The person who has been running higher power through hubmotors than anyone here doesn't use Ferro Fluid

John in CR

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Why? The person who has been running higher power through hubmotors than anyone on the forum for almost a decade doesn't waste the time or money (and as it turns out, motors) using FF.


(moderator note: this group of posts was split off , due to off-topicness, from a thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105300
specifically created to collect data on motors that failed using ferrofluid (meaning that posts about motors that work without it aren't relevant to that data).
 
John in CR said:
Why? The person who has been running higher power through hubmotors than anyone on the forum for almost a decade doesn't waste the time or money (and as it turns out, motors) using FF.
I cringe and feel embarrassed for you, the way you so often try to brag about having a high-power hub motor.

And now you're mocking people for wanting to get more performance out of their own equipment.

Wake up to yourself. SMH.
 
serious_sam said:
John in CR said:
Why? The person who has been running higher power through hubmotors than anyone on the forum for almost a decade doesn't waste the time or money (and as it turns out, motors) using FF.
I cringe and feel embarrassed for you, the way you so often try to brag about having a high-power hub motor.
And now you're mocking people for wanting to get more performance out of their own equipment.
Wake up to yourself. SMH.

I didn't mock anyone. I'm just pointing out there are better more effective ways to get more performance. Now switching to mocking mode, people are generally more interested in doing whatever is the most popular thing however unproven it is, and the more likely it is to cost money instead of elbow grease the more likely they are to try it.
 
John in CR said:
Why? The person who has been running higher power through hubmotors than anyone on the forum for almost a decade doesn't waste the time or money (and as it turns out, motors) using FF.

I didn't mock anyone. I'm just pointing out there are better more effective ways to get more performance. Now switching to mocking mode, people are generally more interested in doing whatever is the most popular thing however unproven it is, and the more likely it is to cost money instead of elbow grease the more likely they are to try it.

It is probably not clear for everyone what you trying to point out so to explain the advice behind above boasts is to avoid heat in first place by using a high RPM motor in a small wheel (search for Hubmonster).
With regard to raw performance it is for sure the best setup, but it has it's downsides and i think this is not the right thread to discuss about that, eh?

And if you wanna be fair John you should then also mention that you do air cooling with drilled covers, right?
do you also brag about it when it starts to rain when you out for a ride :p
 
madin88 said:
And if you wanna be fair John you should then also mention that you do air cooling with drilled covers, right?
do you also brag about it when it starts to rain when you out for a ride :p

Only the one I'm running vented is at 31kw peak input, and no I don't worry about rain in the least, since it's been running trouble free at that current level since 2012. The only time I was concerned about vented at all was when one of the nearby volcanoes was quite active for a few months putting lots of magnetic dust in the air and on the roads. That was 2 years ago and still no ill effects. I run over 20kw peak into multiple factory sealed motors, and whether it's my high efficiency hubbies or other motors I have in service I take the time to match controller settings to the motor, load, gearing and terrain.

But no, that's not what happens. Instead people copy whatever is the "in" thing at the time, commonly without even knowing the difference between phase current and battery current, without regard to how the motor is wound, and almost never even bothering to take a few minutes to learn how and measuring phase-to-phase resistance of the motor to at least estimate the amount of heat created.

I reality my higher efficiency motors only give me a higher top speed than others. I don't ride around anywhere near the top speed of any of my bikes. The lower gearing of the smaller wheel allows me to push heavier loads up steeper terrain as well as have more thrust for a given current level.

None of that has anything to do with heat creation and dissipation, other than to a small extent that a higher rpm helps shed heat faster. Instead it reall boils down to heat created in the copper vs an estimate of the heat my motors can dissipate at a given temperature. I have much lower temperature tolerance than I see other reporting, and the surface area of my motor shell is smaller, so I'm obviously not making as much heat. That's not due to any efficiency advantage, but instead because I set lower current limits of a given torque output AND/OR ride in a manner that creates less heat. The later is so I can set higher current limits to show off and kick the shlt out of gasser motorcycles leaving stop lights or toll plazas but ride more conservatively when there's no one to teach a lesson.

