Casual Commuter Recommendations

epearce2

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Apr 19, 2019
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Just got a longer commute and looking to build an ebike to keep from showing up sweaty at work. Here's my general info, any recommendations would be great.

Desired max speed on level ground:20 mph
Desired max range: 10 miles at 20mph
Preferred bike wheel size:26" or 700cc (Haven't found the bike yet)
Brake type: Haven't found a bike yet, but I was thinking disc brakes.
Rider weight: 175 lbs.
Terrain: Mostly flat, some short hills. Nothing crazy.
Budget: $500 (not including bike)

Also, I'd love to be able to tie bike lights into the battery.

I was thinking rear hub with bottle battery, but open to advice. Again, thanks for any help you can send my way.
 
$500 for an ebike, with battery will be a no go!

You wish to have pedal assist I assume right, or do you want throttle only?
Will the commute along the 20 miles be lots of stop and go or steady speed? What about the "short hills" % slope?
Where are you located, which city, state, country?
What kind of bicycle storage do you have at work?

You are interested in a rear hub, so its either going to be a geared motor, or direct drive. How stealth do you want to be, because geared motors make sounds and people hear it coming up from behind them when walking. Direct Drive has no sound, when matched to a sine wave controller.

Direct Drive: Leafbike 1500W is a popular kit, comes with a neat display. Very reasonable and high efficiency.
https://www.leafbike.com/

Geared: MAC 1000W from EM3EV.com is another great little motor.
These guys have a solid A+ reputation, you can also buy your battery from them and know its built right!
https://em3ev.com/


epearce2 said:
Desired max speed on level ground:20 mph
Desired max range: 10 miles at 20mph
Preferred bike wheel size:26" or 700cc (Haven't found the bike yet)
Terrain: Mostly flat, some short hills. Nothing crazy.
 
Yes on that budget, the battery might be a big problem. But commuting on an e bike 20 miles per charge is not a hard one to do. It just won't happen with cheap lead batteries that are good for about 10 miles new, and soon, only 6.

Just about any e bike hub motor kit will get you your needs. Even the very small, low wattage 36v ones. But you will be happier with a slightly larger kit, a "750w 36v" kit with a 500w rated motor. Why? The smallest motors will do great in fine weather, but they bog down to pretty slow travel when the wind gets hard. And if you commute to work a lot, at some point it will be into a 30 mph wind all the way home. A 1000w kit will likely be a 48v kit, increasing the cost of your battery if you ride it full speed, about 25-30 mph. 36v will get you a solid 20-22 mph.

36v 20 ah battery will be the perfect size, allowing you 20 miles range, even on that bad weather day. Most days you will use 75% of its range. But you need that extra bit sometimes, particularly on a cold windy winter day.


If you can ride to work 10 miles, charge, ride home, then a 10 ah battery will work. Even a lead battery could work, if you ride less than 15 mph. Lead won't go 20 mph for 10 miles. Your budget should be more like a thou. That's hard, but a good lithium battery lasts at least 2 years, sometimes 4.

For lights, I found the best light for me was a very good led flashlight, mounted on the bars with a rubber mount I found on e bay. A cheap 36v bike light was just dim. There are better ones, but I am just saying a 20 buck flashlight with 800 lumens, beat the hell out of an 8 buck light with maybe, 50 lumens. My flashlight runs a long time on two AA's, which can be the rechargeable ones.
 
With a $ 500 Budget you will not get the parts you need .

Increase your Budget , Pull out the Credit Card and prepare for $ 800-
$ 1200

You will be happier in the long run when you spend more like $ 1,000 or more on the Electronic Parts and Battery.

A New Credit Card with low interest rates or no interest rate for the first year.
( I once thought like you, now I easily see that the less I drive a car the more I have to spend on the electric bike )
 
Regarding budget, I was looking at a 48v 10ah battery (https://ebay.to/2VWcE4Z) $229 and a 48v 1000w rear hub kit (https://ebay.to/2Dp5Oh8) $165. Not trying to argue, honestly asking...am I missing something? Are these eBay parts total garbage?

Thanks for all the advice so far.
 
On that budget you will need to take a more "roll-your-own" approach.

