Which kit for mtb greybeards wanting to keep their fitness ?

OK, done lots of research on this but I've not really come across the answer I'm looking for. Most people want power, lots of it and speed, lots of it. But we want neither ( well maybe a bit ) as we are greybeard 50's pushing 60's die hard mtb riders who want fitness as much as speed and we cycle in typical single track trails with quite a bit of elevation which keeps the speeds low on the uphill bits, but also its quite knarly on the downhill bits which means technical manouvreability and flickability are as important as speed.

But the years of misguided youth, too many MX pranks and general wear and tear on the body is taking its toll, already one of our group is into a knee replacement, another on the way and most of us have ski and other related injuries which are beginning to hold us back from really enjoying what we like, being out in the counryside cycling. Having recently trialled a Trek full susser Ebike it was a bit of a revelation to say the least and more than enough power with its Bosch mid motor power pack. Very smooth on peddling and if you wanted you could dial the power back to give a full workout, but just travelling further than normal, as the ups became a joy rather than a pain. The downside of the Trek is its price and speed restriction on the road. The other is we have very very good high end bikes which are way better than the Trek on the downhill legs. So do we simply convert our bikes ?

So being mtbing in steep hilly country side with speed not really a worry I would guess that a mid mounted motor is the way to go, weight is critical as we have to lift the bikes over styles and fences at times, good pedal assist controllibilty in the nattery and winding stuff is important, and unrestricted speed ( say 50kph max ) with pedalling assist. We are quite engineering based and have good programming and tech savy skills between us. So views and ideas guys as to which options we should pursue.

BBSO2, plenty of power for your described needs and lighter then the BBSHD by 3 lbs or do. Mini chainring, 11.5 ah battery max. And quit whining about getting older, you don't know what old is!

Half the conversion weight will be battery so make sure it comes off for getting over them fences.

If I had a beard, it would be grey. I would also suggest a 48 volt BBS02 mid drive, currently around $499 from one US vendors, and a little less direct from China via ebay. I put one together this Spring. It will run 45 kph (edited) on 26" wheels, with a 48 front sprocket and rear 13 gear. The effort was almost trivial. Bottom bracket cones were finger tight, but the pedal arms had to be sawed off after my puller stripped the threads.

If you really are going to be true to your biking instincts and lay off the power, you can try small 6AH and 7.5AH batteries from Lunacycle, that weigh about 4 lbs and give you maybe an hour of pedal assist. Probably fit in a triangle bag too, but I would try a larger battery first.

Second the BBS02 recommendation. You will love it, guaranteed.

However a word on bike choice. BBS02 needs a 73mm BB. With newer frames the BBS02 will hang a bit lower because the downtube is curved and more horizontal near the crank than older style straight downtubes. Also the super short chainstay may not enough room for the bbs02. You can use a 42 tooth chainring that leaves the chain line in ok shape or use a spider adapter and put on a smaller chainring that pushes out the chainline.

Bottom line, you may need to go back in time to some older models for a great fit. Maybe you have such a steed in your stable already, maybe you need to watch pinkbike for a bit, but consider keeping your awesome pedal bike as an awesome pedal bike.

Batteries will probably work best in a backpack to keep the bike lighter and because there arent many places to put a battery on most FS mtbs. It's nice to have two batteries so you can do a few runs up the hill, swap out and then do a few more I actually stuck batteries under the downtube on my build but it's not a great DH setup.

Good luck!

If you don't mind a little extra reduction sound, and a fair upgrade cost, consider the tangent middrive also.

I'm pretty sure it's lighter than any bbsxx, and much more power capable. Perhaps I'm misguided but I think this could mean the best efficiency possible, for the most modest battery possibility. (also the most possible fun when you want to use some decent watts)
The battery is a large percentage of cost and weight, so without need big speed and power all the time, maybe you could still have the best of both worlds with a tangent.