Based on the 150-160°C motor temps I see some talk about (I use a 100°C limit), I question whether it's really the ferro-fluid causing the loose magnet problem and not simply temperature allowed to go too high, higher than manufacturers recommendations. According to Justin's thorough testing, ferro fluid adds what 10%-20% to cooling, and expensive and hard to install and keep clean and effective hubsinks adds what about the same? I'd argue the current levels that achieve the same benefit would barely be noticed, and certainly in combination with a slightly smaller wheel OD.

Despite these simple facts I'm really disappointed that someone with your knowledge and experience level (especially considering it's in mountainous terrain) is going to fall back on the excuse that because the motors I use are better than than can be currently bought, that's why I run them at temps far below the norm. The reason people are still melting motors is because they are lazy and copy nonsense bragging about current settings by those who don't know any better. You're one of of minority around here that I know understand, so don't get on my arse without looking from my POV. ie it's the braggarts about current settings (especially without regard to motor winding) that are a continuing problem on the forum that causes many who know no better to fry their systems. Sure I brag about power levels and top speeds that permits, and rightfully so, but it's not power that melts motors or adhesives, it's ridiculous current levels, and not a single time on this forum have you seen me encouraging high current without matching that to a low resistance.
 
I do appreciate the level of competence and wisdom displayed in this recent diversion

sincerely, not snark.

But would prefer if y'all could refrain continuing down that track

so this thread can have a good signal ratio for its intended topic?

Actual data to support how to do without FF is welcome of course, probably could be done without the personal intruding so much?

Thanks in advance
 
serious_sam said:
John in CR said:
According to Justin's thorough testing, ferro fluid adds what 10%-20% to cooling,
No. According to the Grin website, "on average roughly doubling the thermal conductivity from the copper windings to the outside environment"..."you can run it at roughly 40% higher sustained torque and power without overheating".
https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/statorade.html#how-well-does-it-work

I didn't remember it being that high, but if that's what it says so be it. Hopefully this magnets coming unglued thing is just an already rectified adhesive selection issue.
 
John in CR said:
Based on the 150-160°C motor temps I see some talk about (I use a 100°C limit),

So.. how much is just a claim and how much is honest overcurrent heating? Noone knows.

I got the 180 deg rollback..... Hit her often.... How long do I have, John?

My spec is 112A for the lil motor I have, ( phase, published by Qs).... All I really know is 100A from the battery shunt and 40A contin at my loaded Kv.. and I dont have to many problems. So far. "40" is quoted as peak for my motor, ... as whether that is phase or bat, IDk. I dont know the phase current put out. I suppose it is 100A.

You can see how fast the temp moves and the sensor analog and digital resolutions and datalogger rates and the swings and the graph paints a pretty portrait.

I wish more would datalog. There has always been a ballet in pwm efficincy, heat, current, power at load in a brushless microprocessor controller... and alot of motors ingeneral. Some pay to have the system ( set up and working), and brag, and some set it up themselves ( by careful choice of running hardwares templates vs controller choice, wheel choice, speed and accelerations load...)... ect.

You hear this brag or that brag but noone shows the log. You certainly have your 30+kw puller logging? I have a friend with a Batrium and he claims " 130v an 1000A onna 273 breaks 520 chain so I overbuild... 900ftlb.. " (lol wut tire takes that.. not even a 195/55Zr17.. get smoke not traction ... ).. and I kinda know its either bullshit or he dont know any better, mechanically or engineering wise to really know what is going on.... but where are the logs.. anyone serious should be able to log this dayin age.

Without datalog or knowing the real time output in PWM for your motor that you like to runnin continuously I think it is all "NON EMPIRICAL" EXPERIENCE we see alot of. We all know about using governors for the RC applications, high watt setups from small batteries and boats and planes and helis and cars... and how they work and are damaged, overheated, or well matched in the application and how to do it from the hobby RC brushless world.

I would love to compare the data. I log temp and have a thousand log history to peruse as I am waitn for the replacement parts or motor to show up when this one is done teaching me all it knows.

Another thing John.. Something I wanted to ask.. you always say overspec the controller.. do you not think an overspec controller ( using a 80A controller for a ~40A build) is a good idea still, and in practice? The best combo of motor controller depending more on motor choice/setup than controller implementations? YOU still feel this way after all these years? Overspec the controller, high voltage, and motor chosen for high rpm/small wheel. No danger running low duty cycle pwm... ? ( I mean low throttle input.. I think)

I am finding years worth of Infinion knowledge here too on this forum going years back. Good stuff.

