Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 20 2019 4:06pm

Sur-Ron has made just a few prototypes so far, but they are in production now and up for sale as soon as the first production run clears the factory.

https://www.surronshop.com/stranica-tov ... 16kw-motor

I've been in touch with a guy named Daniel Orlov who replied back to the email address (6204278@gmail.com) listed on the web site.

The images on the web page are confusing and Daniel has told me they are images of a prototype, not a production motor.

The specs say 6666 RPM and 9000 RPM, but no KV's.

Asking Daniel about this he told me 66.6kv and 100kv and that the RPM's were achieved at 80v.

I can do basic math with the best of them and calculate forwards and backwards to get voltage, Kv and RPM. The math doesn't work out.


I posted this in my last email to Daniel:

These Kv's and the voltage you mentioned in your response don't match up with each other or the information on the web page. I'm not sure what is true at the moment.

66.6kv at 100v = 6,660 RPM max (Very close to 6666 RPM as listed on the web page and mentioned by you.)

100kv at 100v = 10,000 RPM max (Trying to stick with 100v. That doesn't match up to anything.)

100kv x 90v = 9000 RPM max (Not 100v or 80v to get 9000 RPM.)

66.6kv x 80v = 5328 RPM max (80v is what you said the test voltage was. Doesn't match with 6666 RPM.)

100kv x 80v = 8000 RPM max (80v is what you said. Not matching with 9000 RPM.)

Going backwards...

6666 RPM/80v = 83.3 Kv (A lot higher than 66.6kv and lots lower than 100kv.)

9000 RPM/80v = 112.5 Kv (This is pretty high for a 181mm outrunner. Most outrunners of this size are down in the 40-70kv range.)

Again...I'm not sure what information is correct. Nothing checks out or matches up with what you told me or is found on the web page.



Looking at the pictures on the web page, it appears the stator has 27 teeth and the armature 18 magnets. I'm not 100% sure about either of those counts as you can't see the entire stator or armature. I'm guessing based on the typical stuff you see in outrunners. It looks like the larger magnets are about 2X wider than a stator tooth.

Daniel told me the motor is made by a guy or company...not sure which it is...named Roman or YTW200. He even gave me an address in Moscow.

улица Свободы 35 строение 10, вход со стороны фабрициуса на углу с ул. Свободы.
Svobody street 35, building 10, the entrance from the factory on the corner from st. Of freedom.

Google maps satellite view of this address looks like an apartment building to me. LOL


Does anybody know anything about this motor?
Is anybody in Moscow that can go check it out?

This is the images from the web page:

What's going on with the magnets? They protrude in one image and are flush in the other. What's with the smaller magnets? Neo magnets are usually coated in chrome or copper and the actual magnet is a dull silver color. Sumarium Cobalt magnets can be blackish but these really look like ceramic magnets. Maybe the bigger ones are not Neo's? Maybe the little ones are Neo's? I've never sen a magnet spacing like this before with 2 big magnets and 1 little one. Weird!

Image

Image

Motor bell and bottom of the stator.

Image

You can see that the magnet is 2X wider than a stator tooth. I wonder what a "Reaper bike" is. I googled this and found a modded Honda GROM...not it. You can see part of a web site URL "...motors.com" and possibly "Montenegro". TIG or MIG welds to the shaft? A circlip ought to work.

Image
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 20 2019 7:40pm

Googling for "Roman YTW200" Landed me a few results.

https://electrotransport.ru YWT200 is listed here as a member in Moscow on this EV site.
https://vk.com/ytw200 Probably the same guy. This is a social media site and Roman Kostrygin is into EV's and even has a Sur-Ron.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT99-f ... 5xLRh5f05A This is Roman Kostrygin again.

I think this might be an early prototype of the Sur-Ron motor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmuBj2l8hV8

I posted in the video if it was and it is. This video is of an early prototype of the new Sur-Ron outrunner.
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 21 2019 4:09pm

I found out a few more details...

I got confirmation that the stator has 27 teeth and 18 magnets in the armature.
The stator is 40mm tall and made from .3mm lams of "Kawasaki Factory 5% silicon and 95% iron"
The large magnets are 50 x 20 x 7 mm.
The motor weighs about 8.5kg.

