E-Bike Registration

Hello,

I am looking for some practical advice on ebike registration. In particular in the state of Arizona. I have searched around a lot, but have not found any practical advice. My bike has a 2200w motor and can run a max of 42 mph downhill on a good day (70kmh).

I was assuming that it needs to be registeredas a Motor Driven Cycle, which is good until 5hp.

I went to the DMV today to get it registered, but after an hour of discussions I gave up: in their opinion I should just ride my bike and not worry about registration. They printed out an old legal document, which showed that anything under 50cc does not need registration, they signed it and gave it to me to keep with me, if I am worried about the power/speed of the bike.

To my knowledge there is a new law in AZ since mid 2018, which requires registration for anything more than 750W and > 28mph. The DMV person claimed he had online access to the latest laws and hence I am fine. He was a really nice person, but was struggling with cc and watts. According to him it should be cubic inches and horsepower.

I am thinking of going for 5hp and getting a motorcycle registration. That seems to be the easiest way to be legally correct.

Being from Germany and having recently moved to the US and this is really strange for me. I would greatly appreciate advice on this.

You live in the wild west now . Just ride it and leave the rattle snakes alone. Everyone has a gun in the glove box so be polite.

The process starts with a document called a Title which has a vehicle identification number ( VIN ). A dealer provides a Title at the time of sale. You will need the VIN to get the required registration and insurance. The VIN is also stamped somewhere on the vehicle itself. You will also be required to have a motorcycle drivers license . https://www.azdot.gov/motor-vehicles/VehicleServices/Title

In the USA we don't follow rules like you guys and police in MOST PLACES, very likely including Az. do not care about cyclists. Which is what they will see you on your 2000w ebike as. If you slow down and pedal when you see a cop, and above all, ride so as not to piss people off, you will not have trouble with the police.

Registering a ebike defeats the purpose. If you want to ride fast on a registered vehicle buy a scooter or motorcycle. They are readily available for less than a decent ebike build. Not to mention much better suited to riding fast, safer, more comfortable, better mirrors, more storage...

You are picking the wrong tool for the job, or trying to do something unnecessary. Figure out which, and simplify your situation.

Oh, and I hope you like guns!

The previous post is correct. Remember to always pedal when in sight of anyone else, and to not act like an idiot, and you will likely be left alone. The documents you got are actually much more than most of us get, so be grateful. If you want to ride fast in public, get a motorcycle or scooter.

Next time you see a cop, beg him to give you a ticket.

Clown pedal like hell when you see a cop. When you get to court, if that ever happens, show that paper.

But my bet is that if you are not a jerk, the cops leave you alone. Ride like its a motorcycle, and It may help in court if your license has the motorcycle endorsement. In my own town, all motors of every kind are banned from the multi use paths. But I have had chats with the bike cops on the MUP, discussing electric bikes, sitting on my electric bike. its a 12 year old on scooters ban.


Ride 40 mph up the sidewalk, on the wrong side, blow all stop signs, etc, and you will get the police notice.


I bet there was an attempt to pass a new law. it may have passed, but not take effect yet. Or it died during the session. You need to do your own search of the official AZ motor vehicle statute. You may find something the DMV guy could not find. Look hard, no telling what category the statute may be in. Look for sure, in all definitions. The law may use a word, that depends on its official definition.


Its possible the city of Phoenix just passed a law, that applies only in city limits. Cops will use that law only to shut down drunks, and jerks. Lots of laws like that, we all break them constantly. But they get enforced on guys with attitude.

Many thanks for the replies. Very helpful!

I use the bike as a daily commute (21 miles / 34km each way) and would like to get some exercise doing so (getting too fat). I would like the commute to be around 30 minutes (hence getting close to MC speed and a MC might be better suited). Most of the way is through the desert (more rattlesnakes than people), hence I cannot piss anyone off, even if I try (maybe the snakes). Going slow gets very boring here. I do pedal all the time.



A not so uncommnon sight over here.

Thank you for the replies.

I design 100% of my bikes to have a drivetrain capable of pedaling with the top speed of the bike. Even if it means having a bizarrely large chainring.