Only thing I dont like is the idea of 20"od wheels to facilitate target rpm range..... 24" is the min I want to go I think.
 
The kind of cooling ferrofluid does isn't really impactful on peak power tolerance. It's to increase the continuous power rating.
 
John in CR said:
Hopefully this magnets coming unglued thing is just an already rectified adhesive selection issue.
Hopefully. But knowing Chinese manufacturers, probably not.

That's why the "Some Motors Incompatible with Statorade/Ferrofluid cooling" thread will be helpful. Getting a 40% boost in steady state torque capability for minimal dollars/effort is a huge gain.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105300
 
DogDipstick said:
John in CR said:
Based on the 150-160°C motor temps I see some talk about (I use a 100°C limit),

So.. how much is just a claim and how much is honest overcurrent heating? Noone knows.

I got the 180 deg rollback..... Hit her often.... How long do I have, John?

My spec is 112A for the lil motor I have, ( phase, published by Qs).... All I really know is 100A from the battery shunt and 40A contin at my loaded Kv.. and I dont have to many problems. So far. "40" is quoted as peak for my motor, ... as whether that is phase or bat, IDk. I dont know the phase current put out. I suppose it is 100A.

You can see how fast the temp moves and the sensor analog and digital resolutions and datalogger rates and the swings and the graph paints a pretty portrait.

I wish more would datalog. There has always been a ballet in pwm efficincy, heat, current, power at load in a brushless microprocessor controller... and alot of motors ingeneral. Some pay to have the system ( set up and working), and brag, and some set it up themselves ( by careful choice of running hardwares templates vs controller choice, wheel choice, speed and accelerations load...)... ect.

You hear this brag or that brag but noone shows the log. You certainly have your 30+kw puller logging? I have a friend with a Batrium and he claims " 130v an 1000A onna 273 breaks 520 chain so I overbuild... 900ftlb.. " (lol wut tire takes that.. not even a 195/55Zr17.. get smoke not traction ... ).. and I kinda know its either bullshit or he dont know any better, mechanically or engineering wise to really know what is going on.... but where are the logs.. anyone serious should be able to log this dayin age.

Without datalog or knowing the real time output in PWM for your motor that you like to runnin continuously I think it is all "NON EMPIRICAL" EXPERIENCE we see alot of. We all know about using governors for the RC applications, high watt setups from small batteries and boats and planes and helis and cars... and how they work and are damaged, overheated, or well matched in the application and how to do it from the hobby RC brushless world.

I would love to compare the data. I log temp and have a thousand log history to peruse as I am waitn for the replacement parts or motor to show up when this one is done teaching me all it knows.

Another thing John.. Something I wanted to ask.. you always say overspec the controller.. do you not think an overspec controller ( using a 80A controller for a ~40A build) is a good idea still, and in practice? The best combo of motor controller depending more on motor choice/setup than controller implementations? YOU still feel this way after all these years? Overspec the controller, high voltage, and motor chosen for high rpm/small wheel. No danger running low duty cycle pwm... ? ( I mean low throttle input.. I think)

I am finding years worth of Infinion knowledge here too on this forum going years back. Good stuff.

Only thing I dont like is the idea of 20"od wheels to facilitate target rpm range..... 24" is the min I want to go I think.

I have a Grin Analogger that I've yet to use. Just like I have a mountain of front/rear unprocessed videos from when I was commuting 40-50km/day depending on route, I'd pile up data files if I logged rides. Once I get my next 6 Nucular controller order which is held up waiting for parts from China, along with a pair or two of the new high voltage PowerVelocity VESC based controllers, then I want to do some comparative analysis between controllers that will require logging.

I blew one of my only reliable 24fet 4115 controllers by being stupid going too slow up a 20% continuous grade with a passenger, so my only spare is now in use and don't want to stress it and put my fastest bike out of commission. The dual 24's are each set at 135A battery 190A phase limits. They get warm but not hot, and the way I ride these days I never see the vented bladed motor exceed 90°C despite it now being on a 100kg+ bike. Reaching full current is a rarity, I think due to the restrictive phase/battery current ratio, it requires pegging the throttle from a full or near stop and holding it to speeds faster than I normally ride with the 31s pack.

Flat Tire's point about FF is probably right, but who rides with continuous power limits being much of a factor? Only those with very long mountain grades to climb, and they quickly learn to use much more conservative controller setting. For more typical intermittent high power use, the 10-20% I mentioned before is likely to be spot on for how much FF allows you to increase current settings.