Roman is the real manufacturer of these motors, not Sur-Ron. They are just reselling his motors and using them in a soon to be released new bike.
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 21 2019 7:34pm

I've been talking to Roman today. He was able to clear up all the confusion. He sent me a few pictures of the real production motor.
He speaks Russian and I speak English. Everything said goes back and forth in google translate. There were times when what he said or I said made no sense after translation. Technical terms translated poorly.

Roman told me that at 15kw continuous, the 66kv version barely gets warm. "Maximum observed current was more than 500 amps. The engine always remained cold."

It looks like the motor bells got printed wrong, hence the 3.9kw and 12v. He told me his web site is down until he can get it developed. jedimotors.com is a real URL, but there's no content on it. "Made in Montengro" is a bit confusing since the motors are made in Northern Moscow. Only the empty motor bell is made in Montenegro or about 1200 miles away from Moscow.

Motor bells: With another custom shaft.

Image

Image

Motor shafts: These are for a specific job that required a splined shaft. He will get shafts made however you want. They are not the same shaft as seen above.

Image

Shaft adapter: The way the shaft works is the keyed section goes into the motor bell adapter in the center of the first picture. The OD of the bell adapter and the thicker section on the shaft are the same. I can't read the bearing numbers so I'm waiting to find out from Roman.

Image

Image

Parts from a prototype:

Image

He winds his own stators with 1mm wire in either 2 turns, 100kv and 18 strands or 3 turns, 66kv and 12 strands. The spool has 12 parallel strands on it of 1mm wire.

Image

Magnet spacers: He gets parts made for him and then assembles the motors himself. These plastic spacers make magnet placement easy.

Image

I've posted this image previously, but now I know a lot more about what is going on with the magnets. The magnets are interesting. The large ones are Samarium Cobalt and of a lower flux density than the smaller magnets which are N45 neos. This is a translation from Russian to English so some stuff gets lost. "They allow you to have a high turnover and the lack of heating of the stator of the frequency of switching. Small magnets are top quality Neodymium. They give a very high torque for each amp of current." He claimed that this magnet arrangement made the stator run a lot cooler and made the motor more efficient.

Image
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 22 2019 4:49pm

I asked about bearings and they are 6007-2RS so 35mm ID.

A few more pics of the motor...

The motor base is quite stout looking. I can mount to that directly.

Image

This is the shaft to bell adapter on top of the stator.

Image

I asked if he had a wiring diagram and he did. I was not expecting it to be wired WYE. Of course with 2 or 3 turn per tooth, in delta, this motor would be 113kv or 170kv...too fast for a large outrunner.

Image
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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by John in CR » Nov 23 2019 8:05pm

Sounds like a pretty good motor. What's the phase-to-phase resistance? To me that's the most important spec when it comes to real world power handling. Personally I like much lower rpm for a quieter ride and accept the added motor weight, but for grins what's the no load current at the high rpm?

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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 26 2019 5:44pm

Putting all the specs in one post...

27 stator teeth and 18 magnets
WYE motor wiring
40mm tall stator
.3mm lams of "Kawasaki Factory 5% silicon and 95% iron
Large magnets are samarium cobalt 50 x 20 x 7 mm, equivalent to N35
Small magnets are N45 neodymium
Motor weight: 8.5kg.

66kv
15kw continuous
3 turns per tooth
12 strands of 1mm wire
8.4 mOhms per phase

100kv
18kw or more continuous
2 turns per tooth
18 stands of 1mm wire
3.7 mOhms per phase

1mm wire = 20.95 mOhms per meter

3.7 mOhms x 18 strands = 66.6 mOhms per strand
8.4 mOhms x 12 strands = 100.8 mOhms per strand

100kv = 3.187 meters = 10.43 feet
66.6kv = 4.811 meters = 15.78 feet
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 29 2019 1:12pm

Any bit of information I ask for, Roman is quite forthcoming. So far I'd say my experience with him has been really good. I have decided to buy a motor from him and it ought to arrive in early January. I presented what I noticed in the below prototype images to him and He just laughed and happily answered all my questions. Nice guy!

Some people may have noticed that not all the motor parts are the same. I asked about this and found out. There's a few prototype images mixed in with the production images. These are prototype parts. Basicly any motor image where the bell has 8 spokes or there is no shaft coming out the top of the motor is made with prototype parts.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

This is production shaft parts. Apparently there is demand for adding a sprocket out the top of the shaft and the bottom at the same time. So all production units with the exception of requests for custom shafts come with shaft extending top and bottom. This is a standard sized moto spline shaft for 428 sprockets. I don't know if sprockets for other chain sizes also fit. This spline is totally new to me. Apparently any 20mm 6 tooth splined sprocket will fit...like this one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010U ... 1L2P&psc=1

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Prototype far right. Complete production unit in the back and parts of production units left and center.