For the best true bike experience I'd get a decent high discharge pack, x 2. Run only one for shorter trips, and run both or swap out for the long ones. That could mean lipo for a decent discharge outof a sub 10lb pack though.

I'm behind the times, the BBSHD offers much wider range of bottom bracket widths. Those thread may help you pick the perfect bike.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79889#p1178267

Thanks guys and no not whining about us elders, still doing an awful lot more than most younger fellows but the time is coming where we may just need a bit of pedal assist to aid the battered limbs.

OK the BFS02 is where I had got to but we don't need that kind of power ( or do we ) and I guess we can only use what power we need. A question on the BFS02, there seems to be both 500 W and 750 W at quite different prices and yet I think they are the same unit but running at 36 volt and 48 volt respectively. Can you simply buy the 500 W and fit a 48 volt battery if needed.

The other thing is I hear the Bafung units are not great if you are using pedal assist mode and quite jerky when the power comes on, is there anyway of softening the power ramp up perhaps.

The BBS01 36v 500w is different unit. It's a little lighter with different electronics. But the nice batteries are at 48v so stick with that.

It's possible to get a programming cable and tweaks settings on the unit some of which affect PAS. It will always be a bit lame but it can be dialed in a little.

That being said I got used to the PAS pretty quick and wouldn't let it stop you from getting an otherwise awesome system.

Be aware, people are talking 45kmh. Is that a bit of assist, or are you going to give up cycling and build a motorbike.

A 250w hub motor is a very fit cyclist. Rated to level the field and weighs maybe 4.5lb
It's the world standard for cyclists wanting to move with the flow.

Get the best of both using a DD hub motor. If you want exercise, just go light on the throttle and pedal along with the motor. That's what I do on my daily 10 mile ride. Set cc fo ~ 10mph and then pedal with it to a higher speed decreasing amp draw from the battery. Then If I need to actually go somewhere in a hurry, I can just crank the throttle up to 40 mph. And trust me. You'll be glad you have regen braking trying to stop from speeds above 20mph, much less faster speeds. Pedal up to no load speed and the bike pedals just like a regular bike.

My ride tonight was my geared hub. Chosen because I wanted to cycle and have power in reserve for hills and quick starts. This bike only has a 5Ah battery and over 10 miles I used one of them. This bike is focused on minimum carry, to keep it as similar to a non powered bike as possible.
Comparatively, a DD can't be used without power if your in a position where the power was to help you cycle. The DD motor has a parasitic drain as you have to keep turning the whole thing and it also has magnetic resistance. The geared hub has a clutch so without power it's a normal bike. This alone is a big issue for myself. Even if I loaded up with enough battery to feel confident It wouldn't run out, I still wouldn't want to be off road and having to hold a throttle in place. I simply couldn't with my mtb though a road bike might be different.

I think a typical DD is about 14lb's and then a reasonable battery for such a thing perhaps 10lbs more. It must be big, as a DD doesn't get the 5:1 torque advantage of a typical geared motor. So needs a lot more juice to climb at mtb speeds. Though it's lack of reduction does mean it's ultimately quicker. Motorbike quick. While a 250w geared hub is not really going to reach 25mph and is better for targeting about 18mph. Which in our survey here was the speed most people felt happy with, that didn't want to do 40mph. You see there are two different groups. The cyclists that want some assistance are nearly all satisfied with reaching 18mph without trying. Feeling it a comfortable speed. Then you get the people that don't pedal and want to go as fast as possible. It really is that clean cut in 80% of cases.

IIRC Australia got about 200W as did China and the UK got 180w. Then the EU settled on 250w and most of the world fell in line. America don't really do pedelecs though, as seen from the sluggish sales there. There is a kinda trailer park thing going on where an unlicensed motorcycle is really what they want. The Europeans have infiltrated with their small cars but overall it's still a culture that wants to drive a huge truck to the drive through for a huge burger to fit their huge belly. A normal bike doing normal bike speeds isn't what a US enthusiast is likely to go for.

