Mid-drive IPM motor options?

tylerwatts

100 W
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
212
Hello forum

I'm trying to find options for ipm motors for my build.

I have seen Lightningrods XL big block ipm.
I understand LMX can source IPM motors (same as LR I believe).
I found another supplier of seemingly the same ipm motor in EU.
QS mid drive motors are IPM.

Are there any others people know of?

Next question, LR/LMX motor or 1kw QS motor?

Cheers
Tyler

 
IPM is way way better for flux weakening. This is well known and someone with 3000 posts should know.

The QS138 70H is supposed to be pretty good. I have one sitting around and it will definitely do big power but is rather heavy for a bicycle and in particular is quite wide.
 
some threads about ipm, which also discuss some motors you might use.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=ipm&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
 
Not sure what post count has to do with the price of fish, I am a complete noob wrt motor tech.

I also have no interest in field weakening, nor speed in general, just torque heavy loads long hills, in bottom gear

Thanks for the search link, only works if I switch to the web, but lots of fun playing with the URL bits there.

Will do some research and return.
 
john61ct said:
Why do you care about "IPM" specifically, what are IRL advantages?
Hi John

IPM is more efficient producing torque at lower speeds, it isn't using only current generated magnetic fields, but is using induction fields as well. Basically magnetic field from last pole collapses and reverses, pushing the rotor to the next pole while the next pole also pulls. So you can get 20-30% more torque for the current for a good controller. Expertly tuned systems are even better.

Secondly, the design of an IPM rotor allows Hugh rpm as it is mechanically secured, the magnets are within the structure of the rotor and can't 'fall' off the rotor.

So you can have better torque from a higher KV Kotor and still higher RPMs too. Simply speaking. I'm not expert, that's a basic description.

And that's what I want, a higher constant torque to extend/increase the continuous power at higher rpm. And a side effect is the higher speed gives better cooking.

Cheers
Tyler

 
And the QS motors are great, but too big for my build, I can live with less power but need a smaller form.

Cheers
Tyler


 
amberwolf said:
some threads about ipm, which also discuss some motors you might use.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=ipm&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
That search won't work for me, in Tapatalk, in browser or manually copied to the browser separately. I'll try searching again, I did a search before posting the thread.

Cheers
Tyler

 
Thanks for that, efficiency is good, but some sources suggest IPM is not the best for super high torque at **very low** RPM?

And here you go, I also prefer Google to the forum software

https://www.google.com/search?q=endless-sphere.com+IPM+OR+%22permanent+magnet%22

 
Unfortunately most available are too wide for my preferences on a mid drive. Outrunners are not my first choice and You would need to work out the mount and sprocket side support but these did catch my eye. Perfect width, KV, and torque for a killer ride.
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/20kw-238-50-Lightweight-Large-Brushless-Motor
238-50b.jpg

Another that looked interesting for mid drive.
https://www.kdedirect.com/collections/uas-multi-rotor-brushless-motors/products/kde10218xf-105
KDE10218XF-105_C_2048x2048.jpg


And the REX 30
rex_30_01-1-845x600.jpg
 
john61ct said:
Thanks for that, efficiency is good, but some sources suggest IPM is not the best for super high torque at **very low** RPM?

And here you go, I also prefer Google to the forum software

https://www.google.com/search?q=endless-sphere.com+IPM+OR+%22permanent+magnet%22
John

This is an interesting read and they mentioned IPM starting torque also. But I follow a number of builds on Elmoto forum of guys loving the QS mid drive motors (IPM, talked about in the thread below) and they get scary torque out and then some 30% more with field weakening so very good potential!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=97880&hilit=IPM

My problem is a need a smaller motor capable of about 5kw continuous and peaks over 10. The LMX or Lightning Rods 60mm IPM motor can do the peak but I'd like a bit more continuous and maybe a larger diameter. Not found something suitable yet but I'll keep the forum posted.

Cheers
Tyler

 
speedmd said:
Unfortunately most available are too wide for my preferences on a mid drive. Outrunners are not my first choice and You would need to work out the mount and sprocket side support but these did catch my eye. Perfect width, KV, and torque for a killer ride.
http://mymobilemms.com/OFFTHEGRIDWATER.CA/Brushless-Motor/20kw-238-50-Lightweight-Large-Brushless-Motor
238-50b.jpg

Another that looked interesting for mid drive.
https://www.kdedirect.com/collections/uas-multi-rotor-brushless-motors/products/kde10218xf-105
KDE10218XF-105_C_2048x2048.jpg


And the REX 30
rex_30_01-1-845x600.jpg
Those are interesting choices also, thanks.

