48v Starter / generator motors (BSG alternator)

wiredsim

10 W
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
74
Location
Holland, MI
I’ve been thinking about using an alternator as a motor for a go-cart for a number of years. There have been a lot of recent projects, including a few popular videos on YouTube.

However I started looking into higher voltage alternators and eventually into the category of “alternators” for mild hybrids, which use a 48v battery for stop start and power assist. I just got a heck of a deal on a Ram truck unit for their V6 models and will likely be trying to use this for either a go-cart or an electric riding lawnmower.

I’ve found some interesting details. The unit I got looks to be made by Continental, is liquid cooled and appears to have an integrated controller. I’ve found some specs on it on various press releases and whatnot. Seems to be in the 5-7 KW continuous and up to 15KW peak output range and 90 lb/ft of torque for this model:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122337_hybrid-or-not-2019-ram-1500-etorque-does-some-smart-things-with-48v-tech

The controller is likely similar to or actually this Infineon unit:

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/evaluation-boards/48v-bsg-inverter/

What’s interesting is Continental seems to have adapted this motor for the Electric scooter market:

https://www.pressreader.com/india/auto-components-india/20181110/281685435919690

The picture of the motor on the table looks nearly identical to the one I purchased.

I haven’t received mine yet, but will post more info here once I do and what I figure out with it. I don’t have high hopes for using the built in controller. But I’m betting it has Hall sensors.

Has anyone else worked with these or explored them? Since these systems have achieved a fair amount of adoption there is going to be a decent supply on the salvage market. Might be a good source for mid-power motors at a decent price. If the controllers could be figured out it would be a slam-dunk.
 
Just found this manual from Infineon (assuming this is the module on my motor):

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-20180802_AN-Power_stage_of_48V_BSG_inverter_V2.2-AN-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d46265487f7b0165a3863b8e5bcf

What is interesting is it’s not a controller. Just an inverter board and it details the wiring pin out for all gate driving signals. Seems possible to put custom brains in place to drive that inverter board.
 
wiredsim said:
Just found this manual from Infineon (assuming this is the module on my motor):

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-20180802_AN-Power_stage_of_48V_BSG_inverter_V2.2-AN-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d46265487f7b0165a3863b8e5bcf

What is interesting is it’s not a controller. Just an inverter board and it details the wiring pin out for all gate driving signals. Seems possible to put custom brains in place to drive that inverter board.

It's a nice big inverter. Definitely capable of 12kW.

But you'll need more than just an MCU. You'll need a (very high spec) gate driver board, some kind of inductive current sensors, and a lot of time to debug. This isn't one to jump into lightly thinking it'll be an afternoons work.

There are quite a few off the shelf units available that'll drive that alternator/motor and cost a lot less than the asked 611gbp ( 800usd?)
 
mxlemming said:
wiredsim said:
Just found this manual from Infineon (assuming this is the module on my motor):

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-20180802_AN-Power_stage_of_48V_BSG_inverter_V2.2-AN-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d46265487f7b0165a3863b8e5bcf

What is interesting is it’s not a controller. Just an inverter board and it details the wiring pin out for all gate driving signals. Seems possible to put custom brains in place to drive that inverter board.

It's a nice big inverter. Definitely capable of 12kW.

But you'll need more than just an MCU. You'll need a (very high spec) gate driver board, some kind of inductive current sensors, and a lot of time to debug. This isn't one to jump into lightly thinking it'll be an afternoons work.

There are quite a few off the shelf units available that'll drive that alternator/motor and cost a lot less than the asked 611gbp ( 800usd?)

Good info, I might reach out to Infineon on this also to see what they have that goes with it.

Why do I care? Well does it change the story if it is free? This unit appears to be built into the 3.6l V6 “etorque” BSD built for Chrysler from Continental. You can purchase one of those whole BSD units for ~$100 on the scrap market with only a few thousand miles on it.

I’m buying it for the motor, so the Inverter is just a free bonus.
 
wiredsim said:
mxlemming said:
wiredsim said:
Just found this manual from Infineon (assuming this is the module on my motor):

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-20180802_AN-Power_stage_of_48V_BSG_inverter_V2.2-AN-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d46265487f7b0165a3863b8e5bcf

What is interesting is it’s not a controller. Just an inverter board and it details the wiring pin out for all gate driving signals. Seems possible to put custom brains in place to drive that inverter board.