Because of the top speed limit of city streets in my area, all my bikes are designed to do up to 45mph. I have always pedaled up to 40mph. Have never had legal problems doing so. Despite the fast speed, and occasional rides in the car lane when there's no bike lane.. i have never been harassed by police. I pedal about 90% of the time, only stopping when i need to do 45mph, because it is more efficient to go into a full tuck and my knees would bash against my chest in that aerodynamic configuration

It might have to do with the fact that i have lived in mountain states during most of my ebike riding.. where we generally don't have predatory policing.. unlike in places like California.

neptronix said:

I design 100% of my bikes to have a drivetrain capable of pedaling with the top speed of the bike. Even if it means having a bizarrely large chainring.

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What chainrings do you use? That is my major concern going from 26" --> 21" --> 19" MC. I have ordered a 85T:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TRUYOU-130-BCD-68T-70T-75T-80T-85T-90T-120T-bike-parts-Aluminum-Alloy-CNC-Road/32938837526.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.1.365d132ceyE3Oa&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_10_10065_10130_10068_10890_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_453_10084_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_50,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=bc799bca-931d-4c2e-9074-61e55c8037ca-0&algo_pvid=bc799bca-931d-4c2e-9074-61e55c8037ca

I am comfortable with 52T at around 50 kmh / 31 mph. Hence I think 85T should get me to 80 kmh / 50 mph, once the new batteries are installed.

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

I have ordered a 85T:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TRUYOU-130-BCD-68T-70T-75T-80T-85T-90T-120T-bike-parts-Aluminum-Alloy-CNC-Road/32938837526.html

Click to expand...

That won't fit on most bikes. It will hit the chainstay.

Also, pedaling at speeds over about 35mph costs more power as drag than you are likely to make with the pedals. The faster you go, the more certain it is.

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

I went to the DMV today to get it registered, but after an hour of discussions I gave up: in their opinion I should just ride my bike and not worry about registration. They printed out an old legal document, which showed that anything under 50cc does not need registration, they signed it and gave it to me to keep with me, if I am worried about the power/speed of the bike.

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If you would be willing to scan that document in and attach it to your post (probably have to make it a grayscale or two-color PNG file to minimzie the file size), I'd be very interested in seeing that (and carrying a copy with me as I ride in Phoenix).

FWIW, my SB Cruiser trike is almost twice as powerful as yours, but I only ride it under 20MPH (it was built under the previous law, which had no power limit but required the rider to operate it at less than 20MPH). I have not had any legal issues with it (or the previous CrazyBike2, which also had that kind of power), although I have on occasion had an officer stop me because they were interested in them personally. Since the power level itself is honestly irrelevant, and how it's used is what's meaningful, I obey the rules of the road, and stay under 20MPH, and try to stay out of the way of anything faster than that that's on the road with me wherever possible.


Higher speeds than typically seen on the average bicycle may attract unwanted attention, even if you're pedalling, but it depends on where you are riding; here in the valley some cities are more likely to be strict about things than others, and some specific areas may have stricter enforcement than others, within any particular city--usually wherever there are more officers riding around on patrol, expecting trouble.

If you ride like you belong there doing what you're doing, and you do so safely, at reasonable speeds for the conditions, and are following the rules of the road, not endangering yourself or anyone around you, you probably won't have any problems.

If you upset people around you or do things that someone else might consider unsafe for the conditions, etc., then eventually you're likely to run into issues with someone, if not officers.


But...if you want motorcycle speeds, I would recommend moving up to an actual motorcycle...not because of the law, but because it's safer equipment-wise. By the time you build up a bicycle to be structurally sound for the speeds, along with wheels tires and brakes that will be safe for them, you already have a small motorcycle anyway. It's cheaper and easier to just start with a MC.

dogman dan said:

I bet there was an attempt to pass a new law. it may have passed, but not take effect yet. Or it died during the session.

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See this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87657

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

To my knowledge there is a new law in AZ since mid 2018, which requires registration for anything more than 750W and > 28mph.

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To be specific, it defines an electric bicycle as having those limits.

But you can't register any form of a bicycle as any kind of vehicle; it is specifically excluded (also in title 28, AFAICR) from being a vehicle (whether or not it has a motor on it). Somewhere in my posts on ES (probably in the above thread) is a link and a quote of the relevant section.

