mid motor with 7 hall wires and strange phase wires ?

Sparfuchs

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Hello EV friends,

I've a problem to connect my motor to my controller. The motor is a Torcman NT765-25 CPD100.25 and the controller is a kelly kbs48101x.
Does someone have an idea ?
IMG_20210504_174712.jpgIMG_20210504_175001.jpg
 
The first picture is just the controller side.

The second picture shows three phase wires. Do you mean strange because two are orange and one black -- no correlation to the green, blue, yellow of the controller? There is no standard for wire color anyway, but the strange orange and black use may be relevant to the next point...

For the 7-wire cable, the motor is offered with 3x Halls and NTC temp sensor, which require +5VDC and a shared ground, so that's normally 6 pins. Maybe they're running the Halls and NTC on separate grounds? That would give 7 wires.
However, the cable is shielded when it certainly doesn't need to be -- in fact, there's nothing to connect the shield to. So maybe they just used whatever extra cable they had laying around, like the orange and black phase wires, and it just happened to have 7 wires?

Link to manual is broken -- correct link and attached
 

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fatty said:
The first picture is just the controller side.

The second picture shows three phase wires. Do you mean strange because two are orange and one black -- no correlation to the green, blue, yellow of the controller? There is no standard for wire color anyway, but the strange orange and black use may be relevant to the next point...

For the 7-wire cable, the motor is offered with 3x Halls and NTC temp sensor, which require +5VDC and a shared ground, so that's normally 6 pins. Maybe they're running the Halls and NTC on separate grounds? That would give 7 wires.
However, the cable is shielded when it certainly doesn't need to be -- in fact, there's nothing to connect the shield to. So maybe they just used whatever extra cable they had laying around, like the orange and black phase wires, and it just happened to have 7 wires?

Link to manual is broken -- correct link and attached

Thanks a lot for your replie fatty,
yes, the two red and the black phase wire confuses me a lot because i don't know how to connect them to my controllers blue, green, yellow wires. Or how to start trying around without harming the motor ?

And i know that there are usually 3 halls, one +5v, one GND and sometimes a temp wire. But I've no idea how to find out what colors need to bee connected. I would assume that the green,blue and yellow wire are the 3 halls and might need to be connected to the same colors on the controller. The white one might be for the temperature. But I've no idea what could be +5V and GND because the colors are unusual.

Is there a way to find out ?
 
I found a picture of the sensor board the motor uses. Maybe it helps to solve my problem ?hall.JPG
 
Sparfuchs said:
But I've no idea how to find out what colors need to bee connected.
Have you asked the manufacturer and seller? What did they say?
 
Kelly has auto-identification it means if you tick the option in the config program then when you will power again the controller it will find the right hall combination and save it (and I suggest you do that, even on a motor with obvious phase colors + hall colors the motor wasnt running well untill I did that auto-identification thing).

To find the right +5v and gnd you Can apply a voltage bellow 20v (5v ideally) on the supposed positive wire, same for gnd, and mesure the voltage between one Hall wire and gnd. If when you turn the motor by hand you get something around 5v, then you've found the right + and gnd. This hall testing procedure might help you :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ebikes.ca/documents/HallSensorTestingFinal.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlz83GzrjwAhWB7KQKHXKLAwsQFjAFegQIERAC&usg=AOvVaw1LL-cjRRiFyPHCSYI05SE-
 
atkforever said:
Kelly has auto-identification it means if you tick the option in the config program then when you will power again the controller it will find the right hall combination and save it (and I suggest you do that, even on a motor with obvious phase colors + hall colors the motor wasnt running well untill I did that auto-identification thing).

To find the right +5v and gnd you Can apply a voltage bellow 20v (5v ideally) on the supposed positive wire, same for gnd, and mesure the voltage between one Hall wire and gnd. If when you turn the motor by hand you get something around 5v, then you've found the right + and gnd. This hall testing procedure might help you :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ebikes.ca/documents/HallSensorTestingFinal.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjlz83GzrjwAhWB7KQKHXKLAwsQFjAFegQIERAC&usg=AOvVaw1LL-cjRRiFyPHCSYI05SE-
Thanks a lot for your helpful reply atkforever,
i'll definitely try the auto-identification as soon as i know what wires are for hall.
My problem is that there are 7 wires and not one of them where i know what it does.
So where and how should i start testing ?
Should i just take randomly one of the seven wires and connect it to a +5v source and then check the other six wires if one of them is gnd and if not, try the +5V on an other of the wires an so on ? I'm a bit afraid that i might harm a sensor or anything else if i try the +5V on a wrong wire. Is that possible or could i try the +5 on each of the seven wires without harming something ?
 
So as said above there might be 2 ground wires so I'd check continuity between every wires. If you find 2 wires that have continuity, they might be GND, but this could also be 2 +5v wires...

I don't know if hall sensors are sensitive to reverse polarity. If I were you, I'd open the motor and you will be cleary able to identify the wires. Good luck ;)
 
atkforever said:
So as said above there might be 2 ground wires so I'd check continuity between every wires. If you find 2 wires that have continuity, they might be GND, but this could also be 2 +5v wires...
If the motor is running separate grounds, they're going to be, well, intentionally separate -- they won't have continuity.
 
fatty said:
atkforever said:
So as said above there might be 2 ground wires so I'd check continuity between every wires. If you find 2 wires that have continuity, they might be GND, but this could also be 2 +5v wires...
If the motor is running separate grounds, they're going to be, well, intentionally separate -- they won't have continuity.

That's not 100% predictable, GND could have been splitted because it needs to be on two plugs.
 
Sparfuchs said:
I found a picture of the sensor board the motor uses. Maybe it helps to solve my problem ?hall.JPG
Looks like you can trace the wires through the PCB to the Hall sensors.
What do the little blue wires on the right go to -- temp sensor? If so, trace continuity back to the main harness. Everything that doesn't go to the little blue wires should be Hall sensors.
 
atkforever said:
That's not 100% predictable, GND could have been splitted because it needs to be on two plugs.
Split to bridged in the PCB back to split? Seems unlikely, but I guess anything is possible.. But that would mean testing continuity isn't much help.
 
I managed to get a wiring "diagram" that might work. At least i know now that the pink one is +V and the brown one is gnd. If i measure between +V and gnd i get about 5V BUT if i measure between gnd and the halls i get on two of them about 12V and on one 0V. If i spin the motor another one has 0V and the other two 12v. Is that normal ? And how is it even possible that i get 5V in and 12V out ?

If i pull the throttle with the shown connection the motor spins very slow and noisy but if it starts at the wrong position it does not move at all.

I also tried many different connections of the phase wire but want to make the automatic hall finder thing first bevore i try anything else. But i need to figure out how to get or build a adapter go my pc.Screenshot_2021-05-16-17-12-53-733.jpg
 
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