FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

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john61ct   100 GW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 04 2021 2:49am

This is not a tinkerer's project, but a new version of a commercial product being sold with a stated ampacity higher than the last version.

I do not see any basis for saying that claim is fraudulent and that the new release has the same limitation as the previous one.

If they sell it specifically handling 20S voltages that should IMO be trusted, unless members' hands-on experience indicates otherwise.

mxlemming   10 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by mxlemming » Nov 04 2021 8:01am

Johnlee wrote:
Nov 04 2021 2:18am
john61ct wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:16pm
Sorry, but does that project have any relationship to this Flipsky product rated at a max of 84V?

In other words, what was the relevant message you wanted to convey in that post about your 75V limited project?
Flipsky product max 84v is also based on this project(75v 300A vesc), so what I mean is running 84v or 20s may not be safe enough. as the risk is explained in above.
You're not doing yourself any favors here John. Read the rest of the thread. It's not based on 75300 it's based on 100250. It uses low side shunts and everything is appropriately rated for 20s operation.
Hold my beer while I divide by zero :flame:

MorbidlyObeseKoala   100 W

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by MorbidlyObeseKoala » Nov 04 2021 2:24pm

This is a newb question since I havent delved much into detailed specs between motors and controllers.

Can a vesc be used with any sensored motor? Did they just start life as preferred for high RPM motors and have evolved to handle higher power and can be used with bigger toys?

The thing that threw me off was the video on the Flipsky product page where they show a 350 watt scooter. Seems pretty low power for an item advertised as able to handle a few kW power situation...

mxlemming   10 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by mxlemming » Nov 04 2021 3:57pm

MorbidlyObeseKoala wrote:
Nov 04 2021 2:24pm
This is a newb question since I havent delved much into detailed specs between motors and controllers.

Can a vesc be used with any sensored motor? Did they just start life as preferred for high RPM motors and have evolved to handle higher power and can be used with bigger toys?

The thing that threw me off was the video on the Flipsky product page where they show a 350 watt scooter. Seems pretty low power for an item advertised as able to handle a few kW power situation...
VESC can be used with pretty much any motor, to varying degrees of success.

Scooter motors, hub motors, large RC motors... all work OK. Can be run with sensors or sensorless.
Hold my beer while I divide by zero :flame:

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 04 2021 4:31pm

So long as space and weight are not an issue, neither is using a controller capable of handling 8kW with a motor pulling a small fraction of that power.

Especially using true FOC technology, which has great efficiency advantages over old-school "just sinusoidal commutation"much less (now obsolete?) "trap" trapezoidal controllers

Johnlee   1 mW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by Johnlee » Nov 04 2021 9:28pm

mxlemming wrote:
Nov 04 2021 8:01am
Johnlee wrote:
Nov 04 2021 2:18am
john61ct wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:16pm
Sorry, but does that project have any relationship to this Flipsky product rated at a max of 84V?

In other words, what was the relevant message you wanted to convey in that post about your 75V limited project?
Flipsky product max 84v is also based on this project(75v 300A vesc), so what I mean is running 84v or 20s may not be safe enough. as the risk is explained in above.
You're not doing yourself any favors here John. Read the rest of the thread. It's not based on 75300 it's based on 100250. It uses low side shunts and everything is appropriately rated for 20s operation.
Oh,'m sorry, my point is if 75V300A based ESC using INA240, then the ESC shall not work beyond 80V safely, even with 100V and higher MOSFET. The limit is on INA240 not MOSFET. Although we cant test beyond 80V, but we cann't claim it is safe beyond 80V.I think we shall keep our respect to the recommended operating conditions. VESC orginal 100V250A project, is using low side shunt, voltage upon shunt resistor is close to ground, it's don't need to worry the INA240's voltage limit any more, low side shunt has this advantage.

BalorNG   1 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by BalorNG » Nov 05 2021 3:53pm

john61ct wrote:
Nov 04 2021 4:31pm
So long as space and weight are not an issue, neither is using a controller capable of handling 8kW with a motor pulling a small fraction of that power.

