Getting the most from 200w - Geared hub vs Mid drive Austral

=BicycleRider= · Jul 20, 2016

I am totally new to ebikes I have never ridden one but I want to convert my Gitane Mach 1400 (700c road type bike) to an ebike.

I have been looking at a 200w planetary geared hub motor available in Australia for about $440 (not including battery) but also I am looking at mid drive motors such as the Cyclone ones. If the motor cuts out with the mid drive kits can I disengage the motor from the chain, or do I have to peddle the motor as well? Do the mid drive kits have to move the peddles around whenever the motor is on?

So I'm comparing something like this.
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/

With something like this
http://www.solarbike.com.au/conversion_kits.php

I live in an area with some light hills (Reynella, SA), one of the places I wanted to ride to has a return trip going up a slope on a bike track along side a freeway, I haven't measured the gradient but it wouldn't be huge because there is a freeway there as well but it is fairly long.

My bicycle currently has only 2 sprockets in the middle section so it doesn't have the low gears of other bikes.
Also I didn't want to spent a lot of money on a really expensive kit. Also hoping for something that isn't too difficult to install.

What do people suggest?

Rodney64 · Jul 21, 2016

I originally started with a solar bike kit. They're MXUS motors and good quality Panasonic cells in the batteries. The cyclone is a motor that's a complicated build but if your'e mechanically minded you will be ok. Otherwise stay with the hub motor kit.

Lurkin · Jul 21, 2016

AFT also make a 200w middrive. The advantage being the middrive will have the benefit of your gearing as well. I've been looking into 200w options recently as well - Conhismotor also supposedly makes 200w direct drive motors, which for my application would be very beneficial due to the ability to use regenerative braking... Food for thought. Small hub motors also attract very little attention, unlike 'guts on the outside' middrive set ups....

=BicycleRider= · Jul 21, 2016

Thanks for all the info, I looked at the AFT kits but they are significantly more expensive.

I'm by no means a bicycle mechanic or expert so then do you think a mid drive kit isn't the way to go?

What type of hills could you climb with the 200w solar bike kit, what sort of range could you get, say without peddling much for an example, what type of speed could you reach on hills vs on the flats?

Is there a big difference between the hub motor and the mid drive for light to moderate hills, range etc. on concrete type bicycle paths.

Rodney64 · Jul 21, 2016

With a legal kit from solar bike 200 watts maximum speed would be 25kph and around 35 to 40 kilometres with mild peddling with a 36 volt 11 Amp hour pack. Less if you don't pedal, 25 KM. On hills you will need to pedal, any hill the mini motor will need help. The Solar bikes mini motor is a MXUS mini geared motor and they're good.

=BicycleRider= · Jul 21, 2016

Thanks, what speed do you think you could reach with the 200w hub motor without peddling? I've never had any sort of speed measurements when riding, but can't you ride about 20kph with mild peddling without a motor?

If you had the exact same motor power as a mid drive how would you expect those performance/range stats to change?

dogman dan · Jul 21, 2016

Just in terms of laws of phyiscs, wind drag vs watts, 200w of electric motor power will get you about 24 kph on the flat, no pedaling, give or take a few kph. This does not matter if the motor is a tiny hub motor, a huge hub motor, or a mid drive. 200w is a finite amount of power. In terms of how long your battery lasts,, if you draw 200 watts, a 200 watt hour battery will last one hour, and so on. But just because a system is rated 200w, does not always mean it cannot draw more than that. It might develop 500w peak power. Just depends on the exact specs of the controller. So a 200w system still may be able to blow through your battery faster than you think.

How they work into a head wind, up a hill, or when loaded down very heavy is another story. Load up, and the mid drive can win because it can change gears and run more efficiently.

Pedaling, your wattage does not have the electronic losses, heating up shit, that the electric system does. Pretty brisk pedaling along with 200w electric can get you to the 35 kph ballpark.

If all you weigh is 200 pounds, and all you need to do is cruise up and down moderate hills, the hub motor will work fine. If you need to tow a trailer, weigh 350 pounds, or need to climb hills steeper than 5% grade, then you need a mid drive,, AND, you need to get a bike that does have the low gears.

