mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

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Sparfuchs   100 W

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mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by Sparfuchs » May 04 2021 11:36am

Hello EV friends,

I've a problem to connect my motor to my controller. The motor is a Torcman NT765-25 CPD100.25 and the controller is a kelly kbs48101x.
Does someone have an idea ?
IMG_20210504_174712.jpg
IMG_20210504_174712.jpg (1.86 MiB) Viewed 261 times
IMG_20210504_175001.jpg
IMG_20210504_175001.jpg (2.31 MiB) Viewed 261 times

fatty   10 kW

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by fatty » May 04 2021 7:01pm

The first picture is just the controller side.

The second picture shows three phase wires. Do you mean strange because two are orange and one black -- no correlation to the green, blue, yellow of the controller? There is no standard for wire color anyway, but the strange orange and black use may be relevant to the next point...

For the 7-wire cable, the motor is offered with 3x Halls and NTC temp sensor, which require +5VDC and a shared ground, so that's normally 6 pins. Maybe they're running the Halls and NTC on separate grounds? That would give 7 wires.
However, the cable is shielded when it certainly doesn't need to be -- in fact, there's nothing to connect the shield to. So maybe they just used whatever extra cable they had laying around, like the orange and black phase wires, and it just happened to have 7 wires?

Link to manual is broken -- correct link and attached
Attachments
Manual_NT530-765.pdf
(992.81 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Sparfuchs   100 W

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by Sparfuchs » May 05 2021 12:53pm

fatty wrote:
May 04 2021 7:01pm
The first picture is just the controller side.

The second picture shows three phase wires. Do you mean strange because two are orange and one black -- no correlation to the green, blue, yellow of the controller? There is no standard for wire color anyway, but the strange orange and black use may be relevant to the next point...

For the 7-wire cable, the motor is offered with 3x Halls and NTC temp sensor, which require +5VDC and a shared ground, so that's normally 6 pins. Maybe they're running the Halls and NTC on separate grounds? That would give 7 wires.
However, the cable is shielded when it certainly doesn't need to be -- in fact, there's nothing to connect the shield to. So maybe they just used whatever extra cable they had laying around, like the orange and black phase wires, and it just happened to have 7 wires?

Link to manual is broken -- correct link and attached
Thanks a lot for your replie fatty,
yes, the two red and the black phase wire confuses me a lot because i don't know how to connect them to my controllers blue, green, yellow wires. Or how to start trying around without harming the motor ?

And i know that there are usually 3 halls, one +5v, one GND and sometimes a temp wire. But I've no idea how to find out what colors need to bee connected. I would assume that the green,blue and yellow wire are the 3 halls and might need to be connected to the same colors on the controller. The white one might be for the temperature. But I've no idea what could be +5V and GND because the colors are unusual.

Is there a way to find out ?

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Sparfuchs   100 W

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by Sparfuchs » May 05 2021 1:07pm

I found a picture of the sensor board the motor uses. Maybe it helps to solve my problem ?
hall.JPG
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fatty   10 kW

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by fatty » May 06 2021 12:44am

Sparfuchs wrote:
May 05 2021 12:53pm
But I've no idea how to find out what colors need to bee connected.
Have you asked the manufacturer and seller? What did they say?
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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Sparfuchs   100 W

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by Sparfuchs » May 06 2021 7:17am

fatty wrote:
May 06 2021 12:44am
Sparfuchs wrote:
May 05 2021 12:53pm
But I've no idea how to find out what colors need to bee connected.
Have you asked the manufacturer and seller? What did they say?
Yes, i tried to but did not get an answer yet.

atkforever   1 W

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by atkforever » May 07 2021 5:29pm

Kelly has auto-identification it means if you tick the option in the config program then when you will power again the controller it will find the right hall combination and save it (and I suggest you do that, even on a motor with obvious phase colors + hall colors the motor wasnt running well untill I did that auto-identification thing).