To register a vehicle, it has to *be* a vehicle, so a moped, motorcycle, car, truck, etc.

I will scan the document in the next days for you. Your explanation is very helpful. Buying a MC might be cheaper, but not so much fun! I enjoy building bikes ad a hobby.

I typically ride on the beeline between Fountain Hills and Mesa. I see lots of cops, but no issues so far. I have done about 2000 miles by now.

We have reduced from 9 bikes to 6 for a family of 4, so there is again room for more

Chalo, I am painfully aware of the chainstay issue. I have several 60T chainrings as well, which don't fit. I have ordered an extra long axle for my BB. It will be 127mm instead of 110mm. That should help some. If that is not enough, then I plan to add some spacers. 3-5mm should be ok. I think that should be enough clearance for upto 100T, but you just know when you install.

Note that by moving the chainring outwards, you may harm chainline enough that the inner sprockets won't be usable.

In that case, you can move the most valuable rear sprockets into the outer positions and lock the inner ones out with the derailleur limit screws.

Hello Chalo,

yes I am aware of that as well. In fact currently the optimum chainline is on a middle sprocket, while I just use the smallest 95% of the time. So a change in chainline is very welcome. You do think of a lot of details! I am impressed.

BTW. since I was a competitive cyclist many years ago, I still do 400W when I need to (not for longer stretches anymore). Which means that I seem to get a benefit upto 42mph (and yes, I am used to bashing my chest with my knees as well, when I keep my chin almost on the handlebar). Not sure beyond 42mph yet. I just installed a simple fairing and will report speed / battery gains.

Well, once again, if you want motorcycle performance to ride on the street, then you should get a motorcycle. Simply because its cheaper. Cheap enough to afford both, if not now, later.


But you have the e bike already. I would just tone it down to closer to legal speeds once in town. The desert ride let er rip. Then in town, use some kind of watt limiter to get you to 1000w, and more like a 30 mph top speed.

Whatever your commute takes, you just have to live with it. But to get it to 30 min, you will have to rip it in the desert part. Big a chain ring as can fit, then pick a speed you can still pedal. 56t was the biggest I had, and it only fit a few of my bikes. 52 14 will be plenty for pedaling 30 mph in town. I really do advise you slow down once in town. Dumb shits see bike, think they have plenty of time to turn in front of you. But recently, drivers don't even look out the window at all. Ride so you can avoid them. That's 25 or less on bikes, IMO. limitations of tires and brakes basically. Improve brakes, yer still on shitty bike tires. That's why I do my hauling ass on a motorcycle now.

If you do think a motorcycle might be a good idea later, the best place to get a gas scooter is in Phoenix or Tucson. My burgman cost 1800 used, but low miles. Insured, it costs me 12 cents a mile. That's half my cheapest ever 20 mph commuter e bike. Fast e bikes have cost me more to run than cars do. Wear out expensive batteries fast going 40 mph. The scoot just keeps on trucking, for pennies a mile. Motorcycle no fun? Not the way I ride! Hit that road up to lake Rosevelt, the 87, for some fun!

A little bit farther away but still close, Morenci to Alpine is the BEST motorcycle road in the world. I'm going to be hitting it again in june.

I live in Fountain Hills as well - though I commute to Scottsdale, not Mesa. Was doing 32 miles roundtrip. Now 16 miles roundtrip.

I think the DMV is giving you outdated info. The law did change recently as you said. I think they are also confused about other related issues. This is such a marginal thing that they aren't properly prepared to deal with it.

I feel confident that nobody will bother you up to 30 mph on the Beeline (or anywhere else really) - especially if you are pedaling That's close enough to the legal 28 mph.

You are probably OK at 35 mph on the Beeline as well given car speeds of 65-70 there. I think it is unlikely you'll be bothered. But 40? That's pushing it. You really start to look like a motorcycle at speeds like that.

Keep in mind that if you do get stopped the fines could mount into thousands of dollars. Unregistered, no insurance, etc. It probably won't be just a speeding ticket. Also, on the Beeline it could be reservation police. Their attitudes might be atypical.