Or,, you need more than 200w, to do the heavy work with hub motors.

=BicycleRider= · Jul 21, 2016

Thanks lots of useful info I didn't realise.

Maybe it could be good enough, I'm not sure what the grade would be, the steepest (long part) is along side a freeway, I'm not sure what specs in terms of incline those are made for. If I travelled any further than that it would be all flat.

I would really like to be able to go about 30 kilometres distance, where I would be going uphill for about 3-4kms up and down and up again then downhill for about 2km and on perfectly flat paths for the rest of the distance. But it may not be possible.

Not loaded up with any extras only about 200 pounds total weight + the bike which is a fairly light but basic road bike (not carbon fibre).

Rodney64 · Jul 21, 2016

Mid drive is alot more efficient and will handle the hills better but more expensive. This Adelaide shop has the 250 watt kit in mid drive.

http://www.micchapman.com.au/#!product/prd1/3905049091/mid-drive-kit-bbs01-36v-250-350w

wineboyrider · Jul 21, 2016

If I had to limit myself to 200w I would definitely get a mid drive setup and probably with a sram dual drive setup so that you can have the full range of gears for hills etc.

=BicycleRider= · Jul 21, 2016

Thanks, any more suggestions for ones that don't cost too much more than the hub one and are not too difficult to install?

Cephalotus · Jul 21, 2016

=BicycleRider= said:
What type of hills could you climb with the 200w solar bike kit, what sort of range could you get, say without peddling much for an example, what type of speed could you reach on hills vs on the flats?

You can expect to climb any hill that you can climb now without an e-motor. Just more easily and faster. This may sound trivial, but it is excactly what will happen.

The hub motor has 200W of nominal power, compareable to an extra human, but only limited torque. So if you can not hold the speed the motors added power will shrink. If you want to climb steep hills that you are not able to climb without an e-motor you need a mid drive motor that can produce the needed extra torque when climbing very slowly in a low gear.

This is NOT a suggestion to by a a mid drive (I clearly prefer hub drives for various reasons), it's just what you can expect on hills.

If you can climb hills on your own everythings is perfectly fine with a 200W hub drive, you will go fast and you will have double the power than you have now (if you are fit). So instead of climbing a hill at 12km/h you will climb it at 20-25km/h...

But you will NOT climb a super steep ascent in 6km/h instead of 3km/h.

=BicycleRider= · Jul 21, 2016

Thanks some good info, what are the reasons you prefer hub motors?

The bicycle I have now lacks the smallest sprocket on the mid section so I would need to have one added to go up hills, I'm not sure if this is easy to do or not, what I would need to buy, if I could just order a sprocket or if I would need to take it to a bicycle shop or not.

mountain biker · Jul 21, 2016

I noticed the cyclone kit has a triple chain ring option. Meaning one to attach to motor and two rings for gearing they offer a 24t with a 48t. Now couple that with cassette and quite a bunch of gear. Combo. But none the less. I have read it takes 400 watts on a mountain bike to go 20 mph. And that is 400 watts to wheel spinning at@ 240 rpm on mob tire roughly. You will lose 20 percent of your 250 watts to heat on flats and this increases with the hill till your motor stops and smokes.

Lurkin · Jul 21, 2016

If I was trying to do things legally, I would be looking at buying an EN compliant 250w complete bike rather than bothering with 200w. Its really not a lot of power for the money.... At least a finished bike will be 50w higher and still legal and lets face it, most of the bosch bikes can be 'delimited' to 350w with relatively undetectable software change.

But it sounds like that would be outside your budget. A mid drive will allow you to match your gearing to your speed, which is exactly what Cephalotus is explaining to you. Its a mid drives main advantage over a hub motor. Other advantages include not having to build a wheel with custom spokes (as a hub motor will generally be larger than a normal bicycle hub), accordingly standard replacement spokes and wheels can be used... so on.

I think you just need to understand - usually cheaper mid drive kits require maintenance and/or fiddling about to get the most out of them over time. The more expensive kits, like Bafang or AFT, tend to be more durable. Bafang is also significantly easier to install and is very tidy given the controller is part of the motor unit. I'm not sure if they have a 200w unit, but they certainly have a 250w unit (which I have) which is very discrete.