This is a recipi that worked for me:
I put it on a trike. I weigh 200 lbs.
I made two of them:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98760&p=1446193#p1446193
22MPH top speed. Average 20MPH for entire charge.
Range at full speed except slowing for turns&stops is 13 to 15 miles.
Motor: 500w geared brushless Q128C = $172 shipped.
Controller: 1000w, 38A, 36/48V = $27 shipped (I got mine for $14!).
Wheel components (I laced my own wheel): Spokes $27 (shipped), Rim $29 (shipped). Total $56.
8AH Battery (I made my own): ~$80....using 10x8A LIPO used bus cells on eBay...includes cheap BMS also.
PS: These batteries are real deal....seller top notch also. I built two pacs (other 3S3P for kayak). Two cells delivered to me had some slight puffing and seller shipped two others no questions asked. One-year now both packs going strong.
Misc (wire, throttle, bike-computer) = $30
Charger = $15
All-in price for e-power conversion = $353.
If you buy a decent battery ($350...usually comes with charger...take other charger and leave at work) vs make your own: Price goes up to around $600.
 
I do not know about the motor kit.

From everything I have read , those cheep e-bay and aliexpress batteries are the very cheep and low quality cells , so they would not be useful for long term and/to get the rated life out of them , they would work best for 250 watt motors where the total amp draw from the battery pack through the controller would be 19 or around 15 amps.

With a 750/1000 watt motor and higher amperage controller a cheep pack like that would die and/or loose much of its capacity quickly. So it would then not be cheep at all.

The places that get good reviews for battery packs are

Grin Technologies

Em3ev.com

Luna

California E-bike ( Doug Snyder )

others here can list other good sources.
 
I respectfully disagree with the credit card advice. If you can't afford it, save up for a while longer until you can. Credit card debt is a trap you will regret. If you are healthy, 10 miles round trip is easily doable without an electric motor until you can afford one. Ride a little slower in the morning to avoid sweating, shower before you leave, and then rinse off your face in the bathroom when you get to work. If you are in a hot and humid climate, you are probably still going to sweat anyway. Maybe there is a shower at your work that you can use to change clothes and clean up.
 
The kit you linked to maybe fine, but you are gambling on the battery.

Dogman dan bought a mystery battery from an unkown supplier and it was not good at all!

Reputable places to look for a battery are
http://www.ebikes.ca
https://unitpackpower.aliexpress.com/store/1178407
http://www.osnpower.com/pddetaildate/products.html

Among other suppliers that have slipped my mind.
 
The 48v 1000w kit will quickly kill a cheap 10 ah battery. For that power kit, you would need a 20 ah battery, and in my experience, it would still struggle some with it. That kit has a 30 amps controller, too big for that type 10 ah battery made with the cheapest, shoddiest type cells they can get in china.

36v 750w kit will have a 20 amps controller, and it will run well enough on a cheap 10 ah pack. And,,, in 36v, you might be able to afford a 15 ah. Then you would have a solid 15 mile round trip range.


You are on a budget, and said you wanted 20 mph. DO NOT buy a 30 mph kit that requires a more expensive battery. Later on, next summer or so, you can cheaply convert the kit to 48v, when you can afford to buy a 48v battery that has the best, highest quality cells in it.


36v rear motor kit, same vendor.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26-Rear-Wheel-36V-500W-Electric-Bicycle-Ebike-Conversion-Kit-Hub-Motor/321679232957?epid=1580882108&hash=item4ae5938fbd:g:~pwAAOSwHb9bwDZM
 
epearce2 said:
Desired max speed on level ground:20 mph
Desired max range: 10 miles at 20mph
Preferred bike wheel size:26" or 700cc (Haven't found the bike yet)
Brake type: Haven't found a bike yet, but I was thinking disc brakes.
Rider weight: 175 lbs.
Terrain: Mostly flat, some short hills. Nothing crazy.
Budget: $500 (not including bike)

If you could increase your budget to $600, you have a better chance at meeting your specs. I bought the 2nd cheapest (because it shipped faster than the cheapest) 48V1000W rear hub kit on ebay for $143.90 shipped; and a 52 volt 20 ah UPP triangle battery pack (cheap Chinese cells) for $395.99 shipped. That would likely meet your specs easily ($540), but I also chucked the kit controller and got an 18 FET sine wave controller and display ($110), mainly because I wanted to run silent and display. I'm about your weight, and the bike goes 23mph on flat ground.