Image

These are production parts.

Image
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 11 2019 3:14am

My motor is almost done!
Roman told me it has been dipped in laquer and the next step is the remaining assembly and some testing.
My sister might be able to pick it up next weekend.
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 14 2019 5:19pm

Roman is a nice guy! I really like him. He appears to be completely honest and 100% forthcoming with any information I ask for. His one goal IMHO is to make a great motor. I think he takes pride in doing good work and not cutting corners.

My sister lives in Moscow...about a 30 minute train ride from Roman. She is an American living in Moscow Russia. She has a pretty good perspective about Americans and Russians. After living in Moscow for 8 years, learning the language, living in their culture, she has a pretty good idea how people there do things. Just a couple of days ago she was telling me about small industry in Moscow. The people take great pride in making top tier products. For them it is a thing of honor to do the best work possible. I really get the sense from talking to Roman that this is exactly how he does things.

Roman sent me a few more pictures.

Completed stators after being dipped in laquer:

Image

Image

He does motor bells in this gloss red or in flat black.

Image

Notice the armature shaft that has no splined section. This is for the new Sur-Ron bike that will use this motor.

Image

They are belt driven from the top of the motor.

Image

He sent me a short video of the new Sur-Ron bike prototype. It uses a jack shaft. Stage 1 gearing is via belt. Stage 2 gearing is via chain. Here's a still image from the video of the prototype bike. My suspicion is this is with a 100kv motor. 66kv is easily geared down in a single stage.

Image
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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by sn0wchyld » Dec 14 2019 9:36pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Dec 14 2019 5:19pm
Roman is a nice guy! I really like him. He appears to be completely honest and 100% forthcoming with any information I ask for. His one goal IMHO is to make a great motor. I think he takes pride in doing good work and not cutting corners.

My sister lives in Moscow...about a 30 minute train ride from Roman. She is an American living in Moscow Russia. She has a pretty good perspective about Americans and Russians. After living in Moscow for 8 years, learning the language, living in their culture, she has a pretty good idea how people there do things. Just a couple of days ago she was telling me about small industry in Moscow. The people take great pride in making top tier products. For them it is a thing of honor to do the best work possible. I really get the sense from talking to Roman that this is exactly how he does things.

Roman sent me a few more pictures.

Completed stators after being dipped in laquer:

Image

Image

He does motor bells in this gloss red or in flat black.

Image

Notice the armature shaft that has no splined section. This is for the new Sur-Ron bike that will use this motor.

Image

They are belt driven from the top of the motor.

Image

He sent me a short video of the new Sur-Ron bike prototype. It uses a jack shaft. Stage 1 gearing is via belt. Stage 2 gearing is via chain. Here's a still image from the video of the prototype bike. My suspicion is this is with a 100kv motor. 66kv is easily geared down in a single stage.

Image
is that a chopped surron frame bolted to a new battery box?

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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by John in CR » Dec 16 2019 12:57pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Nov 26 2019 5:44pm
Putting all the specs in one post...

27 stator teeth and 18 magnets
WYE motor wiring
40mm tall stator
.3mm lams of "Kawasaki Factory 5% silicon and 95% iron
Large magnets are samarium cobalt 50 x 20 x 7 mm
Small magnets are neodymium
Motor weight: 8.5kg.

66kv
15kw continuous
3 turns per tooth
12 strands of 1mm wire
8.4 mOhms per phase

100kv
18kw or more continuous
2 turns per tooth
18 stands of 1mm wire
3.7 mOhms per phase

1mm wire = 20.95 mOhms per meter

3.7 mOhms x 18 strands = 66.6 mOhms per strand
8.4 mOhms x 12 strands = 100.8 mOhms per strand

100kv = 3.187 meters = 10.43 feet
66.6kv = 4.811 meters = 15.78 feet
"Per phase" or phase-to-phase. For comparing motors phase-to-phase is best, since it is easily measured, and that's the path current takes in a motor. Hopefully the numbers above are phase-to-phase. Then the 500A is a reasonable peak current limit for the slower wind motor, though 2100W of heat just in the copper heats things up quickly, and require cooling.