Don't get me wrong. I don't ride a 250w bike myself. However I barely turned my motor on tonight and when I did it was set for less. I'm just being broadly stereotypical in an effort to educate you at a rapid rate.


I say go and get a test ride.

You're wrong on about every count.
1) You can certainly use a DD hub motor without battery power. The resistance of most is minimal. In fact, it's nil if you just use the battery to provide power when you stop pedaling past no load speed.
2) With CC, you don't have to hold the throttle in place. You don't even have to touch the throttle once you engage cc.
3) You need no more battery for a DD hub than you do for a geared hub, or mid drive for that matter. A 5ah pack will work fine with a DD hub.
4) I don't know many people that would be happy with 18mph top speed. Most prefer a top speed of ~30mph or more here in the US.
I won't even respond to your last ignorant remark.

Agree with some of what you guys are saying, but my specific off road routes we do are a bit tight and knarly with quite a lot of hill starts and slow uphill climbs in amongst trees and bushes, which sort of negates the use of hub motor, which would be always at its worst operating loading on the battery and getting limited cooling. Logic would say a mid mounted engine using the gears of the bike and spinning at a much higher speed through its own gearbox would be far more effcient and less likely to get cooling problems.

Yes 18mph top speed wouldn't be far off although we do a lot more freewheeling down some of the steeper runs we do, but if you could avearage 18 - 22 mph on the road you would'nt complain. That would almost lend itself then to a mini Bafung motor of say 150W only, weighing next to nothing with only a 5ah battery, anything like this out there.

Anybody know the answer to the Bafung BFS02 unit, is it the same unit and controller for both the 500W and 750W, if so why the difference in the price or is that a typical sales ruse.

Thanks for all the replies and keep them coming.

Thanks Wes, for ignoring that "friendly" remark. It's gone now. But you are dead wrong, that what this person needs is a heavy direct drive hub motor.

Back to topic, I've done a LOT of dirt riding, with hub motors. The direct drive one I use most, weighs 25 pounds!! It fits a specific ride I do most, loosing my dogs in a flat desert area. One of those pooches has a habit of taking off, and boogieing through the mesquites pretty darn fast. So a flyweight motorcycle IS the preferred tool for this particular ride. It's got 2000w, and no way that dog gets away with me chasing it on that thing. Nevertheless, until the dog takes off, I ride this bike slow, at dog trot pace, using about 100-200w of assist. I have a throttle, and control the motor power easily. I don't have to wheelie, or ride 25 mph.

My other trail bike is also a hub motor, a lightweight, but powerful geared motor. This bike is ideal for me for riding trails in the desert. I tend to pedal on this bike at all times, and again, use only the power I need, to make an uphill grind in the mountains easy. I only ride uphill 10-15 mph, depending on trail difficulty, and descend at the same pussy speeds.

The trails around here are plenty steep, but to be honest about it, the hub motor does start to heat up too much if I take the worst, insanely steep, rock staircases. Because I'm 57, skied double black diamonds on telemark skis for a lifetime, and did construction work, and had a really bad bicycle crash about 8 years ago, I really don't ride those trails too much. So for me, the trails I ride go just fine with a rear hub motor. Yes, it does handle different from a bare bike, but since I don't want to ride faster than I'm willing to go over the bars, I don't find it limits me. It does not handle as well as a mid drive, but the way I ride, I really don't get limited by it at all.

However,,,, Next time I decide to invest in a bike motor, It WILL be a mid drive. I rode them at interbike, on a rocky desert trail, and loved them. Definitely the tool you want, when you have that short bit that's 25% grade. Sounds like you still ride pretty gnarly compared to me. You want a mid drive. Doesn't sound like you need more than 300w-500w, like the bosch stuff. Just figure out which BBso whatever unit will fit your favorite bike best.

