Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by MadRhino » Jun 19 2020 6:09am

I normally set my steer angle to the slackest and my suspension to the longest for mountain trail riding.

For street, I limit the suspension travel to 4-5 inch and set the steer angle 1° steeper.

Since I rarely use the street bike in mountain trails, but often use the dirt bike on the street, I have my V10 front end a tad short and the rear a tad saggy. So, my body weight transfer can make it slacker when needed in the mountain, while a straight seated position is pretty good for nimbleness.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by giraf0 » Jul 30 2020 12:54pm

Here is video with boxxbike and moto enduro moto...check it out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3tcNgNzizQ&t=1s

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by MadRhino » Jul 30 2020 2:26pm

I only buy frames with 2’’ head tube, to be able to fit the complete range of angle set. Most of the time for dirt I set the slackest though, that would be 63.7°

If I can’t achieve it with an older frame, I use different means like mod height of custom dropouts, or riding a larger wheel on the front.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by MadRhino » Jul 30 2020 2:38pm

PS. I prefer this new version of the Boxbike to the Sur-Ron that is too compact for me.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by Tommm » Jul 30 2020 2:44pm

I wonder how the concentric pivot is done. It looks like they don't need a tensioner on the drive side. It is funny in all of the vids they are going full throttle, yet they include bike cassette, shifter, derailleur...
Single speed would be just fine with this build, with the amount of pedalling you do. It would save weight, complexity and make it more reliable.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by giraf0 » Jul 31 2020 5:06am

In the Europe our customers are moto enduro riders, Boxxbike has body of e MTB and soul of 250ccm motorbike enduro.
If you see people you pedal, you are alone then you can enjoy moto enduro free ride...

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie :

Post by scrambler » Feb 26 2021 8:10pm

Anyone has its hands on the new Boxxbike and can report ?
Last edited by scrambler on Feb 20 2022 1:02pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by passuff » Feb 27 2021 2:36am

I like the idea in general - especially that you don't need a chain tensioner but as there is no torque sensing I could buy a SurRon too...

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie :

Post by scrambler » Feb 27 2021 12:30pm

Torque sensing is definitely a high item for me too.
May be they can / will upgrade the cadence sensor to a torque sensor...
Last edited by scrambler on Feb 20 2022 1:02pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by passuff » Feb 27 2021 1:23pm

Almost impossible to add torque sensing in that cyclone mid drive unit but you can do force sensing on rear fork. I talked to cyclone but they don't want and olan to add it in the future.
You should check agazzini enduro 2. unfortunately the aluminum version was just a prototype and the final version will be a carbon one where I'm out again.
The chain/powertrain desing of LMX64 is definitely outdated so I need to wait....hopefully in the near future there will be LHD fully with a smart drive train, still beeing a sport machine and no motocross bike. If it's made from aluminum and not more than 30kg, has L1E approval and is below 8k€ it will be mine immediately...

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie :

Post by scrambler » Feb 27 2021 1:36pm

passuff wrote:
Feb 27 2021 1:23pm
Almost impossible to add torque sensing in that cyclone mid drive unit but you can do force sensing on rear fork.
With current off the shelf torque sensors, may be not, but I get the feel there could be some place for one in their config...
I am also hoping controllers will integrate the possibility to use inputs from power meters. These can be fitted in more convenient locations like pedals, cranks...
passuff wrote:
Feb 27 2021 1:23pm
The chain/powertrain design of LMX64 is definitely outdated so I need to wait....hopefully in the near future there will be LHD fully with a smart drive train, still being a sport machine and no motocross bike. If it's made from aluminum and not more than 30kg, has L1E approval and is below 8k€ it will be mine immediately...
I am not sure what part of the power train you find outdated.
For a hybrid that offers both Light motorcycle mode and Electric pedal assist MTB, combined with a powerful motor, decoupling the motor power train and the pedaling one is the way too go.
What I do want is an IGH or a Pinion gearbox to get rid of the derailleur. Pinion is the better solution on paper (Wide range, less gears, central), but it creates the problem of the torque sensing location and crowds the center of the bike.