Especially using true FOC technology, which has great efficiency advantages over old-school "just sinusoidal commutation"much less (now obsolete?) "trap" trapezoidal controllers
I think the greatest advantage compared to other vescs is actually 'ebike' design with built in splashproof enclosure.
Even using them for a fraction of rated power is perfectly fine, provided you want other VESC features that are extremely hard to get in this price bracket (or at all) - great software, bluetooth compability and most importantly ability of UART communication and making the controller jump though all kinds of hoops on command (I think only ODRIVE is better in that regard, and it certainly not very ebike-friendly otherwise!).
I you simply want to use it on a throttle e-bike, commanding a typical hub motor, this is likely an overkill indeed.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 06 2021 10:15am

But my point is, who cares about "overkill" in this scenario you're getting those benefits at a

cheap price

low weight and volume

with no downside

right?

MorbidlyObeseKoala   100 W

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by MorbidlyObeseKoala » Nov 08 2021 1:44pm

This just seems so impossibly small for the power rating they are giving it. Even if you were to de-rate it and leave another 20% margin of safety and run this continuously at 80% of its stated rating, you are pushing 6.4kW in the size of a computer mouse? I think the competition is a Kelly controller but theirs is larger and more expensive.

Is this a typical power for the size? Am I just falling behind what's on the market already? Haha

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 08 2021 2:23pm

FOC in general is indeed more efficient

and VESC is said to be the best FOC implementation

and miniaturisation is thank dog a continuing trend across the board with electronics.

Maybe at high amps extra heat sinking is needed.

Welcome to the future I guess

or maybe it's just a scam 8-)

BalorNG   1 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by BalorNG » Nov 11 2021 11:24am

I'm pretty reasonably sure that 100A rated current is NOT when it is a frame bag, but bolted to a heat-conductive surface (radiator).
Likely simply having it dangle outside might no do, unless there is good cooling around it.
The FETS have more resistance than 60v vesc, there is no free lunch.
OTOH, what would be a countinous current rating of a '50a' rated flipsky/maytech vesc WITH an enclosure? Did anyone do any tests? Likely esk8er croud did...
But than attaching the heatsink *on top* of the fets is not the best idea either, current implementation should work much better for FET cooling.

qwerkus   10 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by qwerkus » Nov 17 2021 1:00pm

john61ct wrote:
Nov 08 2021 2:23pm
and VESC is said to be the best FOC implementation
Not true. Check out mxlemming or other controller build. vesc foc imprlementation is ONE possibility optimized for e-sk8tes, there are many scenarios where you can actually get a more efficient system. In my opinion the code has becomes bloated a needs a rewamp with modularization in mind.
For an instance, I have ran a vesc controller and a cheap lishui controller - both with foc implementation - on a test bench plugged to a 500w geared hub. The lishui controller used less power to achieve the same speed. Could be many reasons, but worth noticing.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 17 2021 1:33pm

Excellent, thanks.

Tagged to the "True FOC Definition" thread for reference

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105139&p=1687338#p1687338

mxlemming   10 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by mxlemming » Nov 17 2021 4:12pm

john61ct wrote:
Nov 17 2021 1:33pm
Excellent, thanks.

Tagged to the "True FOC Definition" thread for reference

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105139&p=1687338#p1687338
And see my response directly below it.

For anyone reading this thread, right now VESC remains preferable to my firmware for pretty much all cases. The exception is likely if you want to have a go at fiddling with FOC yourself from a more understandable and vastly more portable start point (I built mine upwards from ST cube mx configuration files which makes porting to another controller an afternoons work rather than a virtual impossibility, and also... Windows not Linux...)

VESC has issues (my pet peeve is it's tendency towards self destruction but I think that's due to improve substantially with the newest release) but is slowly improving and the peripheral environment is one of the best.
Hold my beer while I divide by zero :flame:

BalorNG   1 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by BalorNG » Nov 18 2021 8:18am

mxlemming wrote:
Nov 17 2021 4:12pm
john61ct wrote:
Nov 17 2021 1:33pm
Excellent, thanks.

Tagged to the "True FOC Definition" thread for reference

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105139&p=1687338#p1687338
And see my response directly below it.