How can you tolerate the big performance hit of allowing your motor to get to 180°C? With the increased resistance creating even more heat and limiting current added to the fact that the motor's magnets lose strength at high temperature, the difference in performance has to be quite noticeable. I feel the difference at only 100°.

Did you measure the original Kv of your motor, so you can know if you've done permanent damage to the magnets? Did you measure the phase-to-phase resistance? That's a good thing to do to confirm that your motor has no winding errors (measure all 3 combo's of phase-to-phase to make sure they're equal), and it gives you a solid base to give you an idea of how much heat you create at different current levels.

I love the incredible performance possible with electrics on demand at the twist of the throttle. As much as I love that, I love absolute reliability even more. That's why an unstressed system top to bottom is essential. Heat indicates stress.

Now that FF has been shown to be a direct cause of failures, thank goodness I never jumped on that bandwagon. While Madin88 intended some kind of dig, it brings up a valid question. Have there been any failures resulting from ventilated hubmotors? I've never heard of any and one of the early pioneers had his vented MagicPie out in the woods and streams and mud hanging with his gasser buddies? I wouldn't use one at the beach or on salted winter roads, and I'm sure most of you don't need to worry about magnetic volcanic dust (though that may not even cause a failure, but could work a bit like FF instead and actually improve heat transfer).

If you do go vented, at least do it with a thoughtful modification that stimulates both the intake of fresh air, and creates flow through the magnetic gap. Simply drilling holes in the side covers does very little compared to what is possible with blades on the exhaust side.

Since you voice opposition to small wheels, then you must be riding off road, in which case I'm sorry but a hubmotor isn't an appropriate solution.
 
The fact is that FF allows us to ride considerably (40%) harder for longer.

For me personally, it also means I can run PEAK power for longer (since in my case peak power is limited by the controller), AND just as importantly, my motor cools MUCH faster in-between bursts of high power.

All of this means more fun and satisfaction from riding my bike. My hub powered bike. Off-road. Inappropriately.
 
John in CR said:
I have a Grin Analogger that I've yet to use. Just like I have a mountain of front/rear unprocessed videos from when I was commuting 40-50km/day depending on route, I'd pile up data files if I logged rides.


Did you measure the original Kv of your motor, so you can know if you've done permanent damage to the magnets? Did you measure the phase-to-phase resistance? That's a good thing to do to confirm that your motor has no winding errors (measure all 3 combo's of phase-to-phase to make sure they're equal), and it gives you a solid base to give you an idea of how much heat you create at different current levels.



Since you voice opposition to small wheels, then you must be riding off road, in which case I'm sorry but a hubmotor isn't an appropriate solution.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOUR DATLOGS!

I just leave it running and log everything. Hid in the box with a tape ribbon to pull it out when needed to copy the logs. I probally pull the logs about every 30 power cycles and just peruse a few. I still have like 10,000logs from my EFI days.

Yes they pile up, date/timestamped and in Mb. I just use it ( now that the novelty has worn off) as a tool for troubleshooting and bragging about speed and power, and having a log to look at this or that particular instance on a ride.

Yes, original Kv is same as the Kv now, unloaded, 49.5mph. Did not measure phase to phase.. Will when I have the motor in front of me and disconnected then. For the record. I keep making power.. heat tapers at loaded Kv.. 3Kw contin and the motor does not mind that too much.. you see the ( power or amp) peaks and the (heat)soak very clearly.. the threshold. I began with no rollback.. and baselined from there for management... ( cuttin hairs) and decided based on the build, efficiencies, use case, that hitting 180* afew instants here or there is ok if I ride and sit round 80*-140*. I kinda am still making power ( accel) and the heat has not killed me yet... I thinkinghoping.... Short rides ( 5-12mi, 16 mile is my longest regular trip). Yes, uphill, 100A peak 50contin and loading the hub up up up slow until rollback, it will certainty roll back.

I do have a friend real dynojet here that I can put my bike on any day. If yall would like to know the real rearwheel output. I am pretty sure I only put down about 3-5Hp.. even though the logs show 10Hp ( going into the shunt only).. the rest is wasted in heat. ...BUT..the difference between a set 50A hit and a set 100A hit .. is a whole lota fun. I even feel the power differences 'tween a 80A and 100A hit. I like 100A. Still making power, but yea, more watts mean more waste. Soon to be wasting more than I put down... I would bet.

