Solid tires?

Hey all,

I'm having a bit of a time trying to keep the wind from escaping from my tires. I'm running Swarble marathon mondials with ultra thick alpine thorn resistant tubes (about 3mm thick), I have a 28 mile per day commute to an industrial city and back in the North of England, the roads are littered with broken glass and Sharp bits of metal, this is just some of the bits that have caused punctures in the last 2 weeks!



The tire lever is just for scale.

I have destroyed 2 brand new swarble puncture resistant tires when 4 inch nails have gone in through the tread and out of the side wall catching on the frame scratching the paint and tearing the tires!

Even cars have a job not getting punctures so a bike has no chance. In the summer its not a huge issue but in the depths of winter changing a glass and dog poo encrusted tire by feel down a completely dark country lane in the pouring rain with cars flying past is something less than fun and will ultimately get me killed so I'm trying to find if anyone has experience of solid tires, once the mornings and evenings start getting lighter I can swop back to wind filled tires, I just need a solid on the back, I often run a studded ice tire on the front in winter.

Annoyingly the punctures are ALWAYS in the rear tire which makes getting the wheel off and back on REALLY difficult even in ideal conditions as I have to line up the brake pad slot and torque bracket.

Erm I meant to post this on the Electric bike section, anyone know how I can move it?

Done.

Also, solid tires have a reputation for handling very poorly..
Many people have suggested running a bike tire within a bike tire to give more total rubber to handle the smaller things.

If road debris is even a problem for cars, i don't know what to tell ya!

Many on the forum are living in areas where flats are very frequent. There are many solutions described, that had proven good for them. Most rely on doubling the tire with an old one inside, sometimes multi layers, puncture proof fabric, tire sealant...

I use slime tire sealant in big tires, 3.0 does fit my frames. Cush Core tire inserts (or diy foam inserts) are making sealant much more effective and let you complete the ride riding on a flat tire. Going tubeless does make it much quicker to fix a flat. That is the common practice in downhill racing. Cush Core inserts are not adding much weight to a wheel, improve ride quality and puncture resistance considerably.

Airless tires had not been popular so far, because they ride horribly at speed, and most are making rims fragile since hits are not spread around the wheel.

I got sick of flat tires and tubes. I have used solid airless tires and they worked for my needs, but I wasn't travelling more then 30 mph or doing harsh riding , so they worked for me. I have now moved onto a higher performance ebike that can do better performance and went with motorcross tires on motorcross styled rims and no tubes. Had to tape up the inside of the rims but this is the best scenario so far. I also mix together corn starch , antifreeze and ground up black pepper and put it in the tire then inflate. It works like slime to fill a puncture quickly.

several previous discussions

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=solid+tire*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=air*+tire*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

There's others that dont come up in those searches.


The worst problem with them is, as MadRhino notes, the potential for destroying your wheel when you hit potholes/bumps, as the impact is not spread, it all gets transferred directly to the rim at the impact point.

And that if your wheel is not correctly tensioned, just riding down the road will loosen the spokes and eventually begin breaking them (because the rim is being distorted continuously by that single-point pressure on it). Like this:




But given your challenges, there are no other flat-free solutions unless you can find some made from steel.

Even motorcycle tires would have trouble, if car tires do.

Layering multiple tires within each other, with deflection strips sandwiched between them and the tubes inside, would probably help some, but it would also make the tire heavy and decrease ride quality (though not as badly as any of the airless tires I've had).


The only other things you could do would be to make debris deflection and pickup structures in front of the tires. Something like a pivoting broom "cowcatcher" with magnets some distance behind it, but still far in front of the tires, so that the debris that isn't swept aside is picked up. Won't work on everything, but might reduce the problem significantly.

Thanks guys, I couldn't find anything when I searched, but there is some useful info. I seriously thought about mounting a bar magnet behind the front wheel so it would catch the ferrous stuff before it reaches the rear tire, I do ride past a stainless steel reprocessing plant so a good portion od the metal is stainless. There is a lot of broken glass but this generally doesn't get through the Swarble's.

Something like this moon buggy tire made from woven piano wire would be good but cornering might be a challenge!!



Interestingly the tires on the tractors in the steel works seem to use tires made from chain.

I remember a s a kid I git so sick of flats I stuffed a load of rags inside the tire witch kind of worked until it rained then they went a bit flat and solid.

I might give the solid tires a go, it seems that some people have had successes, with no exaggeration every second of my ride I spend comparing the feel of the tires as I ride over bumps so I know the rear tire is still fully inflated.

The only worry is my commute is horrible, I have to take in fast 30mph freeway sections, severely detonated back roads, cobbled streets, forest tracks and a swamp so it sounds like the solid tires will put a lot of stress on the rims, rolling resistance will also be an issue as the 17Ah battery / 500W motor combo drains the battery pretty good in the winter with a 900 foot climb, head wind and 10W of lights.

I suppose that you are riding the side of the road?
I mean, most of the debris are pushed aside by the trafic, and the fast lane is usually much cleaner.

