Geared Hub Motor + Thru axle ?

mathisbl

100 µW
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
7
Why isn't there any geared hub motor updated to the thru axle standard yet? Are there any engineering complications to make it possible? Please anyone, enlighten me on the subject. I literally cannot find anything on the matter anywhere.
 
markz said:
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html

This is a DIRECT DRIVE front hub motor. I'm talking about GEARED hub motors.
 
Thats the only one for thru-axle until I just found the one I linked below.

This is interesting - https://www.electricbikeoutfitters.com/recumbentthroughaxleadapter.aspx

Crystalyte thru-axle DD kit 769,00 €
https://ozo-electric.com/en/rear-wheel-hub-motor-kits/10788-thru-axle-motor-kit-for-mtb-12x142mm-and-12x148mm.html
- The Thru axle motor exists in two versions: the TC2540 1000W motor and the TC3080 2000W motor
- Electric conversion kit for all moutain bikes with rear through axle motor 12x142mm and 12x148mm.
- Direct drive motor, with Aluminium machine casted stator and 30mm magnets on rotor.


mathisbl said:
markz said:
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/all-axle-hub-motor.html

This is a DIRECT DRIVE front hub motor. I'm talking about GEARED hub motors.
 
Through axle isn't a standard; it's a fad.

Remember what happened to 20mm through axles? Yours are next. Regular slotted dropouts will live on, though.
 
Chalo said:
Through axle isn't a standard; it's a fad.

Remember what happened to 20mm through axles? Yours are next. Regular slotted dropouts will live on, though.

I remember what happened to 20mm through axles... They were absolutely brilliant, the only thing of any use on DH bikes and are still ubiquitous.
 
I hope through-axles work out, because a hubmotor is much more complex and expensive than a pedal-only bicycle hub, and it would be nice to be able to swap-out just the axle.

It would be useful whether the axle broke, or the owner wanted to change the axle type.

There is no technical reason that a geared hub cannot be produced, but I don't think anyone is doing that yet.
 
mxlemming said:
Chalo said:
Through axle isn't a standard; it's a fad.

Remember what happened to 20mm through axles? Yours are next. Regular slotted dropouts will live on, though.

I remember what happened to 20mm through axles... They were absolutely brilliant, the only thing of any use on DH bikes and are still ubiquitous.

Well, the components market doesn't live in the same world you imagine. My parts distributor of first resort lists two 20mm hubs (one model in stock right now) and zero 20mm axle forks.

Ubiquitous isn't the right word for that.
 
Chalo said:
mxlemming said:
Chalo said:
Through axle isn't a standard; it's a fad.

Remember what happened to 20mm through axles? Yours are next. Regular slotted dropouts will live on, though.

I remember what happened to 20mm through axles... They were absolutely brilliant, the only thing of any use on DH bikes and are still ubiquitous.

Well, the components market doesn't live in the same world you imagine. My parts distributor of first resort lists two 20mm hubs (one model in stock right now) and zero 20mm axle forks.

Ubiquitous isn't the right word for that.

You are literally off your rocker. If i go on any mountain bike distributor i can buy rockshox (lyrik, boxxer, domain...) Marzocchi (888, 66, 55) fox (36,40) manitou (whatever they're all crap) DVO... The list goes on...

As for 20mm hubs, there are hundreds. Hope, sram, shimano, countless small companies and an increasing number of Chinese ones.

I'm in an xc bike park right now... I've only seen bikes with 15mm through front.

When I'm downhill riding in France, the only spares you can buy in the ski resorts are 20mm. There are tens of thousands of downhill cyclists going round the European resorts at any time and I'd imagine Canada and USA have as many again.

I think you need to try a different first resort distributor.
 
mxlemming said:
I think you need to try a different first resort distributor.

No, I don't. I sell and service bicycles, and my distributors have parts for bicycles. I don't need to branch out into other things, let alone things that resist attempts to service them.
 
Chalo said:
mxlemming said:
I think you need to try a different first resort distributor.

No, I don't. I sell and service bicycles, and my distributors have parts for bicycles. I don't need to branch out into other things, let alone things that resist attempts to service them.

Fair enough. Kudos for making a living selling un-exciting things. For us weirdos that ride for fun, there are plenty of sources of 20mm hubs, disc brakes and through axle frames and forks
 
mathisbl said:
Why isn't there any geared hub motor updated to the thru axle standard yet? Are there any engineering complications to make it possible? Please anyone, enlighten me on the subject. I literally cannot find anything on the matter anywhere.