Roman being a nice guy is fine, but how about something real like no-load current. No load current at two rpm points would be even better, because then we could plug the motor into Miles' motor spreadsheet and see how good it really is with an efficiency prediction based on the values given.

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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 16 2019 4:27pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Dec 14 2019 9:36pm

Image

is that a chopped surron frame bolted to a new battery box?
I have no idea. Roman didn't include much of an explanation for the video...just the motor running in this frame was for the new Sur-Ron bike. I don't really know more than that.
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 16 2019 5:01pm

John in CR wrote:
Dec 16 2019 12:57pm
"Per phase" or phase-to-phase. For comparing motors phase-to-phase is best, since it is easily measured, and that's the path current takes in a motor. Hopefully the numbers above are phase-to-phase. Then the 500A is a reasonable peak current limit for the slower wind motor, though 2100W of heat just in the copper heats things up quickly, and require cooling.

Roman being a nice guy is fine, but how about something real like no-load current. No load current at two rpm points would be even better, because then we could plug the motor into Miles' motor spreadsheet and see how good it really is with an efficiency prediction based on the values given.
When did you buy a motor where you have access to the phase ends independent to the other phase ends?
These measurements are exactly what you know they are...in a completed motor that is wired WYE.
What I have posted is what Roman has told me.
Until I actually have one of these motors in January, I'm just repeating what he tells me.
I've presented everything he gives me. Let me ask about no load current. I bet he's entirely forthcoming.
He was honest about this...hadn't checked for no load current.
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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by district9prawn » Dec 16 2019 6:46pm

I'm curious how the no load current looks at higher rpm. The rotor looks quite thin.

Mechanically it looks good though.
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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 16 2019 10:53pm

district9prawn wrote:
Dec 16 2019 6:46pm
I'm curious how the no load current looks at higher rpm. The rotor looks quite thin.

Mechanically it looks good though.
No idea...yet. Roman hadn't checked for this. He's been entirely honest...even when he hasn't done something.

Better pics...that will wait til early January...
No load...same...once I have the motor.
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Post by ElectricGod » Jan 12 2020 8:56pm

I have the motor now.
I'll be pretty busy the next week or two.
I volunteer with a retired shop teacher and teach middle school kids about building EV's.
We hope to do an advanced class soon where it's less like legos and more where the kids do real design work on their own EV.
The current EV's are reused for the class over and over again.
It would be cool if they got to take home what they build and keep it.
We have a class to run with 12 kids.

Anyway...
I'll be doing no load phase and battery current testing so I can present motor efficiency.
I can test it at 48v, 66v and 82v to see if that makes a difference.
I'll be measuring phase resistance and inductance.
I'll be posting pictures of the motor.
Testing will use a Nucular 24 fet controller.
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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by boars » Jan 12 2020 9:48pm

Lucky kids, I'd love a course like that to be available here, maybe there's something similar, I should get off my butt and have a look :lol:

Interesting motor though, looking forward to reading a bit more on it.
Seems like a good option for a moto conversion?

What are you planning on bolting it to?

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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 13 2020 10:14am

boars wrote:
Jan 12 2020 9:48pm
Lucky kids, I'd love a course like that to be available here, maybe there's something similar, I should get off my butt and have a look :lol:

Interesting motor though, looking forward to reading a bit more on it.
Seems like a good option for a moto conversion?

What are you planning on bolting it to?
I have a scooter in mind for it.
The problem I have right now is time.
I think I can work in some bench testing.
An actual build will have to wait.
15kw = 20hp A moto build would do well on this motor.

The 100 kv version is the higher wattage version since there's more copper cross section per turn.
It's also going to need 2 stages of gearing to get all that motor RPM brought down to a reasonable wheel RPM.
It has a fairly high eRPM too and that means you need a controller that can run it that also has a high eRPM.

I got the 66 kv version so these issues would be less of a concern.

Kids and EV's...
There are several programs in the USA. Mine is supported by the Denver Electric Vehicle Counsel or DEVC. Others around the country are privately supported or sometimes part of a vocational technical school. There's a fairly large loose organization in the USA for high school kids. It's all after school, but the kids build e-bikes to specific wattage and battery specs. Then they race them for endurance and speed. There's 3 categories in that group. Car battery powered at 24v, Lithium powered at 36v and lithium powered at 48v. None of those builds are powerful or fast. Top speeds are like 40 mph and they take a couple of minutes to get there. What is impressive is the range these kids are getting...some up to 30 miles on a very small pack.
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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by Ohbse » Jan 14 2020 1:17pm

With phase to phase resistance, no load current at two voltage levels, KV and motor weight the motor can be characterised and performance accurately predicted at virtually any input conditions. Extensive batteries of tests aren't strictly needed, but feel free to do then anyway

Easiest way to measure phase resistance is to pass a fixed current from one phase lead to another and measure voltage drop with a decent meter.

