf3:g:1KsAAOSwd4tT5HHG

That mean it won't work?
Thanks,
Chris
 
It would still work, but performance will fall short of the motor/controller potential and battery will die an early death from discharging at its max current too much of the time. Much better to under-stress than over-stress a battery. The up-front savings in lower cost of a so-so battery... is usually more than lost due to shortened battery life expectancy.
 
cgokey said:
One comment, I live near vermont, so there are a lot of hills, but I plan to use the bike for fitness, just looking for some help up the hills...

Probably no two people here will give you exact same advice, but from my experience the setup you are looking at isn't ideal.
Direct drive motors aren't terrific on hills unless they are big and beefy, and fed with plenty of power.
The particular setup above... is kind of anemic, especially re the battery.
It is low cost, but you'll end up disappointed.

Scrape together a bit more money and you could build a terrific setup.

I've had good experience with MAC geared motors, and with vendor EM3ev.
Think you might be happier with the setup below.
Will end up costing ~$1000 with shipping figured in but it is good quality.

There are smaller/cheaper geared front motors available from other sources, but you pay the
price in terms of less help on the hills.

Whatever route you go with motor, don't skimp on the battery. Get something good.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=50_45&product_id=179
em3 MAC kit.JPG
 
Thanks appreciate the response.

I recently was at a local bike shop and tried this kit on one of their bikes...
http://dillengerelectricbikes.com/electric-bike-kits/1000w-6ah-electric-bike-kit-by-dillenger.html

This has a direct drive motor, 1000W, was actually quite surprised at the power to get up a pretty steep hill. Price of this kit is $550, but only
comes with a 6ah battery.

The kit I mentioned above has 850W, but comes with 10ah battery, so thinking for the same price, I've almost doubled the battery. I'm thinking it would be slightly reduced power, given the 250W difference in the motor and the controller is only 36V rather the 48V. Maybe I should keep looking for atleast a controller 48V, 1000W motor at minimum?

I know not all batteries are equals nor motors, so just looking for why this kit would be deficient... $235 for a 36v 10ah Lithium-ion Rechargeable Battery seems good, so trying to figure out why this battery isn't all that great... What should I be looking for in a battery? Anything wrong with this battery for this setup?

Just trying not too totally regret my purchase, especially $500... Do I have to spend near $1000 to get something I'd be happy with?

Chris
 
Sorry to say, those batteries are greatly undersized for that motor. They will fry if you try to use them. Your maximum continuous discharge rate on the battery should be equal or higher than the maximum allowed by the controller.
Those batteries would be sized for some 250w motor who's controller never pulled more than 15 amps, but on anything bigger, they'll die, possibly in flames.

You also might want to search the forum for reviews about that vendor. I've never dealt with them, and don't have any plans to.

Motors are pretty safe. even the worst ones are usually fairly good. In fact, I can't think of any hub motor that I would say steer clear of. Even Tongxin motors have their merits. But batteries are another story. only a good battery will perform well, and a good battery costs good money. Try to go cheap on a battery, especially if you don't know much about them, and you're liable to just be wasting your money.
 
Thanks, so trying to understand how to read the specs to match the battery with the controller. The controller says:
"This Controller can be powered by any 48V voltage battery pack with a min. 30A discharging drain."

I found this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lifepo4-Lithium-36v12ah-Portable-Battery-E-Bike-Scooter-Built-in-BMS-Charger-/161997101674?hash=item25b7c79a6a:g:kbUAAOSwoBtW2cXV
"One Special 12 cells PCB with balance function is installed with battery pack to protect battery from over charging, over discharging and over drain "
Max. discharging current: 40Amp

Any thoughts on this battery with that kit? It is $258 (free shipping)...

Chris
 
I think someone said something about V-Power. I think DS said in a nice way to stay away from them.
If he didn't say that let me do it. V-Power has been the least liked supplier on the forum AFAIR.

Have had 2 and they were both less than crap. As others said pay a little more now will save you a lot later.

THAT'S THE FACTS JACK

Dan

EM3ev is a great source.
 
So starting to think maybe I'll go a little higher in price... Stay with the same kit:
(and avoid v-power)

EBike Electric Bike Conversion Kit-Front Hub Motor (20" wheel)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151610151588?eu ... Tags=bu=bu
Cost $209.95 + 34.94 shipping.
Direct drive Brushless hi-torque hub Motor. Prewired Speed Controller Unit with 25 Amp current limit. This Controller can be powered by any 48V voltage battery pack with a min. 30A discharging drain. Includes wheel with hub motor (installed), speed controller, throttle, battery bag, brank hand levers
Watts: 850W (MAX). Rated Voltage: 36V/48.
I'm going to with the 48V controller to match the 48V battery below.
I emailed and asked the RPM of this motor is 450 for the 48V

Battery
48V 12AH LIFEPO4 BATTERY PACK POWER FOR EBIKE NEW CELL
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-12AH-LIFEPO4-BATTERY-PACK-POWER-FOR-EBIKE-NEW-CELL-/152000475131?hash=item2363ef2ffb:g:Y8EAAOSwBahVLqHD
One Special 16 cells PCB with balance function is installed with battery pack to protect battery from over charging, over discharging and over drain
Max. discharging current: 30Amp
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Rated Discharging Amperage: 15 Amps

If anyone sees any mismatch between the controller and the battery, please let me know... Total cost for this bundle with shipping is $555.
Again, I've got a lot of hills, so still wondering if the 800W direct drive motor is big enough... That 1000W/48V dillenger one I tried out recently did a great job climbing up some pretty steep hills.