Not intending snark, but there must be space for a 12 - 20 mm hole bored through the axle axis. Motors designed for solid 10mm axles or hollow ones for a QR skewer must be redesigned. Anything larger than a 10mm axle is the same, but worse.

Rohloff does not sell hubs that work with thru-axles - they were designed before those were first popularised. Rohloff instead sells adaptors that screw in from each side so that they don't need to bore a hole through the guts of their hub.

The thru-axle standard means a 12 - 20 mm space through the centre of the hub belongs to something else (the axle) and it's off-limits to the hub.

Also, a motor requires a way to transmit torque to the frame, and the standard inexpensive solution was to use the drop-out slot in some manner - and thru-axles do not have those. In fact, the standard way is to transmit the torque THROUGH the axle, but with a thru-axle that is off limits to the hub - you can't both screw a thru-axle through a bore in the axis of a hub and also attach the hub to it to transmit torque - the axle must be free to rotate as it is installed, and it can't be torqued by the hub as that will loosen it.

Beyond that, it is an economic and business question. Electric motors for bicycles are only now becoming mainstream, hubs by themselves are more the province of aftermarket do-it-yourself types, and that's not a huge market.

Ground-up integrated ebikes are mainstream, not DIY kits. That's where the big money is. All those people think they want motors at the cranks, which lets them use all the gears, and lets the manufacturer use a smaller, legal motor wattage - and some ebike laws require pedalling, which further limits the market for independent motors.
 
Thank you so much for your reply! Maybe going Rohloff's way would be a great solution then. I'll look into this thanks!
 
mathisbl said:
Thank you so much for your reply! Maybe going Rohloff's way would be a great solution then. I'll look into this thanks!

My apologies for assuming you had heard of Rohloff hubs (they are somewhat famous). The Rohloff hub is an internal gear hub, not a motor. Expensive, excellent, wide range, durable. But not a motor. It's an example of the problem of changing an old design to this new approach.

If you are actually interested in an internal gear hub, Rohloff may be the way to go, and Kindernay is a new equivalent which is designed for thru-axles.

I know of no geared motors that work with thru-axles. Grin Technologies sells their own All-Axle and stocks another which works with thru-axles, both are Direct Drive.
 
no no I totally know what the Rohloff's are, I meant look into their design solution for thru axle compatibility haha.
 
mxlemming said:
qwerkus said:

This is what the world needs, just 500 euro not 1500 euro. And 4x the power output. But being maxon, there's a good chance of it actually working for a few years whereas with Ali express parts I guess you roll a dice (only on my 4th BMS now...)

I think maxon is dropping that hub in favor of integrated mid drive systems. Quite Boring in fact but no surprise given the hefty price tag. A couple of yars ago, I petitioned them to work on a powerful geared hub for the cargo market, since that's the last niche where you can make money with hubs in europe. They seemed interested at first, but nothing came out. With Heinzman dropping its rn111 cargo model, the future of high quality hubs has definitely left europe (and the us!).

Some pics of the maxondrive hub. It's in inrunner. Notice the steel gears supposedly quiet thanks to tight manufacturing tolerances. The controller sits inside the hub too (brake side).

Anwendung-Fact-Bikedrive-PICTURE.jpgMaxon-Pedelec-Antrieb_F01.jpg
 
mathisbl said:
It's cool and all, but you can't buy that without going to a retrofitting dealer in Europe. :(

Sure you can. Just send a message to info@maxonbikedrive.com and ask them for a retailer that ships to your place.
 
mathisbl said:
mxlemming said:
qwerkus said:

This is what the world needs, just 500 euro not 1500 euro. And 4x the power output. But being maxon, there's a good chance of it actually working for a few years whereas with Ali express parts I guess you roll a dice (only on my 4th BMS now...)

You want quality (i.e. Maxon) but 1500 Euro's is too much money. You pay 200 Euro's for an Aliexpress hub and you complain about the BMS breaking (20 Euro's). Hey, why don't you and start an ebike company and manufacture quality ebike hubs for everyone that never breaks for 500 Euros? Judging by the growth of this segment, you can't fail.
You should be thankful China is manufacturing inexpensive ebike hubs otherwise you would be limited to a regular push bike because you're obviously too cheap to pony up the 1500 or more for a Maxon setup.
 