It's a nice big inverter. Definitely capable of 12kW.

But you'll need more than just an MCU. You'll need a (very high spec) gate driver board, some kind of inductive current sensors, and a lot of time to debug. This isn't one to jump into lightly thinking it'll be an afternoons work.

There are quite a few off the shelf units available that'll drive that alternator/motor and cost a lot less than the asked 611gbp ( 800usd?)

Good info, I might reach out to Infineon on this also to see what they have that goes with it.

Why do I care? Well does it change the story if it is free? This unit appears to be built into the 3.6l V6 “etorque” BSD built for Chrysler from Continental. You can purchase one of those whole BSD units for ~$100 on the scrap market with only a few thousand miles on it.

I’m buying it for the motor, so the Inverter is just a free bonus.

Sure if you get the inverter for free it's a great deal.

And it'll come with the gate drivers.

And MCU.

Then you can either get into the canbus or whatever protocol it has or decapitate it and drive it from another MCU

But it might save you enough in time that you just buy a controller that's good for 50V300A. Splicing into a motor driver is not trivial unless you already know what you're doing.
 
Well good news is I received it quickly. The other news is it definitely doesn’t have the Infineon controller. Attached are some photos.

I’ve never seen anything quite like that. The three terminals coming out of the back plate are obviously the three phase connectors. The black square in the middle is a large film capacitor.

It appears to use a common ground for -48v with the large screw connector being for +48v. The additional connector is a 12 pin. Which is the same pin count as the Infineon board for what that’s worth. I suspect there isn’t an MCU onboard.

The potting is really snotty, like what they use to seal flyers together or paper adds to magazines. I’ll try probing the connector to some of the exposed leads.
 

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Looks like those are 8 TOLT MOSFETs per phase. But 4 high side and 4 low side? I’m not familiar with that configuration. If you look at each phase set, there are 4 contact pairs coming from under the capacitor and with each the upper is positive and the lower is neg.

So on closer inspection there obviously is a controller board under the capacitor. None of the 12 pin connector wires correspond to the gate pins. There are voltage sense wires running to where I presume the controller board is.

It appears that this is all screwed in from underneath. But the back plate of the motor doesn’t readily want to come off. Now I have to decide if I want to try and get the back plate off or try and cut the capacitor out.
 
Cheers for posting. Very interesting. Looks like a standard highly optimized (for cost) h bridge.4fets in parallel is normal, i guess wafers are just easiest to process in about that size.

It's an incredibly simple layout, they've barely even bothered with the kind of layout care us on this forum tend to aim for, and since they're automotive i guess it'll last ages. Software is the main cause of MOSFET death, maybe they got that right.

Not sure what help you're really looking for, if any. Good luck.

Please post photos of the control board when you get to it!
 
I took the wrong strategy for disassembling from the top. Ended up taking out the capacitor (ruined it) and then figured out I have to remove the back plate anyway. I have to separate each welded phase joint to safely remove it.

I’ll post more photos once I do so. I decided to sleep on it before I made bad choices.
 
Well the saga of tearing apart things I don’t fully understand continues. I have now taken it apart to bits and pieces. Let’s just say it does not disassemble easily, it drew blood, as is tradition.

I’m sure someone out there that’s familiar with these things is raging at my terrible manhandling of a valuable piece of engineering. But here are the gory pictures.

So the main MCU appears to be an NXP unit that is really quite beefy. Data sheet here:

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2793507.pdf

The other ST chip on the board I can’t find any real details on.
 

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The biggest thing I was hoping to find but haven’t is hall sensors. This appears to be a sensorless setup? I suppose it would rarely be starting from a dead stop with a significant torque load. Though it is used to start the ICE, for start/stop functionality.

There are sensors at each phase bus bar, but those appear to be current sensors.

The good news is there is definitely room on the back of the shaft to add hall sensors if desired. I’m thinking of trying to drive it with a VESC controller in sensorless FOC mode.
 
That little soic8 in the middle is probably a solid state resolver/angle measuring ic.