( OK Thats if now I gotta know..the power down.. : Edit:)

(From online calculators, on Engineers toolbox)
(https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/car-acceleration-d_1309.html)
Velocity change: 0-75Kmph
Time: 10sec, full throttle,
Weight: 118Kg bike/rider,
Acceleration: 2.08M/sec^2
Acceleration to gravity: 0.212 g
Distance: 104 meter
Force : 0.246 k(N)
Work: 25.6 k(N)meter
POWERR: 2.56Kw.. also known as 3.43 hp.

Every single one of these figures make absolute sense to me and seem accurate. Given my install. 0-75Km/hr from zero pull taking ten seconds. ( ten seconds to ~45mph) ( and that is even a brag.. it is really like 12 sec, 0 to 40mph.. on the datalogs... 2.5hp and 120m... same work so even more peak heat in all honesty) .

So there. Negotiating the other things, like we all know.. I waste (peak output 7.9Kw) 5,340w ( peak waste heat) that never gets to the ground... Now.. If I can do that in 8sec power is increased and distance is lessened.. and if I can do that in 6 sec.. lookout.. I'm pumping a solid 5.72hp for a 0-75kmph run in only 62.5 meters distance.. alot more umph and alot more force, same work.


No, mostly on road, but the small ( scooter size? lol) wheels (12"-18") I dont like cause of handling. Target tire diameter is ( goodolproven) 23-25".. just like a rocketbike ( xxx/xx/Zr17).. that I have experience with.. ( 3 superbikes in garage right now, dont ride them anymore) . Not talking 26"mtb benefits on my ride, but a tiny wheel would be a squirrel on flicking in and bar flopping, and whatnot.. Gravel trails are fun though still.

So onroad. Hubmotor. Screw (middiedrie) designing close/wide ration trains. Thats for geardesigningnerdswithpocketprotectors. 21"-24" OD. I really appreciate the experience, I know I can be a dick, just tell me Im being a newb cocky dick if yall want. Lol . I try to get all the info I can from yall experiences. Thanks for the humoring me.

You even have a Analogger... Jebus. Quit complaining about people not showing vids Show us your logs. PLS! Lol. I need a benchmark to set my goals to. Data sells. I have though about forcing air. That is easy to make work. After all, I know a turbine scientist... and have thought about simple fan driven air pressure through the hub for the convection and radiation.

I am gonna log everything I can for the rest of time.
 
John in CR said:
For more typical intermittent high power use, the 10-20% I mentioned before is likely to be spot on for how much FF allows you to increase current settings.

hmmm :eek: how can you claim to know better than Justin without having tried it?
According to his measurements of thermal conductivity you can run at 40% higher phase current with FF which is more or less consistent with my experience and of others.

can be found here:

https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/statorade.html


Your point of view i've understood, it is about all those things you could do to reduce heat in first place, like using a high RPM motor in a small wheel as you do, which means that someone could reduce phase amps without worsening acceleration, or setting a phase amp limit according to datasheet or torque to not push it into saturation.
I think most people who post here know about that and it is a good advice, but the thing with the wheelsize has it's downsides and is not an option for everyone.

When i was assembling high power bikes with hub motors guess what i did suggest to the customers when we were talking about performance and it's relationship with wheel size?
First thing was that most folks did prefer to have it look like a bicylce, which means no rims smaller than 19" moped or 24" bicylce came in question, and the second thing was weight and handling.
You do nothing good for the handling of your bike and for your health too if you mount that >15kg hubmotor on your bicycle, or doing one of those Qulbix or Vector builds which usually are also fairly lightweight (less than 20 - 30kg of sprung mass).
It will make the suspension to work like shit and with such lightweight frame there is even the risk that you make a salto forward if you ride over pot holes or curbs, simple for the reason that there is almost no difference between sprung and unsprung mass.

Bikes which can be compared and should be with what you have usually weight more than 100kg and so it is a totally differnt thing in terms of handling and suspension. Still not as comfortable as mid drive, but way better and safer as if you ride around with it on an ebike.