Chris
 
A LiFePO4 battery is double the weight of modern equivalents.

Why do you want a front motor and not a rear one?
 
To run that kit motor on the simulator, use crystalyte 407

That's the Aotema, or identical from other factory, motor. Same as the clyte 400 series motors, except they are all sensorless motors.

Not the greatest motor for 26" wheels, but in 20" it will wail. You'll have about 22 mph I think. That advice above about hills, it's true for 26". But not true for 20" wheel. One plus, it's just about the quietest e bike motor ever made.


The battery will be ok, but a bit larger would be better. 15 ah. It's not a super harsh, high amps controller in that thing. And at cruise, you'll be drawing no more than 15 amps. Likely even less, because of the recumbent.
 
dogman dan said:
Not the greatest motor for 26" wheels, but in 20" it will wail. You'll have about 22 mph I think. That advice above about hills, it's true for 26". But not true for 20" wheel.

Dogman -- thanks for correcting my advice. I woke up this morning realizing this was a 20" wheel in discussion, and direct drive hub would probably be fine performance in 20" wheel -- plus simple and cheap.

Cgokey -- save money on the motor and spend it on the battery. Get a battery with reasonable Ah, good discharge (C) rate, safe and lightweight chemistry. Some of the battery deals on eBay look terrific price... but they usually hit that price by trading off one of the above characteristics.
 
Thanks dogman and footloose...

So if a controller says:
min. 30A discharging drain

But looking at some of these batteries on ebay, I see:
* Max. discharging current: 30Amp
* Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps

So am I looking for both numbers to be above or equal to 30? I see a lot of lithium batteries with max at 30amp, but continous at 20amps...
What does this mean?

What about when it says:
balance function is installed with battery pack to protect battery from over charging, over discharging and over drain

Chris
 
Your last phrase is almost standard in every battery that is a plug and play. So that is just a sales pitch to the ones who don't know or don't ask.

I really don't care for LiFePo4 like 4 years ago, kinda old stock now. It is the safest but kinda heavy and lower discharge rate than the Li-ion stuff.

Keep looking and don't hesitate to ask questions. As poste earlier, the battery is more important than the motor in most cases. Spend a little more and get a good one.

dan
 
The motor is not an 850W motor. That's MAX wattage fir it, They don't state the actual watt rating but it's probably 250-350W. The controller that comes with it is 25A max, but the battery is 20A max. The rpm's are no load rpms. In a 20" wheel 350 rpm is 20.8 mph no load speed and 450 rpm is 26.8 mph. Niether of which you will get in actual use under load. Do yourself a favor and read this.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74403
 
DAND214 said:
Your last phrase is almost standard in every battery that is a plug and play. So that is just a sales pitch to the ones who don't know or don't ask.

I really don't care for LiFePo4 like 4 years ago, kinda old stock now. It is the safest but kinda heavy and lower discharge rate than the Li-ion stuff.

Keep looking and don't hesitate to ask questions. As poste earlier, the battery is more important than the motor in most cases. Spend a little more and get a good one.

dan
Please forgive my ignorance but what are you calling "LI-Ion" as opposed to "LiFePo4"?
When I see "li-Ion" I read 'Lithium Ion' which is the general type for all the lithium based chemistries used in batteries.
It is a bit like referring to an Aluminum parts as "alloy" when the only non-alloy metal part would be made of cast iron.
 
30 amps max, and 20 amps continuous spec battery will work with that kit. Of course, a larger battery would be better, because with more ah, it can dish out more amps. Again, cruising full speed will likely be 12-15 amps.

It says 25 amps max controller, but I betcha it's actually a 22 amps. FWIW, I've had this same kit. I'm talking about the one in the first post. Don't buy the other one.

The motor itself can handle up to 2000w, but best use is no more than 1500w. The motor rating is 500w. When they say 850w, that is the max wattage at 36v.
 
dogman dan said:
30 amps max, and 20 amps continuous spec battery will work with that kit. Of course, a larger battery would be better, because with more ah, it can dish out more amps. Again, cruising full speed will likely be 12-15 amps.

Cool, you've tried that motor... Just to clarify you mean this one I said in the very first post, right?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151610151588?euid=ef1d2e332be743b58cc9156ddd72184c&bu=43085941817&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu
EBike Electric Bike Conversion Kit-Front Hub Motor (20" wheel)
Cost $209.95 + 34.94 shipping.
Direct drive Brushless hi-torque hub Motor. Prewired Speed Controller Unit with 25 Amp current limit. This Controller can be powered by any 48V voltage battery pack with a min. 30A discharging drain. Includes wheel with hub motor (installed), speed controller, throttle, battery bag, brank hand levers
Watts: 850W (MAX). Rated Voltage: 36V/48.

dogman dan said:
It says 25 amps max controller, but I betcha it's actually a 22 amps. FWIW, I've had this same kit. I'm talking about the one in the first post. Don't buy the other one.
The motor itself can handle up to 2000w, but best use is no more than 1500w. The motor rating is 500w. When they say 850w, that is the max wattage at 36v.