Cheers
Tyler

 
One idea I was following years back was repurposing Prius Hybrid MG1 motors, the smaller generator motor in Toyota's hybrid transaxles. It occurred to me today that this might be ideal, but I'll have to check dimensions and possibilities of rehousing one for my build or other possible projects.

Cheers
Tyler

 
tylerwatts said:
The LMX or Lightning Rods 60mm IPM motor can do the peak but I'd like a bit more continuous and maybe a larger diameter.
His XL Big Block is too big?

 
Seems I'm about off with Prius motor, it's rather large:

8983ca6d3a9dbdb1bb0832471bd0311c.jpg


It would make a decent motorcycle motor perhaps but not for smaller vehicles.

Cheers
Tyler

 
john61ct said:
tylerwatts said:
The LMX or Lightning Rods 60mm IPM motor can do the peak but I'd like a bit more continuous and maybe a larger diameter.
His XL Big Block is too big?
No not too big, I want a bit bigger than the LR motor. Although I haven't seen a proper drawing for the motor.

Cheers
Tyler

 
There are several LR models.

XL is not out yet I believe.

That looked like plenty of oomph to me.

 
Yes I'm referring to the XL big block from LR. I saw a pic and it looks exactly like the LMX motor.

Cheers
Tyler

 
Any opinions on a starter generator repurposed as a small drive motor? I was wondering what these are like and whether any of them are IPM.

Seen some other small EV accessory motors are IPM. Need a bit more machining capabilities to rehouse them and probably build custom shafts etc. Might be another option. One benefit would be a bespoke mounting arrangement for my build making it package better I guess.

Cheers
Tyler

 
If you're worried about size, then MG1 is way too big. Kiwi and I are working on a Hyundai HSG project right now. Stock, the housing is about the size of a normal truck alternator, which is too big for my application. I'm building a housing for it now, and will report back after all this corona crap is over. Shows promise!
 
tylerwatts said:
Thanks for the feedback. Do you have a thread or info about it yet?

Cheers
Tyler

See this post: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91626&p=1532713#p1532713

The Sonata HSG IPM motor was tested by Oakridge Lab at up to 22kW output, even at 14k rpm it is good for 17kW and it does not need 600 phase amps. It does need ~160V to get that much power but will certainly perform well at 100V. I have a resolver to HALL solution working that enables the HSG to run on the Lebowski brain in sensored mode. Currently designing the PCB layout for the resolver -> HALL.
 
kiwifiat said:
tylerwatts said:
Thanks for the feedback. Do you have a thread or info about it yet?

Cheers
Tyler

See this post: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91626&p=1532713#p1532713

The Sonata HSG IPM motor was tested by Oakridge Lab at up to 22kW output, even at 14k rpm it is good for 17kW and it does not need 600 phase amps. It does need ~160V to get that much power but will certainly perform well at 100V. I have a resolver to HALL solution working that enables the HSG to run on the Lebowski brain in sensored mode. Currently designing the PCB layout for the resolver -> HALL.
Oh nice thanks. I'll check it out. Do you know make/model of the HSG? Looks similar to a VAG one, no Hyundai models in my part of the world currently. Looking like a promising option.

Cheers
Tyler


 
Well I found a bit out about the Audi HSG I found in eBay. It is 144mm stator diameter rated as 220a charging and 180a starting, 14v nominal. Here's a page from the OEM Valeo:

https://valeoservice.cld.bz/VS-Electrical-Systems-From-Stop-Start-to-Hybridization/37/

Interesting images on other pages too. Looks like an interesting opportunity. Appears like an IPM rotor and 3 phase too. But bug for my application though, would need a 160mm dia housing and my limit is ~120mm...

Cheers
Tyler

 
tylerwatts said:
kiwifiat said:
tylerwatts said:
Thanks for the feedback. Do you have a thread or info about it yet?

Cheers
Tyler

See this post: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91626&p=1532713#p1532713

The Sonata HSG IPM motor was tested by Oakridge Lab at up to 22kW output, even at 14k rpm it is good for 17kW and it does not need 600 phase amps. It does need ~160V to get that much power but will certainly perform well at 100V. I have a resolver to HALL solution working that enables the HSG to run on the Lebowski brain in sensored mode. Currently designing the PCB layout for the resolver -> HALL.
Oh nice thanks. I'll check it out. Do you know make/model of the HSG? Looks similar to a VAG one, no Hyundai models in my part of the world currently. Looking like a promising option.

Cheers
Tyler

Not sure if this was posted, but here's an interesting link on a blog where someone took one of those IPMs and used it in a go-kart to get 40+ lb feet of torque and all the instructions of how he did it (though it is WAY above my intelligence right now). MAD stuff. I wonder how much each of these "units" goes for if bought wholesale from Hyundai?

http://isopack.blogspot.com/p/electric-shifter-kart.html
 
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