My bet is that actually getting it registered as a vehicle will be really hard and possibly just impossible without major mods and hassle.

https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00819.htm

P.S. What you have is a "motor driven cycle".
[Note: Went back and re-read your original post and see that you already figured this out.)
ARS 28-101
39. "Motor driven cycle" means a motorcycle, including every motor scooter, with a motor that produces not more than five horsepower but does not include an electric bicycle.

‘’ ... but does not include an electric bicycle ‘’

Same here. Ebikes, no matter how powerful and fast, are not part of motorcycle categories. The police don’t care about our power and speed, as long as we are not riding like criminals. Let’s hope this can last another decade.

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

Many thanks for the replies. Very helpful!

I use the bike as a daily commute (21 miles / 34km each way) and would like to get some exercise doing so (getting too fat). I would like the commute to be around 30 minutes (hence getting close to MC speed and a MC might be better suited). Most of the way is through the desert (more rattlesnakes than people), hence I cannot piss anyone off, even if I try (maybe the snakes). Going slow gets very boring here. I do pedal all the time.

Click to expand...

I think you should be thinking about a time closer to 40 minutes even if you are doing 40 mph on the Beeline. It takes me 25 minutes to go 14+ miles in my car. That's not on the Beeline, but is on Shea and/or the 101 for most of the trip.

The reason that the DMV is having trouble with your bike is that it wasn't manufactured as a vehicle that would be registered. Normally the manufacturer has taken care of ensuring that brakes, tires, lights and the rest conform to state motor vehicle laws that are fairly standard throughout the U.S.

If you really want to register your e-bike, you'd probably have to pursue it as a "Specially Constructed vehicle".

My overall take is to either dial back your Beeline speeds to be under 35 mph or get a small motorcycle or scooter. BTW, while Beeline has a nice wide shoulder, there's also a lot of road debris there. And while the scenery is generally good, the landfill tends to be a bit smelly - especially in the summer time.

MadRhino said:

‘’ ... but does not include an electric bicycle ‘’

Same here. Ebikes, no matter how powerful and fast, are not part of motorcycle categories. The police don’t care about our power and speed, as long as we are not riding like criminals. Let’s hope this can last another decade.

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In the Arizona Revised Statutes, "electric bicycle" has a very specific meaning. The OP's electric bicycle is not legally an electric bicycle given his description. His bike definitely is a kind of motorcycle in Arizona. Specifically, a "motor driven cycle."
But yes, if it looks like a bicycle and if he doesn't get too crazy with speed, the police will probably never bother him.

And if he has a piece of paper from the DMV, then he has a good argument for leniency if he ever needs to go before judge where the definition of his bike and whether it should or shouldn't be registered and insured is a central issue.

Hello Jay,

thank you for your insights! Glad to have a similar minded person in the neighborhood.

I have done the trip in just over 40 minutes already, with all lights being green. 42-43 is normal for me right now. Coming back because of the hills is 50-55 minutes. Shea is shorter, but more traffic lights.

The debris is a major issue, hence I already have motorcycle rims and tires. Currently running mousse in the rear, so no chance of getting a flat.

I am now getting motorcycle lights, signalling lamps and a brake light, together with the simple electronics for that. I already have a horm and mirror, so according to the law i should be ok as a motorcycle.

I have been told that I can apply for a VIN and if I have a safe vehicle, then it would be issued to me. The required level 3 inspection costs 50 USD and the VIN 5 USD. They need about 1-2 weeks notice to give you an appointment.

All that is needed to my knowledge is:
1) Front and back lighting
2) At least 1 brake and brake light
3) Mechanism to show the intention to turn
4) Horn
5) 1 mirror
6) 1 reflector at the back

This seems reasonable and only the signal lamps and horn are beyond the motor driven cycle. The light intensity might be higher for a motorcycle as well.

Any advice on the registration of a motorcycle would hence also be greatly appreciated. Is there any location within the Phoenix area which is easier or more difficult to deal with?

I need to gain some experience with the DMV for my eCar anyway. I do not feel real comfortable in riding semi-legally. This is probably my German nature, when the law says 750W and I have 2200W on paper, I am uncomfortable. The next issue is that I cannot even get an insurance for a motor driven cycle right now. I hope this gets simpler when it is called a motorcycle. Until then I will ride slowly.