Not sure what the rear dropout is on the Boxxbike, but it may very well be possible to fit a Kindernay IGH there with an adapter for the Motor sprocket/disk brake).

What do you mean by "LHD Fully"?

If you like the agazzini, checkout the Wattwagons Hydra, it uses the Bafand Ultra with the innotrace controller for 2300W of power, with Torque sensing and very smooth delivery, and a 900Wh battery
Last edited by scrambler on Feb 20 2022 1:02pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by passuff » Feb 27 2021 2:48pm

Any link for a powermeter? No idea what it is...
The motor has low rpm high torque and needs a big rear sprocket. Even worse is the rear droput linkage/pivot. I would prefer to have an intermediate shaft/pully in the pivot point so ther will be no need for chain tensioners and no forces on the dropout while accelerating.
If you just have pedal force on the dereilleur there is no need for an IGH or a gearbox as they add a lot of weight which I would prefer to put in battery capacity.
LHD is irritating indeed. Actually it means Left Hand Drive but in this case folks mean power drive on the left side separated from pedal force. This is a must have for my next bike.
That's why bafang ultra and other mid drive motors are not working for me. Additionally bafangs and innotrace understanding of torque sensing is not what I like. I'm currently using a silixcon controller which is alsoused in LMX64. It's the most precise torque based assist logic I ever drove in >1000W class...

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie :

Post by scrambler » Feb 27 2021 3:24pm

*** Power meters are used by regular cyclist to measure the pedaling effort.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/be ... r-cycling/
Some measure the pressure on pedals, some the torque on the cranks or the spider ...

In that sense, they do the same as what a torque sensor does, but they communicate their data via ANT+ or Bluetooth to a dedicated controller. If a Motor controller supported these protocols (silixcon say they will), one could possibly use the output signal of a power meter to drive the pedal assist and that would open up ways to do Torque/power sensing pedal assist on bikes without a traditional Bottom bracket (like the boxxbike).

*** The IGH is a matter of preference :) I for one do not want to deal with a derailleur on an ebike and the small extra weight is way worth it, especially on a powerful one like the Boxxbike !

*** Can You elaborate on what you mean by "Additionally bafangs and innotrace understanding of torque sensing is not what I like" ??
Last edited by scrambler on Feb 20 2022 1:02pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by passuff » Feb 27 2021 3:39pm

In the end the silixcon assist logic is based on human power which is derived from torque (not bending force) of the crank pedals and the crank speed (like other controllers too). The way you can cut and filter the raw and calculated signals makes it superior for my feeling.

I like the idea of ANT+ stuff but in the case of the described powermeters its definetly something really cool. Putting one of these on the Boxxbike would be really interesing. On the other side the cost of a powetermetering spider is a no go and I bet the crank versions are not the precision we are looking for. But I would be interested to see such a project.
How is Silixcon going to implement ANT+. Do they plan it for current controller series with an CAN/UART interface or do they plan it for the upcoming series?

Did you drive Innotrace or Bafang Ultra stock controller yet? For my feeling the assist is filtered to death and not really smart...

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by MadRhino » Feb 27 2021 4:14pm

The method of reading the power applied to the crank is not an issue. There are many reliable, instant power monitoring devices today. The difference is in the controller software, because it is not where the info is coming from, but how it is treated and transformed into an intuitive result by the controller outputted power curve that is making the impression on the rider’s control of his bike. That is why, even though using the same motor and torque sensing, some ebikes are giving the rider a much better feeling of control over acceleration.

