No load motor, controller testing, runaway.

So, I am setting up a Votol EM-100 to understand parameter changes. I am connected to a medium sized PM brushless outrunner motor attached to an aluminum bracket with nothing connected to the output shaft. This configuration has worked fine with many controllers I have tested, however, with the Votol, after about half throttle, the motor took off. I had to quickly pull power to the controller for fear of the motor exploding. Last reading on the Display of the Votol GUI, was above 5900 RPM. The Motor is a thin 8" diameter custom with a wind of around 55KV. I was in medium speed but even with 200% field weakening (even if it was in high or S mode), I do not believe I could get the motor to run north of 5000 RPM while on the 49VDC battery I was running.

I believe I remember motor runaway with no load before, just never observed it from testing numerous controllers (Yuyang King, Kelly, Greentime, countless generics). I am interested to understand why this might be happening and if anyone else has observed this. After a quick underwear change, I am hopeful this would not happen when in a lightweight vehicle or desending down a hill. Typically, you release the throttle (Hall effect type), I would prefer the motor to spin down and stop accelerating.

Thanks,

Russ

Maybe put a propeller on it so there's a load while you test. Better yet, use a real traction motor instead of an aero motor.

yep happened to me while bench testing em100 with QS motor 120 70h, no load. good thing it's an IPM so no magnets flew. motor went crazy and wouldn't stop. had to cut power

you need to dial back the flux weakening settings to prevent this from happening

I will try the field weakening parameters to see what can be done to improve it. I thought it was simply a no load issue, just not sure why it never happened with all the other controllers. I would guess that most only have slight field weakening, while the Votol supports up to 200%.

For reference, I am using the motor attached, which will be a great traction motor. A propeller for this motor would be over 3 feet in diameter.

Basically, I converted this 3000W generator motor to a PMDC sensored brushless motor. The torque is over 60 ft lbs.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-Power-Hydro-PMA-Generator-ME1603-1200-2500-Watts-24-48-VAC-Motenery-Inc/202756623373?hash=item2f353c8c0d:g:AZUAAOSw2XFUiFqF

Interesting. What was that motor for originally?

The motor started its life as a Motenergy ME1016 3000W generator. It was made quite robust, including the 7/8" shaft. As a generator, you would put on a few Pelton water wheels which would produce the needed RPM to produce the AC voltage. As a traction motor, I needed to add hall sensors to it. I determined the magnetic timing and placed the halls 20 degrees apart, which fortunately, was the same as the stator segment spacing. Works like a charm and has a 55KV wind and from early testing can produce over 60 ft lbs of torque at 48VDC.

Cool. That's a pretty fast wind for wheeled things. But there's plenty of torque to drive wheels, I guess.

Just looked it up. Wow is that cheap for what it is.

There is a way to adjust in the hidden menu to prevent runaway. I dont remember how, I havent had to adjust myself. The info is in the votol thread somewhere. I think it is in the first half, but not really in the beginning.
You can also set hdc to limit max rpm.

FWIW, I doubt that any of the other controllers you listed are FOC, and thus don't have field weakening either. So if the new controller does have FW, and it's turned on, then you'd need to investigate how it operates in relation to the settings it allows you to change, and how they are set now. It might only activate FW once past a certain speed, for instance.


Regarding "runaway", true no-load runaway would be possible with something like a series-wound brushed motor, as there is no feedback from motor to controller to allow it to actually control it's speed.

With any FOC system, there is inherent feedback from the motor to the controller (even without hall sensors), so it is never really runaway, out of control, it is just that the controller isn't limiting the RPM because it isn't being told to (not setup to do so, for instance), or it isn't designed to (no setting for that), or it isn't correctly setup to interpret the feedback it's getting from the motor, etc.

@amberwolf:You should read the Votol thread
This controller currently seems to have undergone an update that rendered the program incomprehensible. Any users with Votol issues should be directed to https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=95969.

I recommend to stay away from the Votols at this time (if it doesn’t come paired with the motor), at least until program is updated.

larsb said:

@amberwolf:You should read the Votol thread

Click to expand...

Iv'e tried to keep up with it over time, but they seem to have various ways of their controllers working, possibly depending on model, and different software that looks and appears to work differently, so I can't tell what they can or can't do anymore, or how they work.

That’s the problem, me neither. The program started out following the manual back when i got my first votol but now it’s not even following the text on the setting screens. Users don’t know which revision of this they got.. it’s a total mayhem.

I have recently setup and configured the Votol, specifically the EM-100. The software is V3 and the controller is V3 as well. As far as my testing has gone, I have managed to figure almost everything out and it is working well. I have read the 50+ page Votol thread carefully, as that is where I found out how to setup the Low Brake and the throttle down Regen. I even figured out some really cool features like the Moving Vehicle and Field Weakening optimization. The only thing that is preventing this from being one of the best "bang for the buck" controllers is the run away condition. I have turned off Field Weakening, run in low speed (once again without field weakening), and tried to recover from a run-away condition. If I slowly roll into the throttle, I can reach 50% speed without an run-away. If I give it anything more than 1/4" throttle quickly, off it goes. Unfortunately, the Brake and Throttle off will not stop it, you have to kill power to the E-Lock or battery. Also, the speed limits and Hill Assist do not stop it either.

Following the Votol thread, it is clear many bugs and functions have been fixed or discovered. I have even considered a new thread to rewrite the Manual in simple to understand terms. I have extensive experience in several programmable controllers like Kelly, Yuyang King, and Greentime. The Votol is the only controller with the run-away issue. I believe it may go into run-away simply going downhill or if your tire leaves the ground for .5 seconds or more. I nuked a 2500W inrunner motor today trying to dial in the correct hall timing.

j bjork said:

There is a way to adjust in the hidden menu to prevent runaway. I dont remember how, I havent had to adjust myself. The info is in the votol thread somewhere. I think it is in the first half, but not really in the beginning.
You can also set hdc to limit max rpm.

Click to expand...

I read through it carefully but there is a lot of bad and old information in it. I have tried nearly everything to prevent the run-away, and have not been successful. Nothing works, at least through the observable/programmable fields that I can determine.

larsb said:

That’s the problem, me neither. The program started out following the manual back when i got my first votol but now it’s not even following the text on the setting screens. Users don’t know which revision of this they got.. it’s a total mayhem.

Click to expand...

Agreed, however, I think there has been some progress in addressing some config issues and bugs. I think the thread is too large to be useful and should have a new sticky that pulls out some nuggets of wisdom from the bulk (latest program, manual, Low Brake, Throttle off regen, Field Weakening observations, Hall timing, ect).

I have a new controller and software and I am really close. I can easily use the controller for my vehicles but a run-away scares me. I live in the hills and a steep downhill could be an issue. If you were running a hub motor and had the tire off the ground, it will destroy the tire and potentially the rim/motor and bike.

True, every thread derails after five pages or so.

If you don’t have control of the motor then you’re not close, the other parts are easy and could be disregarded if you don’t get them to work. Seems there is at least some new data on the new controllers in the thread now, the old data probably won’t help you since program and function is not what it was back then.