So, you can get a basic e-bike for $550-$650 if you shop carefully, but then you'll probably get accessories like light and mirrors which are pretty cheap if you don't mind waiting for shipping. Prices for everything go up if you're not patient to wait for shipping. I got this light that works on battery voltage for $8.53 shipped and it runs off the main battery voltage. It's like this example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Waterproof-Motorcycle-E-bike-20W-LED-Modified-Headlight-Lamp-12V-80V-/283041171533?hash=item41e691884d
 
E-HP said:
So, you can get a basic e-bike for $550-$650 if you shop carefully

Not including the price of the bicycle itself, though, right?

dogman dan said:
The 48v 1000w kit will quickly kill a cheap 10 ah battery.

To be precise, this is about max current, not capacity, am I right? The advertised spec on that ebay battery were 15A sustained, 30A max; if we assume that's close to the truth, it will be OK up to 48 x 15 = 720W.

And,,, in 36v, you might be able to afford a 15 ah. Then you would have a solid 15 mile round trip range.

What do you figure for Wh/mile? I forget what the last story I heard was on average power consumption ... suppose 18 Wh/mi? The theoretical range at that rate seeems to me would be 36 x 15 / 18 = 30. To be sure, it's crazy to buy a battery and count on actually getting the rated Amp-hours out of it, but it seems like 50% is a little more margin that necessary.

pullin-gs said:
22MPH top speed. Average 20MPH for entire charge.

Note that for a bicycle, that's crazy fast, and it's expensive. If you can live with 16mph, you'll get twice the range compared to 20mph. 16mph average trip speed is significantly faster than most bicyclists. (For that range advantage calculation, I am assuming 100W pedal input. If you don't pedal, you have to cut back to under 12mph to double your range.)
 
epearce2 said:
Regarding budget, I was looking at a 48v 10ah battery (https://ebay.to/2VWcE4Z) $229 and a 48v 1000w rear hub kit (https://ebay.to/2Dp5Oh8) $165. Not trying to argue, honestly asking...am I missing something? Are these eBay parts total garbage?

Thanks for all the advice so far.
The devil can be in the details. How are you going to monitor charging? And speaking of charging, that charger is fairly low power and hence a bit slow to recharge the battery. Then there are things that you'll likely want to upgrade once you are commuting regularly. Things like a rack, fenders, lights, chainring and freewheel upgrades. Or maybe you won't need any of those things. Just be aware that if you are going to ride 20 miles a day on a bike, you are probably going to want to get it the way you like it. A good part of regular e-biking is making sure that the ride is enjoyable. So $500 is cutting it close. I ended up spending about $1000 and I got a super deal on batteries - but I also built a somewhat faster bike with more range. and I could have been more economical. I think $750 is a more realistic number for a low dollar conversion that you'll be happy with. You might be able to do it for less, but it won't be easy.
 
The cheapest cells in china's specifications are a lie. Not a lie for those cells that came out perfect. But they got to be the cheapest cells in china by not meeting the test for perfect. Essentially, they are grade b, unable to be branded. Or worse, just made by a pirate type factory. They crank out cells, then go get a spec sheet off the internet. No quality control to speak of. They have high internal resistance, meaning when they discharge, they become a heater, and the faster you discharge a shitty cell, the hotter it gets.

They will get damaged by 30 amps every stop sign, in a 10 ah size battery. Oh sure, it will work for a few months, but not for 3 years.

Lets backtrack to what you said you need. and what it takes to get it. 20 mph takes about 400 watts if you pedal hard, and its not windy. If you pedal less, and its windy, it can take 800w. Typically, you will find its running 5 or 600 watts on average to go 20 mph. Including more like 15 mph up the hills, which takes full throttle.


with a 36v kit and 20 amps controller, you have potentially 800w. Its enough for that hill, and for that windy day. A 10 ah lithium battery, even the cheap ass one, can usually handle 20 amps, so it handles your starts, and your hills ok. Cruising 20 mph will take about 12-15 amps, so the cheap ass battery gets to take it even easier most of the time, while you pull 500w to ride 20 mph, pedaling so you can feel it. Not till you get out of breath, but pedaling enough to go about 2 mph faster than if you did not pedal.