Many thanks

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

I am now getting motorcycle lights, signalling lamps and a brake light, together with the simple electronics for that. I already have a horm and mirror, so according to the law i should be ok as a motorcycle.

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I run an LED headlight made to be a replacement on Harley Motorcycles. So the headlight should be no problem.

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

I have been told that I can apply for a VIN and if I have a safe vehicle, then it would be issued to me. The required level 3 inspection costs 50 USD and the VIN 5 USD. They need about 1-2 weeks notice to give you an appointment.

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I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect things will be more complicated than this.

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

<snip>
Any advice on the registration of a motorcycle would hence also be greatly appreciated. Is there any location within the Phoenix area which is easier or more difficult to deal with?

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I'd go to the location below. It is a location that you could ride to with minimal traffic. It is within a mile of where our studio was located until we moved just this week. So I know the route well. I can give you route details if you'd like. I see this DMV location listed as doing Class 3 inspections. But if you are already out in Mesa, then maybe it makes sense to find a Mesa DMV location.

Scottsdale / Maricopa County
7339 E. Paradise Ln.
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480.778.1614

My concern would be whether or not your brakes and other accessories meet their safety requirements. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they require DOT (Department of Transportation) certified equipment for key components and that even good robust mountain bike stuff won't pass inspection. Your tires might be DOT certified, but I'm betting your brakes aren't. But I'm no expert and could be wrong about this. Take a look here and you'll see that even low speed vehicles (less than 25 mph) must meet Federal standards.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.500

Here are some more standards that may apply.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.123

Jamil.Siddiqi said:

I need to gain some experience with the DMV for my eCar anyway. I do not feel real comfortable in riding semi-legally. This is probably my German nature, when the law says 750W and I have 2200W on paper, I am uncomfortable. The next issue is that I cannot even get an insurance for a motor driven cycle right now. I hope this gets simpler when it is called a motorcycle. Until then I will ride slowly.

Click to expand...

Standard DMV stuff is pretty simple and easy. This, OTOH, could get very interesting. And like I said, at 30 mph and below, nobody will even notice you. Further, nobody knows how to measure motor watts. Put a 750 watt sticker on the motor and act ignorant. BTW, the 750 watt limit is ambiguously defined and there is ZERO infrastructure in place to test it. It is a limit designed for manufacturers, not do-it-yourself builders. And as you've already experienced, the DMV didn't really understand the law. Most police officers won't either.

Thank you for the explanation. I got my normal car registered in the Scottsdale DMV, so I know that location as well.

The e-car which I am building has a base kit from the UK. They have already sold around 100 of them in the US (with gas engines). None of their equipment has got a DOT certificate, since it is from Europe. So far they did not have an issue with the registration.

One item which was however quite interesting: I had an issue with customs, particularly on the lights. It is forbidden to import non-DOT lights into the US for road use. I had to decalre them as off-road/race-track lights only. As per the manufacturer the level 3 inspections did not have an issue with them so far. Mine might still be a year out. The motorbike (!) is taking all my time right now.

Below is what I got from the DMV.

Many thanks

From what I read, you cannot get a plate without a manufacturer assigned vin. This is why in the US, its much better to start with any old motorcycle frame. Just for that Vin number. This is what the guy at DMV was saying.

Right now it is an illegal, homemade, motorcycle with pedals. Tons of us ride em in the US, with no problems at all. Again, how you ride making all the difference. DO continue to try to get DMV to create a vin for you. Its possible, how else do people build custom chopper frames. But they are clearly building a motorcycle, and they are the manufacturer. You have a bike frame? one you did not manufacture?

Perhaps if you posted a picture of it when you started this thread, I'd have understood that you already had a homemade motorcycle more clearly. Sounds like it looks very little like a bicycle now.

But meanwhile, 30 mph in the city, pedal when you see a cop, should get you to work on time. You may never get to that 30 min commute, but hey, in Phoenix, a 45 min commute is outstanding.

this is what it looks like right now. I will be working on the motorbike conversion some more.