Don't worry about too much power, Soon you will be using it, riding faster up the hills. But keeping it set to a lower power setting might help you not be unwelcome on the local trails, using a motor. I guarantee you my 2000w hub motor is not welcome on my local trails. So keep it below 750w, even if you have more, when on trails you don't want to lose access to. But on a fire road,,,, let er rip.

Speed and power is not everybodies initial desire but I would suspect it becomes addictive as most posters seem to go from small hub motors and on up into the stratosphere with insanely powerful mid drives. Thats not what we want, we want to just be able to continue mountain biking with a bit of ease up the hills on the lower limbs and be still be able to lift the bikes over the gates and styles which the Uk seems to still have in places until nature rots them away and they are not replaced.

So are there any alternatives to the Bafung mid motors and units or are they as good as they get for the moment ?

Ok, you are in the UK, that sort of changes things a bit, at least legally.

I'd now say get the 36v, BBs01, if it can fit on one of your better bikes. Closer to UK legal at least. And really, in a mid drive, it's plenty.

Till you say where you are, or I notice it where you said it,,, I was sort of assuming you lived in the US, maybe the NW. It sort of sounded like rocky mountain riding you described. So I thought you might dig 1000 w for faster rides up fire roads.

You can put your location in your user profile, in the user control panel, then your location is there in every post. You can just say what continent, and it helps, if you don't want to give your city.

Get it here, Paul at EM3ev is a stellar vendor for the bafang mid drive. http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=50_45&product_id=183

Do research that it will fit your bike, before you buy it. You will only have one front ring now, but won't need the tiny one anymore.

dogman dan said:

Thanks Wes, for ignoring that "friendly" remark. It's gone now. But you are dead wrong, that what this person needs is a heavy direct drive hub motor.

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He may well be happy with a small geared hub, but that doesn't make anything I posted wrong about DD hubs. If he wants something light and legal, then there's not really much of a choice. Personally, I find putting a 250W motor on a bike a waste of time and money, but I'm not limited by stupid 250W laws and circumstances.

Thanks for all the replies so far, yup we live in quite a rolling hills ( Chiltern Hills ) environment which has loads of very accessiable lanes and a lot of single track, we can easily put in 2 - 3000 ft of climb in a couple of hours of riding, its either up or down and very little fire road of the type we get in Wales.

I wouldn't worry too much about being legal, quiteness and ease of riding would be higher on priority, we also do very few on road miles, preferrring the quietness of the woods and hills.

I was on the understanding the BFS01 was an older generation motor and had the more easily damaged control pack ? The other thing that worried me a little was the very large front single ring, we tend to ride on the 32T mid ring or in the 22T granny ring and rarely get into the top ring.

Hub motors I think are out so lets concentrate on the smaller mid mount motors.

FME riding BBS02 and Bosch on a variety of trails:
1 BBS02 (52V, 10 a/h) was tamed nicely for off road with a 30 tooth ring (Luna Cycle), although top speed was reduced from 30+ mph to 20+ mph.
2) The torque, speed, rpm-sensed Bosch system was better for gnarly ascents than the rpm-sensed BBS02 although I'm learning to pedal more smoothly with the BBS02 which helps immensely. For all other off road uses the rpm-sensed system is fine.
3) Can't wait until someone produces a lightweight BBS01-type motor that adds 5-7 pounds, not 10-12 to the bike. Then, only 8-10 pounds extra with a 52V (14s, 2p) battery.

wesnewell said:

You're wrong on about every count.
1) You can certainly use a DD hub motor without battery power. The resistance of most is minimal. In fact, it's nil if you just use the battery to provide power when you stop pedaling past no load speed.
2) With CC, you don't have to hold the throttle in place. You don't even have to touch the throttle once you engage cc.
3) You need no more battery for a DD hub than you do for a geared hub, or mid drive for that matter. A 5ah pack will work fine with a DD hub.
4) I don't know many people that would be happy with 18mph top speed. Most prefer a top speed of ~30mph or more here in the US.
I won't even respond to your last ignorant remark.