Any idea what the "actual" watt rating is? Sounds like if the motor itself can handle up to 2000w, it should be rated must higher than a 250-350w motor mentioned by wesnell...

And this battery:
48V 12AH LIFEPO4 BATTERY PACK POWER FOR EBIKE NEW CELL
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-12AH-LIFEPO ... SwBahVLqHD

I'm a little concerned, about the discharge rate though... even though cruising full speed will likely be 12-15 amps, there is a lot hills around here. So wonder will these long steep hills, if it could be approaching these 30amp max and the Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps if I might be getting in trouble with there...

Chris
 
If you think that kit is even going to come close to the performance of the 1000W kit you tried, you're going to be highly disappointed. It's a mini hub motor and I've never seen one rated over 350W with most being rated for 250W. And 2000W into that little mini hub will kill it and/or that little controller fast. Read this before you waste your money.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
 
Bullshit. That motor is identical to a crystalyte 407. It can handle every bit as much wattage as a 9 continent style 28 mm magnet motor. it's not a "mini"

As I said, it's wattage rating is 500w, just like a 9 continent. They do poorly on 3000w, but up to 2000w they do ok. But bear in mind,, THAT MOTOR HAS NO HALL SENSORS INSIDE. So that limits your controller choices if you ever decide to hot rod it. It's almost surely an Aotema kit.

But, a larger diameter ( 9 continen/ golden motor/ muxus) type direct drive would be a better choice if you have hills. This motor does have a smaller diameter, and less torque on a hill because of the smaller magnet ring. This is why this type DD motor is not made much anymore.

Lots of that bigger rotor type kit out there, cheap, like on amazon or ebay. I would not buy the aotema type for hills.
 
dogman dan said:
... THAT MOTOR HAS NO HALL SENSORS INSIDE. So that limits your controller choices if you ever decide to hot rod it. It's almost surely an Aotema kit. ...
So would that be the motor in this video ?

Aotema Motor Hill Climbing Test (26 inch beach cruiser in San francisco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57A63OofqUQ
HumMotor.jpg
 
Looked like a mini hub to me. If it's a Clyte 407, it's listed in the simulator, and performs pretty good on 48V, but not very good on 36V imo. But at 800W it overheats in 5 minutes on grades. Top speed on 36V 25A in 20" wheel is 17.x mph. 22.x mph on 48V. Still don't think it's a good choice for the money. And a newer model 1000W motor will outperform it and won't over heat as much and the cost is about the same. judge for yourself.
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
BTW, I've never measured the magnets on my 1000W GM motor, but someone that did said they wer 33mm. They are not 9C clones. They are Goldenmotors or GM clones with GM part numbers ob them.
 
@LewTew that is a pretty cool video demonstrating this motor on hills.

$100 more, is a 1200W motor sensored.
https://store.hightekbikes.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=100

Their web site says,
"For going up steep hills with a heavy load, sensors are useful. If you have a heavy trike or go up steep hills, consider this model over the sensorless model. There is an extra cable coming out of the motor to connect the sensors to the controller. "

So this might be worth the extra $$$... Although that youtube video was impressive.

@dogman, I'll take a look at 9 continen, golden motor, muxus for the large diameter motors... Thanks.

@wesnewell, "And a newer model 1000W motor will outperform it and won't over heat as much and the cost is about the same
", that is my concern with hillls, long long steep climbs I'm afraid will burn out the motor... so I may look for a higher watt rating...
when you say 1000W motor can get and cost about the same, any pointers on where that is, appreciate it.

All this advice is great... super appreciate it...

Chris
 
Still reading threads on this forum, lot to take in my search... Read a lot of stuff about staying away from ebay, so maybe worth considering...

As everyone knows, looking for a ebike conversion kit that works well on hills... Looking at this one:
Aotema 1200 Watt Front Motor Kit
https://store.hightekbikes.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=100

Trying to get a battery that works well with it, looking at some of the 52v batteries on Luna. Will those work even though the controller is 48V?
i.e. something like this:
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/52v/52v-panasonic-ebike-pack-11-5-or-13-5ah-slim-line-rear-rack/
30amp continuous BMS (1500 watts)

So cost is starting to move up...
Aotema 1200 Watt Front Motor Kit - $335 + $30 shipping.
Battery $450

So, I'm now over $800 in cost... Even thought about this:
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/48v/triangle-48v-panasonic-pf-18650-20-ah-pack/

Though they are out of stock, but the 20ah sounds like it might be a worthwhile investment. I'm not sold on that newer 1200W sensored Aotema yet. Anyone have any experience with it? Jumping price up of kit including battery to under $1000 think will give me more options... Taking the advice to invest more in battery to start... I think it might be wishful thinking to get a decent kit that works on hills with good battery for $500.
 
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