When I commuted, I used about 35 wh/mi using 48v kits. 25 wh/mi using 36v kits. A good rule of thumb was to call a 36v battery at 20 mph, one mile per ah. You can go farther,,, by riding very slow. But on that windy day, it takes more. On that cold day, it takes more. On that cold and windy day, you get screwed. So to make it to work every day on time, you need that little bit of reserve. That makes 1 ah per mile a good rule of thumb for 36v.


But if you get that 48v kit,, you will NOT ride 20 mph. You wont.. you'll ride 25 mph or faster. It will shorten your range, and force you to buy a 20 ah battery at least.. So till you can spend a thou.. DONT buy a 48v kit.


With 36v, you can afford a 15 ah battery, which will go farther, and last longer, than a stressed out 48v 10 ah.


Right now, economy is what you want. Bear in mind, next year when you have more money, its very very easy to make upgrades to 48v, 60v, even 72v with the exact same direct drive motor you get in the 36v kit.


But if you have a thou to spend, then get a 48v kit, and a somewhat better 48v 20 ah. I bought the very cheapest 48v 20 ah, and it burned my house down. So I definitely would advise getting something better than the cheapest cell in china. On my house, the cheapest cell in china cost my insurance company $250,000.
 
dogman dan said:
But if you get that 48v kit,, you will NOT ride 20 mph. You wont.. you'll ride 25 mph or faster. It will shorten your range, and force you to buy a 20 ah battery at least.. So till you can spend a thou.. DONT buy a 48v kit.

Trying to figure out why my experience is so different, and my guess is that it's where we ride. Last time I checked my trip average speed, 12 mph. Barely over 9 Wh/mi, for 24 miles. Well, a large part of those 24 miles were on bike path situations where only a real shithead would crank it to 20mph, if you'll excuse the expression, and honestly the rest of the time I'm not in much of a hurry anyway. I have ridden in the 25-30 mph range, up hill - when I'm out in traffic. So that could be at least one of the factors. I'm on a nominal 1500W setup, with a 30A controller and a battery that claims to support 50A continuous discharge/ 100A max.
 
wturber said:
How are you going to monitor charging?

You're thinking of the over-charging problem? - chargers typically shut off on their own at a full charge voltage, but the battery life will be a lot longer if you can stop at 80%? Just to clarify, as that may not be common knowledge among people shopping for electric conversions. (Or may not be true at all, for all I know, and as far as I know isn't true for LiFePO4 batteries like mine, and then there are the burst-into-flame-while-charging that depend on chemistry as well.) I guess a charger with a configurable shut off voltage would take a pretty big bite out of the budget.
 
wturber said:
The devil can be in the details.

Yup, and good to point out that some things that might be considered bicycle cost are actually related to ebiking, so that drives the budget up, after you've converted the bike when it's your first. After a day, I knew I needed a decent mirror, and after a couple of days, I knew I needed higher gearing, and ended up trying a couple of chaingrings to get it right. A few weeks later, and I decided that I needed better stopping power and eventually converted to discs. Another big one for me is the time, research and dollars spent on flat paranoia, or choosing the right tire setup. Depending on whether the OP considers these things on the ebike or bicycle side of the ledger, he may or may not be able to reach his goal. Choosing the right bike as a starting point could help reduce some costs later on, and we don't know what that budget looks like.
 
dogman dan said:
But if you get that 48v kit,, you will NOT ride 20 mph. You wont.. you'll ride 25 mph or faster. It will shorten your range, and force you to buy a 20 ah battery at least.. So till you can spend a thou.. DONT buy a 48v kit.

I don't think everyone wants to go faster or ride at their top speed. Really, if a person has a need for speed, they won't choose an ebike. But, there's definitely a thrill with sustained riding at faster than normal bicycling speeds, from the danger aspect. I feel more vulnerable riding an ebike at 25 mph than a motorcycle at 150 mph. But if something goes wrong, I'd rather be going 25 mph when it does. I'm perfectly happy loping along at 17 mph and obtaining the benefits of longer ranges.
 
donn said:
wturber said:
How are you going to monitor charging?