I know it does mean building a fast bike, big motor and more batteries... but, riding the fast lane does make commuting much faster, and also proved safer for me. Of course my riding conditions are probably very different. Still, I hardly have a flat once a year, riding a lot of mileage on the streets and mountain trails.

I'd say a foam insert such a Cushcore is worth a look. Takes up at least half of the internal volume, adding bottom-out protection and run-flat properties. More of a MTB based device, but could help here too. You run tubeless with sealant in the outer air chamber, which could prove more reliable than tubes.

Yep. Cush Core inserts are wonderful for ride quality and flat protection. For me, the only downside is the hassle of tire replacement, because I am wearing them tires fast and the job of replacing one that is tubeless with insert is PITA. I now can make them foam inserts cheaper and easier than Cush Core, using high density plumbing pipe insulation. Cutting one 3 inch size in halves is making one length good for two 3 inch tires. They are making it possible to ride lower PSI and give a very good damping. They help the Slime to be effective on the entire tire, and they are magic to save pinch flats. I don’t like much having to use Presta tubeless valves on my Sraeder drilled rims, but I am working on that. Riding on a flat is not that good, but at least they are keeping the tire beaded on the rim so you have the choice: wearing the tire to scrap or to stop and fix a tubeless flat, which is pretty quick and easy.

OK solid tires once fitted can't be easily removed as well as the fact that I'm almost getting concussion with air filled tires pumped to 60psi so anything harder might end in brain damage.

I'm seriously considering the tubeless / cushcore / sealant option. The run flat properties will let me get to civilization so I can find both safety and illumination. I've always found the idea of tubeless tires on a bike a bit alien but the principal seems to be tried and tested. The tread on the tires seem to last about 7,000 miles, by this time they generally have many pieces of rubber glued inside to cover the many gashes and to stop the tubes ballooning out the the holes....I wonder if holes that size might rule out tubeless tires?

It would be good to ditch the super heavy inner tubes as they are causing severe handling issues (fork flex and giro effect)

yeah I'm stuck using the side of the road and its littered with busted car springs that are pretty good and puncturing tires!

RustyKipper said:

It would be good to ditch the super heavy inner tubes as they are causing severe handling issues (fork flex and giro effect)

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The solid tires would be even worse, since they'll be heavier.

Pretty much anything you can do to mitigate the kind of severe puncture problem you have is going to be heavy and cause that.

Tubeless (or other liquids) in the tire will also cause uneven rotation whenever starting up from a stop.

The colder it is the longer it will take the liquids to even out in the tire.

Also, the older those liquids get, the more they will stay congealed in one spot permanently (though from the sound of it, you'll end up having to take the tire off and clean it all out to patch it up every ride or few, so the congealing will probably never have a chance to occur).

Yep. A bicycle tire, even a tough 2 ply 3.0 with a thick DH tube, is still the light weight option for a reliable ebike.

A Cush Core insert does add little weight for it is not much heavier than a 3.0 DH tube. But yes, the Slime does slow down acceleration, if you fill a lot of it especially. 6 oz is not perceptible when riding. Still, It does spead with spinning in an empty tire, and the few turns it is taking to spread is a resistance. With a foam insert, Slime is much less likely to sink at the bottom of the tire when stopped. The slime captured between the tire and the insert also, does work better preventing a flat.

I find it is the lightest method of flat protection. I don’t use it on all of my bikes. I like it in both wheels of my dirt bike, and the rear of my heavy long distance commuter. My light weight street performance bike is kept as light as I can, even the tires I use on it are slick single ply that are short lasting.

Seen this: http://www.schwalbe.com/airless-system/index.php/home.html - it is designed to go tire side, whereas I thought cushcore was designed to go rim-side and so wouldn't be much help against punctures. Schwalbe system only in 700c I think to start and Netherlands/Germany only so far - also expensive, but if it works......

matmaxgeds said:

Seen this: http://www.schwalbe.com/airless-system/index.php/home.html - it is designed to go tire side, whereas I thought cushcore was designed to go rim-side and so wouldn't be much help against punctures. Schwalbe system only in 700c I think to start and Netherlands/Germany only so far - also expensive, but if it works......

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Yep. Foam inserts are normally rim side. Their purpose is to prevent pinch flats, and keeping the tire beaded at very low pressure. They are not airless. They are made for tubeless, and Cush Core especially are improving damping. They are not flat proof, but they let you ride home on a flat, and tubeless is making it quick to plug a flat.

Airless inserts are old, and been made by various manufacturers. They never been popular, because they are harsh ride and hard on wheels. Schwalbe just made another one, that doesn’t ride any better, as far as I know. Their only purpose is flat proofing. Good for slow riding. The faster you ride, the worst they are.

Airless tires had not been popular so far, because they ride horribly at speed, and most are making rims fragile since hits are not spread around the wheel.

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I like solid tubes. I would liken the experience to something similar to riding in the mud on the bicycle side of things but install them on trailers and they re-gain their usefulness. They don't seem to have nearly the same drag penalty on trailers, only slightly heavier.