Raw performance is not everything and handling and suspension is at least of similar importance for having fun. Thats what i found out by myself and feedback from others.
If i would build a bike with 20-30kW hubdrive then i would buy one with watercooling or design it by myself. If you wanna have something rainproof and dusttight there is no other way that you can get rid off the heat even with 95% peak ETA motor.
 
madin88 said:
... and with such lightweight frame there is even the risk that you make a salto forward if you ride a bit faster over pot holes or curbs, simple for the reason that there is almost no difference between sprung and unsprung mass.

Might I ask, what is a "salto"?

My frame is light, and rather well balanced I would say.. Very soft though with the travel. Put it on scales and you see 53% on the rear wheel and 47% on the front dead.. ( without the live load of the rider). My DD hub motor is one of the smallest you can get mass wise. Rear wheel assembly is disproportionately heavier than the front. ( ~2x), Rear is ~20lbs. Not the best off road, not the best on road, but all around its performance has blown my simple mind away. I have had people tell me Im crazy when they see me after following me in a car for a few miles flicking the bike in and out of the curves... I can defiantly handle curves and takeoff better than most cars and trucks.. till I run out of Kv.. I still can also flick so hard I would go into an instant lowside. Yall watch I'll push the limit some day I alsoways do. It is fast enough to really hurt yourself if a flickin went low.. Honestly want to push the "kneedraggin limit" but know that is no good idea...

There is the point we all know about when a motorcycle leans...

very easy to model with the angle and force vectors... see if she would capsize or not @ that speed and traction... but not many mc (common) go deep in a lean.. slip angles and all that whatnot in vehicle design... Usually under 22.5* lean...

(Random fact) ( Kawasaki published 54* for my ZX, revolutionary for the time, and that is about as low as you get kneedraggin like MickDoohan or Valentno Rossi.. and I know I will be a scrape on the pavement if I try to be cool like them). (lil random further reading: Quotes max average 60* on race rubber..... https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=motorcycle+lean+max+angle.. Im such a dork this is why I get into trouble, reading to much random shiiiii. .. )

I wanna get into a discussion about synchronous rectification, active and passive freewheeling too. That is a controller heat thing, should i worry over it with ebike controllers? I still dont know. What about the mag/pole/wind combos and the electrical rpm vs Hz pwm?? Anyone want to get into that or show me where I can read more?
 
DogDipstick said:
Might I ask, what is a "salto"?
a flip forward
I can defiantly handle curves and takeoff better than most cars and trucks.. till I run out of Kv.. I still can also flick so hard I would go into an instant lowside. Yall watch I'll push the limit some day I alsoways do. It is fast enough to really hurt yourself if a flickin went low.. Honestly want to push the "kneedraggin limit" but know that is no good idea...
Sound like fun :mrgreen: and like somobody who is familiar and knows what he is doing with his bike.

As long as the road is flat and smooth the unsprung mass in your wheel will not cause issues, but when it's uneven in corners it cannot harm to go off throttle to avoid problems with traction.
 
madin88 said:
a flip forward


Aha. We called that an "Endo" here in the United States once upon a time, I think, a long time ago... Thankyou. Here I am, fearing the old 'endo"... Lol. I have a pack slung under the down tube and fear rubbing. I used to take my BMX on half pipes and similar. Back when I was much younger. Of course I remember every bike I ever had. I think. :)

I honestly should look into water cooling. Good ol 8.34 and 7.45 ( lbs/gal and Gal/CuFt).

HErE is a Full ThrOtTle downhill/uphill on my bike. Muchos fun, even though I am quite a newb yet. Into the turn (downhill) I am about 36-38mph. I like the size.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMV5SlFN1y4 It feels fast for me, and seeing how fast some you people get, ..... I am slow in comparison.
 
John in CR said:
Instead it reall boils down to heat created in the copper vs an estimate of the heat my motors can dissipate at a given temperature. I have much lower temperature tolerance than I see other reporting, and the surface area of my motor shell is smaller, so I'm obviously not making as much heat. That's not due to any efficiency advantage, but instead because I set lower current limits of a given torque output AND/OR ride in a manner that creates less heat. The later is so I can set higher current limits to show off and kick the shlt out of gasser motorcycles leaving stop lights or toll plazas but ride more conservatively when there's no one to teach a lesson.

So that is the classic Quarterhorse. Sprinter. Sprint car style, 7-900 hp straight to the diff. 100m runner, not the 1000M. Cool.
 
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