Having said that, I'm switching to hub motors after being pretty disappointed with the lack of longevity and amount of overall fiddling with middrives. Each to their own....

Samd · Jul 21, 2016

What sort of hills are in your area? What top speed are you trying to hit?

=BicycleRider= · Jul 21, 2016

Well I'm not exactly sure what the hills are like I've never really measured a hill gradient. Is there any way to show gradients on google maps?

I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere so I don't mind as long as the top speed doesn't feel really slow. I would be happy to go at casual riding speed. I would like the novelty of being able to travel without peddling at all sometimes.

It's sounding like the hub motors may be more practical because I am certainly not any sort of expert at fixing bicycles. I thought with the road bike I might get a bit more out of the 200w than with a mountain bike.

Other thing I could maybe do is to get a new sprocket for the bicycle and just peddle up the slope without any motor. When you are adding a sprocket to the mid sprockets do you normally just add an extra sprocket or do you install a complete set of three and take the old set of two off, anyone know? The outer sprocket says Shimano Octalink.

=BicycleRider= · Jul 22, 2016

Ok I've just been reading about some of the dangers of a front hub motor if it ever breaks and locks.

Has anyone replaced their back wheel with a hub motor kit? (the type where you buy the wheel with a hub motor already in it).

Lurkin · Jul 22, 2016

Its not uncommon for the rim supplied with a built hub motor, to be utter rubbish. Kinda better to build a rear wheel from scratch, but has the risk involved of buying the wrong spokes or being unable to build a rear wheel due to skill level...

2old · Jul 22, 2016

1) Go to the reviews section and read what tats and byebyepetrol say. Both started with hub motors and are now on mid drives. In general you will have only one chainring, but you can make it work by selecting the correct number of teeth. You will need bottom bracket tools.
2) If your front fork is not steel, seriously consider NOT making a front hub conversion.
3) Review rear hub kits carefully; I've encountered few that allow a rear cassette, rather have a freewheel. This will limit your low gears IMO.

=BicycleRider= · Jul 22, 2016

Thanks, yes the front forks are not steel (they are not magnetic). So I wouldn't be able to get say the solar bike kit and install it as the back wheel instead of as the front?

Samd · Jul 22, 2016

Yeah you sure could. Keep it under a kilowatt and fit a small torque arm.

If you're just starting out its a nice easy conversion.

A rear conversion is not so hard either. Not that you can use a front kit as a rear or vice versa.

Where are you based? Find a local buddy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

=BicycleRider= · Jul 22, 2016

Thanks, does anyone know if there is any geared rear wheel hub kit that is 200w available anywhere?

=BicycleRider= · Jul 23, 2016

Thanks, I found out I can get the geared hub motor kit as rear wheel version, so even though the mid drive kit could possibly be better, for a first time kit and with limited bike mechanic skills, and I haven't found a 200w mid drive kit apart from the cyclone one it would probably be the best to get the hub.

I am not in a hurry to go anywhere, I don't mind if I'm not going that fast, I wouldn't be working to any timetable when riding. But I would like the novelty of not having to have to peddle on the flat and going at a medium speed. I'm hoping battery technology will get better in the future though because they are currently very expensive with limited range.

Are there any ni-mh ebike batteries available (ie. using d cells), ready made as packs with controllers? I read that some electric cars are still using them at over 90% percent after 100,000kms. How long would a lifepo4 battery last?

friendly1uk · Jul 23, 2016

You realise the 200w limit is old don't you? While still in effect, you also have the 250W eu regulations running along side. Meaning a 15.5mph limit and no throttle, but 250w average with no peak figure.

Getting the most from 200w - Geared hub vs Mid drive Austral

1 W

100 kW

100 kW

1 W

100 kW

1 W

1 PW

1 W

100 kW

1 MW

1 W

10 kW

1 W

100 W

100 kW

10 MW

1 W

1 W

100 kW

100 kW

1 W

10 MW

1 W

1 W

1 MW

Similar threads