Chalo said:
Through axle isn't a standard; it's a fad.
I recall similar comments on the ISIS ("There are NO ADVANTAGES for an ISIS over a properly maintained square taper!") and the 9 and higher speed cassettes ("No one needs more than 8 speeds on any sane drivetrain - and 9 speed chains are too fragile to be viable.")
 
JackFlorey said:
Chalo said:
Through axle isn't a standard; it's a fad.
I recall similar comments on the ISIS ("There are NO ADVANTAGES for an ISIS over a properly maintained square taper!")

Good example! ISIS bit the dust in a huge way, because it failed to balance the integrity of the spindle-to-crank interface against the integrity of the spindle bearings. The only folks still using it do so because both the standard itself and the design engineering are free (not because they're any good).

Now tell me how I was wrong about Campy Synchro, Scott Drop-Ins, and ISM "dick tweezer" saddles.

Manufacturers of wanker through-axles can't even settle on what diameters or widths they want to use. That's a great sign that this foolishness will fizzle out sooner or later.
 
Chalo said:
JackFlorey said:
Chalo said:
Through axle isn't a standard; it's a fad.
I recall similar comments on the ISIS ("There are NO ADVANTAGES for an ISIS over a properly maintained square taper!")

Good example! ISIS bit the dust in a huge way, because it failed to balance the integrity of the spindle-to-crank interface against the integrity of the spindle bearings. The only folks still using it do so because both the standard itself and the design engineering are free (not because they're any good).

Now tell me how I was wrong about Campy Synchro, Scott Drop-Ins, and ISM "dick tweezer" saddles.

Manufacturers of wanker through-axles can't even settle on what diameters or widths they want to use. That's a great sign that this foolishness will fizzle out sooner or later.
I do agree, ISIS sucked. I snapped 3 of those axles and wore the bearings out on others. As to whether they were worse than square taper... I must have rounded off 5 square taper cranksets.

The Shimano Hollowtech 2 with the external BB cups, that became a standard and it was beautiful. So much stiffer, cross compatible with loads of manufacturers...

I'm looking to swap my ebike with belt drive to 12mm rear axle because it'll be less wafty. There are a whole line of special 10USD Chinese adapters that convert the various axle standards to 10mm QR. How can you lose.
 
manray said:
mathisbl said:
mxlemming said:
qwerkus said:

This is what the world needs, just 500 euro not 1500 euro. And 4x the power output. But being maxon, there's a good chance of it actually working for a few years whereas with Ali express parts I guess you roll a dice (only on my 4th BMS now...)

You want quality (i.e. Maxon) but 1500 Euro's is too much money. You pay 200 Euro's for an Aliexpress hub and you complain about the BMS breaking (20 Euro's). Hey, why don't you and start an ebike company and manufacture quality ebike hubs for everyone that never breaks for 500 Euros? Judging by the growth of this segment, you can't fail.
You should be thankful China is manufacturing inexpensive ebike hubs otherwise you would be limited to a regular push bike because you're obviously too cheap to pony up the 1500 or more for a Maxon setup.


Have you read any of my engineering threads? I have built:
FOC ESC (layed out PCB and written code for it)
RC-outrunner belt drive ebike
BMS for 20s and about 150A (layed out PCB for it).

Am I going to start my own company selling these? No, because to do so requires a capital investment into a factory, and selling the ESC/BMS will make a pitance compared to the ongoing hassle of dealing with customers.

There is a vast chasm between 200$ hub and 1500$ hub, that's nearly an order of magnitude. The 200$ hubs are heavy as hell (actually, the quality on HUBS is quite passable even on the cheapest ones in my limited experience), the 1500$ Maxon hub will take barely the power desired for a DH bike and is retardedly expensive. I really don't see the complication in my thoughts, I want an MXUS 3k turbo with a 12mm through axle and a weight loss plan, and would gladly pay 500-600$ for it. I would also gladly pay 500-600$ for a hub like the Maxon to put on an XC bike, but 1500 is just ridiculous.

The BMS is a safety issue, they should not be sold. We have safety standards in the EU, USA etc, and lithium battery controllers that catch fire in normal use are not acceptable. Purchase was via Amazon, not Aliexpress. It's not currently clear to me where one buys a decent BMS off the shelf; hence I have designed my own.
 
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