I prefer a throttle because my hand is a much more precise tool than my feet. Yet, I have found some PAS ebikes pretty intuitive to ride. Software development is getting better, since some manufacturers are investing a lot to improve PAS.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 27 2021 6:31pm

scrambler wrote:
Feb 26 2021 8:10pm
Anyone has its hands on the new Boxxbike and can report ?
Ill be able to report something in the next week or 2... ;)

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 27 2021 6:32pm

MadRhino wrote:
Feb 27 2021 4:14pm
The method of reading the power applied to the crank is not an issue. There are many reliable, instant power monitoring devices today. The difference is in the controller software, because it is not where the info is coming from, but how it is treated and transformed into an intuitive result by the controller outputted power curve that is making the impression on the rider’s control of his bike. That is why, even though using the same motor and torque sensing, some ebikes are giving the rider a much better feeling of control over acceleration.

I prefer a throttle because my hand is a much more precise tool than my feet. Yet, I have found some PAS ebikes pretty intuitive to ride. Software development is getting better, since some manufacturers are investing a lot to improve PAS.
if you've got some suggestions ive got plans to add it to mine.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie :

Post by scrambler » Feb 27 2021 6:59pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Feb 27 2021 6:31pm
scrambler wrote:
Feb 26 2021 8:10pm
Anyone has its hands on the new Boxxbike and can report ?
Ill be able to report something in the next week or 2... ;)
Please do !!

Looking forward to finding out more details on the bike, how it handles, and as how the Cadence pedal assist behaves.
Last edited by scrambler on Feb 20 2022 1:03pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by scrambler » Feb 27 2021 7:00pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Feb 27 2021 6:32pm
if you've got some suggestions ive got plans to add it to mine.
Do you mean you want to find a way to add torque sensing?

If so, have you (can you) mentioned it to Boxxbike to see if they are thinking about it?
If it becomes a request, they may decide to implement it natively :)
Last edited by scrambler on Feb 27 2021 8:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 27 2021 8:56pm

Boxxbike Valkyrie comparison with KTM moto enduro...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3tcNgNzizQ
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie :

Post by scrambler » Mar 07 2021 2:10pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Feb 27 2021 6:31pm
Ill be able to report something in the next week or 2... ;)
@sw0wchyld Do you have an update on your delivery :)

Also can you share what country you are in ?

I am really curious to find out how the cadence sensing works all by itself with Silixcon, and whether they have been able to work some programming magic to reduce the limitation of cadence sensing like delayed start or sudden delivery of chosen assist level as soon as you pedal...
Last edited by scrambler on Feb 20 2022 1:03pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by scrambler » Mar 12 2021 8:40pm

I was looking at the battery specifications on the BoxxBike, and I was wondering if battery experts care to comment on why they may have chosen the 12S-12P (144cells) configuration, rather than a 16S-9P (also 144 cells) configuration.

The Sony VTC6 cells they use have specs that vary depending where you look but are along the following:
• Volt: 3.6 – 3.7
• Ah: 3.12 – 3
• Max continuous Amp: 15 – 20 – 30
• Peak: 30 – 35

So the 12S-12P means a 43 – 44 Volts battery with a 36 – 37 Ah for a total capacity of about 1,600Wh

Depending what actual cells they used it could provide a Max Continuous power around 7.8kW (@15A), 10.7kW (@20A) or 15.6kW (@30A)

I have usually heard that for more power, using higher Voltage was usually better, yet they are using a 12S ( 43V), rather than 16S (58V) configuration.

I am wondering what makes the 12S a better battery choice for the bike?

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by MadRhino » Mar 12 2021 9:49pm

scrambler wrote:
Mar 12 2021 8:40pm
...
I am wondering what makes the 12S a better battery choice for the bike?
The 12p are required to supply the peak power. Higher voltage would make faster RPM, but if it was at the cost of less parallel cells, they would be more likely to overheat.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by scrambler » Mar 12 2021 9:52pm

I am not sure I follow, both configuration can provide the same power, continuous and peak

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Re: Boxxbike Valkyrie : 12kw crank concentric mid drive with left hand motor drive

Post by MadRhino » Mar 12 2021 10:11pm

scrambler wrote:
Mar 12 2021 9:52pm
I am not sure I follow, both configuration can provide the same power, continuous and peak
Well, I meant current. The Amps would need to be lowered considerably with only 9p.
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