What's its part number? I'll bet it's a hall effect angle sensor.

That board is never going to work again.

Pointlessly complicated control board. Oh well.

The st chip is some kind of multi channel DCDC controller.

You'll probably be able to run this from a VESC. Look into the options with VESC for a magnetic angle sensor. Sensorless isn't great for startup despite the promises.
 
You are spot on there- thanks for the reminder, I wondered about that when I was typing up the other post while waiting in line at the pharmacy. I just checked it and it’s a ADA 4571H. Which is a “High precision 180° angle sensor”.

https://www.analog.com/en/products/ada4571.html

I’m not familiar with utilizing a sensor like this with the kind of controllers available to us mere mortals. Any idea how best to drive this motor with something like a KESC controller?
 

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Oh and I totally agree that board isn’t going to ever work again. But I had come to that conclusion early on- I had no chance of hacking the interface and the only way to really learn about it’s guts was a total tear down.

If I picked up another one of these I’d consider trying to utilize the existing MOSFETs and drive it with a VESC brains and driver board. But for now with my current capabilities I’m going to go full new controller.
 
Try a tle5012 or AS5047 module mounted and reading the same magnet. Think VESC has support for these.

Might need to check and see if it has the correct number of poles on that magnet. Probably does.
 
Update: I picked up a GO-FOC HV200 VESC controller- I picked that up based on some analysis of available VESC units, the HV200 has a $ per Peak kW of $8.83, which is the cheapest by far for a >100 amp capable VESC. Well there is a 75v 300/450amp unit on Aliexpress, but no idea when I'd actually get it and how much I trust that.

So far so good, seems like a decent quality for the value. I've had mixed results with testing on the eTorque motor though. I got it working with another Alternator that I have as well. The issue with the eTorque is that while using the Motor wizard or the auto-detection tools within the VESC tool it spins up smoothly. However when actually putting it under throttle it start stuttering and acting jumpy and then cuts out. I thought it may have been an issue with the analog input with the thumb throttle I was using, but I tried it in PPM mode with no change (using an Arduino driving a PPM signal).

Here's what the VESC tool auto detection reported (based on several tests):

Motor Current: 190A
Motor R: 5.5mΩ
Motor L: 3.57 uH
Motor Flux Linkage 2.85mWb

I'm running this sensorless at the moment. I should say the jumpiness is in FOC mode, it isn't as bad in BLDC, but still doesn't seem to be working quite right. Here is a short video of it in action:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmJHVzi60GQN0wsmRemJK2HGd423

Yes I am just clamping the phase wires to the phase leads on the motor- I will develop a better connection, but if I solder something I won't be able to re-attach the cover to the motor.

Any thoughts? I am going to try getting my AS5048a up and running, but hoping to get FOC working first.
 
You need the 5.03 firmware. The current VESC released, master version is no good to anyone I'm afraid.

Then you'll need the latest VESC tool.

https://vesc-project.com/node/2859
 
Great info, I’ll give that a go! The only concern I have on the GO-FOC is a messy solder job on one IC (buck converter). Several pins are bridged, but not sure if that’s actually an issue or intentional. The IC is a TI LM5161 PWR, spec sheet here:

https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm5161.pdf

According to that the first two pins that appear to be bring are AGND and PGND, so not sure that’s a problem. The other set bridged are VIN and EN, which appears to be for “Precision enable”. So potentially that should be bridged also. The photos on their website seem to about match what I have also. Just makes me want to remove and re-add it but I will probably leave well enough alone. The issue is the 3.3v/5v and the ADC inputs seem quite noisy.
 

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That looks like a manual solder job. They probably couldn't get the DCDC SMT'd in the current component bloodbath so added them later.

I'd leave it alone if it works. The pins you mentioned are meant to be bridged.
 
That’s what I suspected but with how sloppy it looked I wasn’t for certain. Thanks for confirming.

I switched to 5.03 but unfortunately if anything it made it worse. I have figured out that PID mode doesn’t seem to be properly functioning at all. At default settings after the FOC wizard it would start off choppy then start to spin and then lock up. If I extend the open loop time it will largely work for as long as the open loop time is set to. It still has a hard time starting sensorless, but then once it hits 50amps and ~2000 rpm it will ramp pretty well between 2k and 5k rpm (I also increased the open loop RPM). Over 150amps and 5K it just starts to bog down and then eventually cuts out. My FETs were getting hot though, so I need to do more testing as it may have been current temp limiting at the controller.