To find the right +5v and gnd you Can apply a voltage bellow 20v (5v ideally) on the supposed positive wire, same for gnd, and mesure the voltage between one Hall wire and gnd. If when you turn the motor by hand you get something around 5v, then you've found the right + and gnd. This hall testing procedure might help you :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... HCSYI05SE-

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Sparfuchs   100 W

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by Sparfuchs » May 10 2021 4:49am

atkforever wrote:
May 07 2021 5:29pm
Kelly has auto-identification it means if you tick the option in the config program then when you will power again the controller it will find the right hall combination and save it (and I suggest you do that, even on a motor with obvious phase colors + hall colors the motor wasnt running well untill I did that auto-identification thing).

To find the right +5v and gnd you Can apply a voltage bellow 20v (5v ideally) on the supposed positive wire, same for gnd, and mesure the voltage between one Hall wire and gnd. If when you turn the motor by hand you get something around 5v, then you've found the right + and gnd. This hall testing procedure might help you :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... HCSYI05SE-
Thanks a lot for your helpful reply atkforever,
i'll definitely try the auto-identification as soon as i know what wires are for hall.
My problem is that there are 7 wires and not one of them where i know what it does.
So where and how should i start testing ?
Should i just take randomly one of the seven wires and connect it to a +5v source and then check the other six wires if one of them is gnd and if not, try the +5V on an other of the wires an so on ? I'm a bit afraid that i might harm a sensor or anything else if i try the +5V on a wrong wire. Is that possible or could i try the +5 on each of the seven wires without harming something ?

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by atkforever » May 10 2021 7:02am

So as said above there might be 2 ground wires so I'd check continuity between every wires. If you find 2 wires that have continuity, they might be GND, but this could also be 2 +5v wires...

I don't know if hall sensors are sensitive to reverse polarity. If I were you, I'd open the motor and you will be cleary able to identify the wires. Good luck ;)

fatty   10 kW

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by fatty » May 11 2021 1:29am

atkforever wrote:
May 10 2021 7:02am
So as said above there might be 2 ground wires so I'd check continuity between every wires. If you find 2 wires that have continuity, they might be GND, but this could also be 2 +5v wires...
If the motor is running separate grounds, they're going to be, well, intentionally separate -- they won't have continuity.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

atkforever   1 W

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Joined: Sep 25 2019 2:17pm

Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by atkforever » May 11 2021 2:22am

fatty wrote:
May 11 2021 1:29am
atkforever wrote:
May 10 2021 7:02am
So as said above there might be 2 ground wires so I'd check continuity between every wires. If you find 2 wires that have continuity, they might be GND, but this could also be 2 +5v wires...
If the motor is running separate grounds, they're going to be, well, intentionally separate -- they won't have continuity.
That's not 100% predictable, GND could have been splitted because it needs to be on two plugs.

fatty   10 kW

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Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by fatty » May 11 2021 2:47am

Sparfuchs wrote:
May 05 2021 1:07pm
I found a picture of the sensor board the motor uses. Maybe it helps to solve my problem ?hall.JPG
Looks like you can trace the wires through the PCB to the Hall sensors.
What do the little blue wires on the right go to -- temp sensor? If so, trace continuity back to the main harness. Everything that doesn't go to the little blue wires should be Hall sensors.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

fatty   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 513
Joined: Nov 14 2020 9:15pm
Location: USA

Re: mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Post by fatty » May 11 2021 2:56am

atkforever wrote:
May 11 2021 2:22am
That's not 100% predictable, GND could have been splitted because it needs to be on two plugs.
Split to bridged in the PCB back to split? Seems unlikely, but I guess anything is possible.. But that would mean testing continuity isn't much help.
Don't take advice from:
there is no difference between a mean well CC/CV power supply and a device sold as a charger. they operate in EXACTLY the same way
Testing has demonstrated that ordinary rim brakes thermally outperformed all but the best disc brakes...You'll always add weight and cost, while not equalling the capabilities of comparable rim brakes, if you use discs

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