For anyone reading this thread, right now VESC remains preferable to my firmware for pretty much all cases. The exception is likely if you want to have a go at fiddling with FOC yourself from a more understandable and vastly more portable start point (I built mine upwards from ST cube mx configuration files which makes porting to another controller an afternoons work rather than a virtual impossibility, and also... Windows not Linux...)

VESC has issues (my pet peeve is it's tendency towards self destruction but I think that's due to improve substantially with the newest release) but is slowly improving and the peripheral environment is one of the best.
Yup, like an arduino library even a total noob can understand and make controller jump though all sorts of hoops :)

badgineer   10 W

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by badgineer » Nov 20 2021 3:56pm

Hello.

Has anybody managed to update firmware? I'm really curious if it works or if there really is something stopping this (other than the appropriate cable not being outside)

Br,
Bad-gineer, bored-gineer.

atkforever   10 W

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by atkforever » Nov 23 2021 11:37am

For the people beeing skeptical about the 20S capability here is a live test @20S, the guy allows 100amps peaks

https://youtu.be/8uSaJf4_daA

What I find sad is that due to relation between motor amps vs battery amps, if a 100A limitation is set battery current remains bellow 50Amps when you are not at 100% duty cycle (which I never hold for few seconds on an ebike due to obvious safety reasons)

MorbidlyObeseKoala   100 W

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by MorbidlyObeseKoala » Nov 23 2021 2:46pm

Ok so their 100A limit is the motor side and half that on the battery side. That is a little closer to what I would anticipate from that size.

Does Kelly rate their controllers on the peak motor or peak battery side? Does anyone know?

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 23 2021 3:04pm

Just because that is the user imposed limit in a video, does not mean their power claim of 100 battery amps is any more "false" than other vendor ratings.

We all know such ratings should not be approached IRL unless testing to destruction

80% is the closest IMO when reliability & longevity are goals, and that is with trusted honest vendors.

Woly   10 mW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by Woly » Nov 23 2021 5:00pm

They don't make any claims about battery current or motor current. Just 100A continuous current and 120 amps max current.

Note it is on sale for 84 USD and the moment.

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 23 2021 5:05pm

ahem
atkforever wrote:I've contacted them asking if 100amps would stand for phase amps, they replied it's battery current.

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by atkforever » Nov 24 2021 3:50am

MorbidlyObeseKoala wrote:
Nov 23 2021 2:46pm
Does Kelly rate their controllers on the peak motor or peak battery side? Does anyone know?
They are rated on max Peak motor, at least for kbs-x series which is the closest to this flipsky in termes of size.
john61ct wrote:
Nov 23 2021 5:05pm
ahem
John Im not saying they gave Fake specs or so, they have been 100% transparent to all asking them. But for a newbie Reading 100amp max DC amp can lead to understand motor amps Can be set near 250amps.

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by MorbidlyObeseKoala » Nov 24 2021 1:43pm

john61ct wrote:
Nov 23 2021 5:05pm
ahem
atkforever wrote:I've contacted them asking if 100amps would stand for phase amps, they replied it's battery current.
Lol missed that at the beginning :oops:

Well I suppose the only thing this is potentially missing is waterproofing but at that price I can get some tupperware and customize it for the wires.

I think I'm going to have to get one of these, they are just too tempting at that price, power level and footprint. I'll just need the time to put my battery together and then :bigthumb:

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by john61ct » Nov 24 2021 10:41pm


atkforever wrote:John Im not saying they gave Fake specs or so, they have been 100% transparent to all asking them. But for a newbie Reading 100amp max DC amp can lead to understand motor amps Can be set near 250amps.
That is not of concern to me personally.

It would be great for the actual phase amps limit to be specified, but more likely it needs to determined on a case by case basis using temp sensors.


mxlemming   10 kW

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Re: FLIPSKY new 20s 100A tiny controller (vesc based)

Post by mxlemming » Nov 25 2021 8:43am

Phase amps is the correct way to rate a controller.

With 100 battery amps you can generate pretty much any amount of phase amps. Currently on my test bench I'm generating 270 phase amps from 17A battery at 24V.

Battery amps has no useful meaning.
Hold my beer while I divide by zero :flame:

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