As far as puncture proofing goes that "Stan's no-tube" plus the tubeless mod works okay-ish. It works flawlessly at first, nails, chunks of metal or whatever just pull right out and the goop seals in the hole. The goop wears out fairly fast though and you have to pull a snot-ball out of your tire every so often and re-apply. I would say it's the primo way to go if you are going on a trip on a planned week and you really don't want your tires to go flat that exact week.

For longer-term use, for when you don't want to have to re-apply goop all the time Mr. Tuffy Tire Liners works okay-ish. It blocks large sharp objects like nails but needle sized stuff still punches through. Presumably side-wall stuff would push through too, but I haven't run into that issue as a trike user.

I recently decided to go with a semi recumbent bike because frames that can accept 20 inch wheels ( thus, motorcycle tires ) are not both built in sizes that fit full size adults AND have suspension AND are not bendy/clunky ( aka nearly every folding bike on the market today )

Trust me, i've nearly seen them all and blew around a thousand dollars trying to find the ideal upright bike ( buying used ones and then reselling them at a loss essentially, since there are no dealers for these things within a 600 mile radius. )

This is my solution. It fits a 2.25" tire, maybe a 2.5" ( i'll have to measure ), thus you can get scooter/moto tires with at least 10mm of rubber on them on the frame without any compromises.. --v



..and then you can start doing the tricks suggested, like nested tires, tire strips, etc to make it as close to bulletproof as one can get without building an actual motorcycle.

Yes, you can get a custom 17" or 18" or 19" wheel hooked up to a mountain bike, but it's an expensive and exotic combination which will require a wheel builder with very specialized equipment, so good luck getting a spoke repair on the spot with wheels like that. And also the wheels come in at a super heavy weight with moto rims and 8-10 gauge spokes.

Just gimme a bike that can handle a small wheel with a crapton of rubber ( 2.75" x 16 pirelli pictured on a magic pie composite wheel )

I'm running solid tires on the only e bike I'm using at the moment. Man, they suck soooooo bad. But out on the trail near my house, its just crazy bad with thorns. Every night the rabbits eat mesquite bark, and sprinkle the thorns on the trail.


I can only stand those tires because I trail ride so seldom now. Im mostly pedaling a vintage road bike, so I don't ride the trail clean anymore. Those awful tires at least can stand the thorns I hit when I do ride the trail.


I never found a solution for the sharp shit in the road, except for riding so slow you see it and swerve. Back when I commuted, I'd get so pissed when I slashed a new tire in two days. most flats though, I handled with lots of slime, and a spare tube on the bike for the bad one that a re pump could not fix.

I did identify a few spots that were chronic with the nails and shit. I'd actually go sweep a few corners, where it was the worst. Certain frockers driveway, sweep for 50 feet from his house or business.

Probably has horrible as all airless tires in the last 130 years.

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/20/metl-metal-bicycle-tires-cars-trucks/

RustyKipper said:

I'm having a bit of a time trying to keep the wind from escaping from my tires.

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Have you ever used tire inserts like mr. Tuffy? If a nail punctures the tire with these inserts it deflects the nail toward the side so it can’t puncture the tube.

Some liners have actually caused flats.

markz said:

Some liners have actually caused flats.

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They do it all the time. I've fixed more flats that were caused by tire liners than I've sold tire liners.

Eastwood said:

Have you ever used tire inserts like mr. Tuffy? If a nail punctures the tire with these inserts it deflects the nail toward the side so it can’t puncture the tube.

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They don't always work. Especially wiht roofing nails or any other debris that has a stable wide base and a pointy top--it is held straight up by the weight on it and can't be deflected.

:wink:

markz said:

Some liners have actually caused flats.

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I wonder how that would happen?

Chalo said:

markz said:

Some liners have actually caused flats.

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They do it all the time. I've fixed more flats that were caused by tire liners than I've sold tire liners.

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Interesting, do you have a bike shop?

amberwolf said:

Eastwood said:

Have you ever used tire inserts like mr. Tuffy? If a nail punctures the tire with these inserts it deflects the nail toward the side so it can’t puncture the tube.

Click to expand...

They don't always work. Especially wiht roofing nails or any other debris that has a stable wide base and a pointy top--it is held straight up by the weight on it and can't be deflected.

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Well in my situation I can only speak for the brand Mr. tuffy. I’ve been using these liners for a while in all 3 of my bikes and have well over 1000 miles combined with no flats. Most of my riding is urban stuff where there’s glass and nails. Also on mountain bike trails were thorns are an issue.

So I took it a step further just now laid a scrap piece of Mr. Tuffy on my wooden workbench and tried to hammer a roofing nail through it and it will not go through the back side. The nail will penetrate the tire insert on the very outer layer but it gets stopped before it breaks through the back wall.

What you guys are talking about I’ve heard this several times before and I’m starting to think maybe it comes down to the brand of liner.

https://youtube.com/shorts/6n6hnjph2m4