The only thing this math can't really predict is ability to reject heat, different designs vary dramatically on that front. This looks pretty good.

I think it's worth clarifying your thread title that this isn't a surron made motor, semantics matter if people are finding this via Google and getting confused.

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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 14 2020 5:09pm

Ohbse wrote:
Jan 14 2020 1:17pm
With phase to phase resistance, no load current at two voltage levels, KV and motor weight the motor can be characterised and performance accurately predicted at virtually any input conditions. Extensive batteries of tests aren't strictly needed, but feel free to do then anyway

Easiest way to measure phase resistance is to pass a fixed current from one phase lead to another and measure voltage drop with a decent meter.

The only thing this math can't really predict is ability to reject heat, different designs vary dramatically on that front. This looks pretty good.

I think it's worth clarifying your thread title that this isn't a surron made motor, semantics matter if people are finding this via Google and getting confused.
is it worth getting 3 or even 4 no load test points? main thought being that will show up any non-linearity more clearly than just 2 test points... granted a fair amount more work to do.

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 15 2020 12:16am

When I started this thread, I found the motor on the Sur-Ron parts website. It was only later that I found the real maker of the motor. I could change the title of the thread, but all the posts in the thread would still say Sur-Ron. I can edit my posts to fix this, but that's all. What should I call the thread?

I have a 4 wire milli-ohm meter. Measuring phase resistance can be done directly.
I have a LIPO bench battery pack I made from a bunch of 4S 16Ah Multistar packs.
It has connections at 12S, 16S, 20S, 24S, 28S and 32S.
More data points (pack voltages) makes predicting efficiencies at other voltages more accurate.
I have a 150v sinusoidal controller, but it's good up to 50,000 eRPM...so too slow to run this motor.
Very soon, I will have a VESC based 150v, 24 fet FOC controller that can do 100,000 eRPM.
In between time the Nucular 24 fet at up to 82v will have to do.


I have quite a lot of BLDC motors.
They range in cost from $1500 to $100 new.
I buy them purely for the curiosity factor and so I can share them with others like I'm doing here.
Some get used in EV's I build.
I have several high end motors from sources like Motenergy and AstroFlight.
I have 7 motors made by Revolt.
I have 5 from Alien Power.
I have 3 Hubmonster motors.
I also have some really cheap Chinese BOMA motors.
And now this Russian made outrunner.
All of those motors cog from the magnets being attracted to the stator iron EXCEPT this outrunner.
It's like the magnets are in near perfect balance with the stator.
The armature turns very easily with very little magnetic cogging.

I have yet to run the motor myself, but Roman made me a video of it running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILBIa1f ... e=youtu.be

Edited...got the wrong URL for the video.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 15 2020 9:48am, edited 2 times in total.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

Benjamin Franklin - "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 15 2020 2:43am

links broken EG - states duplicate vid

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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 15 2020 9:49am

sn0wchyld wrote:
Jan 15 2020 2:43am
links broken EG - states duplicate vid
Try the new URL. I just changed it.
I also changed the thread name in all my posts.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

Benjamin Franklin - "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Roman Kostrygin - Sur-Ron 16kw outrunner

Post by John in CR » Jan 16 2020 6:31pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Jan 15 2020 12:16am
...I have 3 Hubmonster motors...
You didn't purchase any from me or anyone I sold one to, so you have exactly zero HubMonster motors. As I told you before that is my trade name for a specific line of discontinued 6 phase motors I purchased from the factory after first testing them for 9 months. The factory built a number of different models of 6 phase motors for use on their own escooters as well as for other companies. There were only a few different rotor shells, but some had different magnets, stator lengths, and windings. Without complete testing you really have no idea what exactly you have other than that they have 6 phase wires. I asked you nicely before not to use the name, and now I must insist. I spent hard earned money and mountains of time creating a good reputation for that name, and I'll not have it tarnished by any association with you or any perceived association with you.

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