You're thinking of the over-charging problem?

I just don't trust things that don't give me numbers. I also may want to partially charge. I sleep better at night seeing the amp hours in and out behaving predictably. It isn't strictly necessary, but I expect such monitoring to give me better advanced warning about potential problems. Sorta like gauges instead of idiot lights on a car.
 
donn said:
dogman dan said:
But if you get that 48v kit,, you will NOT ride 20 mph. You wont.. you'll ride 25 mph or faster. It will shorten your range, and force you to buy a 20 ah battery at least.. So till you can spend a thou.. DONT buy a 48v kit.

Trying to figure out why my experience is so different, and my guess is that it's where we ride. Last time I checked my trip average speed, 12 mph.

Trip average speed can be misleading. My typical bike speeds are 21-28 mph, but my trip average speed doesn't quite hit 20 mph given stop signs, lights, hills, etc. That said, if my trip average speeds were 12 mph, I'd probably not bother with the motor. :^)
 
The jury is still out on those batteries. I have installed three of them since the first of the year. I was quite apprehensive about the first one but the customer insisted and bought the battery himself. The fit and finish was good and the battery performed perfectly. So well that the customer immediately bought another one for a spare.
He is off in New Mexico somewhere for the summer and from what I have heard it is still working well for him. Soon after that two of my best friends decided they wanted new batteries for bikes I had put together for them. I cautiously told them about my experience with the other customer and they decided that for the low price they would try them out for themselves. So I bought two more and installed them on my friends bikes. It has only been a couple of months but so far everyone is happy. I went to great lengths to impress on all three of them how dangerous these batteries might be. I told them dogman dan's story and made them promise to always monitor their charging and to never charge in or near their house or RV.
I am in no way endorsing these batteries, just describing my personal experience with them.
 
Well, it did take me about three years of commuting, 10,000 miles or so to slow down. Much of that was my route, half of it on the shoulder of a 45 mph freeway frontage. another quarter of it on a bike path, where I ran 20 mph, slowing to pass pedestrians at 10 mph. Then the last bit on very busy, rush hour city streets near a large college campus. 30 mph or die.

Where you ride, it makes a difference. But if you have 25 mph, and are on a 25 mph or faster road with few stop signs, you succumb to throttle creep. If you have a two hour e bike commute like I did, you tend to want to run it in an hour and a half instead.

Commuters have a different ride, from a pleasure rider. I'm retired now, and rarely ride faster than 20 mph now. Often 15 mph, on the same damn frontage road. Now its a ride for the fun, and the exercise. Commuting, it was get there cheap as possible, in a reasonable time.

If he buys that cheap battery, and rides 15 mph, he won't kill it. I just think he'll ride 25 mph, cuz he can, and he left the house 10 min late. Then the battery will get hot, and last less long. I never said it would burn his house down, but it WILL wear out faster. Next winter, it will be weak, just when he needs it strong. I'm assuming a year round commute. If he had more money, he'd likely be on a motorcycle forum.
 
^Thats can be an issue, Throttling because you can, because if you minimally spec your battery the rider will end up running outta juice. I've been dealing with frequent charging because I am too cheap to upgrade my Makita's but I have dealt with it and it still gets me to where I want to go. Babying the throttle like a pubic hair will extend the range by quite a bit on the motor simulator, but with a cheap, pathetic battery, used, the internal resistance is quite high, lost about 3/4 capacity probably to due with using lots of discharge for the various configurations, also very low lvc like currently because of 15S pack on 13S lvc, but I got 25R's ready to go. Somethings you just dont want to cheap out on, battery is one of them along with the charger. Oh forgot about pedaling, I havent pedaled in a year!
 
dogman dan said:
Where you ride, it makes a difference. But if you have 25 mph, and are on a 25 mph or faster road with few stop signs, you succumb to throttle creep. If you have a two hour e bike commute like I did, you tend to want to run it in an hour and a half instead.

Maybe a slower wind 48v kit would help? Mine tops off at 20-21 mph at 48 volts and 23 mph at 52 volts. It's a good match for my cheap triangle pack, and since the OP only wants to travel at 20 mph...
 
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