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1 Turn it over then and lets see you spin it by hand.
2 Again your telling us to carry a battery to cancel out the parasitic losses. It's just extra weight and undermines the idea the losses are minimal. Many have said they don't like cycling home with a flat battery of other fault, and they were not users that wanted a battery to take a few years off their age.
3 Your going straight to a home made RC lipo pack. Most 5Ah packs won't provide the power to pull the skin off a rice pudding with with a DD hub. They have no gear advantage. At typical mtb accent speeds they got nothing. The 3000w DD motor people are snapping up has about the same claimed torque as a 500w bafang. Yet needs more power.
4 I said it was a survey here, because it is. You simply fall in the other of the two stereotypical groups. So your blind to being the minority https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66106&p=994158&hilit=comfortable+speed&sid=17795ea76891382e664dbe33f8953317#p994158

I guess if you can't see this you can't see a joke either. One now removed, though my efforts to show it was a joke left? So I have taken that away myself. However it's just a play on stereotypes your have in part confirmed. Your earlier post was fine. Mine is just different. Not an attack on yours. I said as much. Just because I feel the OP may share a different viewpoint doesn't mean we have to argue it out. It seems they will go mid drive. I just want them to see all options. You just like to argue though. I have had a number of arguments on the internet over the last few years. All here with you. I think it's time you asked me out to dinner.


I would like a mid drive, but isn't there an issue with changing gears with the power on? The problem of a snapped chain stopping all drive bothers me a little, and the wear rate on the components. Then chain skip. I seem to slip out of index quite often and would this leave to falling backwards as I eat my cassette... I just don't know. Plus the noise is surely higher than my Sinewave drivern hub motor which doesn't ever skip a cog of fail to climb embankments. My tyres give up first.

The mid will certainly climb something steeper which would lead to me tackling more things perhaps, but should it go wrong during such an occasion I could really regret it.

I'm going to though.

Yes 18mph top speed wouldn't be far off although we do a lot more freewheeling down some of the steeper runs we do, but if you could avearage 18 - 22 mph on the road you would'nt complain. That would almost lend itself then to a mini Bafung motor of say 150W only, weighing next to nothing with only a 5ah battery, anything like this out there.

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Certainly similar. A 2.1kg cute q100h 260rpm in a 26" wheel would make it to 22mph but the power consumption for that speed is a bit higher than 150w no matter what motor. It would want perhaps the 10ah 48v shark pack with internal 18amp controller, weighing in around 3.5kg and may produce 40nm which is 10% hill stuff. I would have to check.

d8veh lives around Telford and knows a fair bit about hills and borderline legal setups. He may talk about the two speed hub, but I won't get involved with that.

1. Just go on youtube and you can see many dd hubs being spun by hand. It's not a big deal.
2. I'm not telling you anything but facts. I guess you aren't going to use a battery with your motor. This makes no sense. You can use the same size battery for a dd motor as you do for a geared motor. All this tells me is you don't have a clue.
3. My 5ah 44.4V pack cost $45 and is rated for 100A. Yep it took me a little under a minute to put together three 5ah 4s lipo packs.. Yes, all I use is rc lipo. I've got over 4 years and 15K miles on my current pack. There's nothing better for ebike use imo.
4. Surveys are worthless. I wouldn't waste my time looking at them.

2old said:

3) Can't wait until someone produces a lightweight BBS01-type motor that adds 5-7 pounds, not 10-12 to the bike. Then, only 8-10 pounds extra with a 52V (14s, 2p) battery.

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I'm working on it!

wesnewell said:

Personally, I find putting a 250W motor on a bike a waste of time and money, but I'm not limited by stupid 250W laws and circumstances.

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You also ride an incredibly heavy, inefficient, and ill-fitting department store bike that probably eats up 250W well before it reaches 15mph.

250W, plus pedal power, all through the gears of a real bike that isn't doing its best to hold you back, results in as much speed as most people are likely to enjoy on a bicycle.

PaulD, good luck; keep at it.