I’ve messed about quite a bit with the PID settings and can’t seem to make any difference. I did enable hi current sensing.

In BLDC mode it doesn’t really have the same issue, but the throttle ramp almost immediately jumps to insane RPMs, probably 12-15k in an instance with barely any throttle.

Time for more experimenting. Once I figure out my as5548 wiring I’ll give that a try, but I don’t expect that to effect the PID functioning
 
wiredsim said:
That’s what I suspected but with how sloppy it looked I wasn’t for certain. Thanks for confirming.

I switched to 5.03 but unfortunately if anything it made it worse. I have figured out that PID mode doesn’t seem to be properly functioning at all. At default settings after the FOC wizard it would start off choppy then start to spin and then lock up. If I extend the open loop time it will largely work for as long as the open loop time is set to. It still has a hard time starting sensorless, but then once it hits 50amps and ~2000 rpm it will ramp pretty well between 2k and 5k rpm (I also increased the open loop RPM). Over 150amps and 5K it just starts to bog down and then eventually cuts out. My FETs were getting hot though, so I need to do more testing as it may have been current temp limiting at the controller.

I’ve messed about quite a bit with the PID settings and can’t seem to make any difference. I did enable hi current sensing.

In BLDC mode it doesn’t really have the same issue, but the throttle ramp almost immediately jumps to insane RPMs, probably 12-15k in an instance with barely any throttle.

Time for more experimenting. Once I figure out my as5548 wiring I’ll give that a try, but I don’t expect that to effect the PID functioning
This normally means detection has failed, the inductance resistance or flux linkage are way out.

Post the detection results? Are they the same as last time on the old firmware?

Sorry it didn't help updating. Worked wonders for me. VESC has some strange behavior, too complicated for it's own good sometimes.
 
Well breakthrough- I should have read that 5.03 thread better. Once I disabled Phase filters it fixed the issue and now throttle is much smoother without any backwards start. However motor and PID settings are requiring a lot of tweaking. My current motor settings that largely match what it detected on 5.2 are:

Motor Current: 300A
Motor R: 0.6mΩ
Motor L: 9.5 uH
Inductance Difference: 0.45 µH
Motor Flux Linkage 5.5mWb

However what it calculated for KP/KI was:
Current KP: 0.0095
Current KI: 0.47

At those levels and default PID Kp/Ki it was experiencing serious oscillations where it would drop about 2000 eRPMs and then ramp back up every second or so. I dropped the Motor KP and KI significantly and ultimately did so in the PID settings, that has helped, but over time it falls apart and starts oscillating again (within about 5-10 seconds sitting at a duty cycle of .15-.20). Where I left it was setting the Motor KP to 0.0001 and KI to 0.03. Progress anyway. Curious how much of this is due to how low the resistance is on this motor for this controller.

Found out some more information on the motor, since I haven't figured out how many Pole Pairs it actually has (I've tried putting current on two phase leads, but it just has a continuous resistance, I don't feel any specific cogging). Here is a video on how it is made:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX3VtPxYr1g[/youtube]

Looks like it has slanted rotor slots. The Stator design was very interesting looking in person, but it's very interesting to see how it is actually welded together. Looks like they had developed a larger 30kW continuous model also:

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/07/20190702-conti.html
 

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wiredsim said:
Found out some more information on the motor, since I haven't figured out how many Pole Pairs it actually has (I've tried putting current on two phase leads, but it just has a continuous resistance, I don't feel any specific cogging). Here is a video on how it is made:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX3VtPxYr1g[/youtube]

Looks like it has slanted rotor slots. The Stator design was very interesting looking in person, but it's very interesting to see how it is actually welded together. Looks like they had developed a larger 30kW continuous model also:

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/07/20190702-conti.html

Are you sure this is a BLDC not an induction motor? Constant force with no cogging is very suspicious. With magnets you really really should get cogging when you apply a current. Induction will give you a constant force.

VESC doesn't support induction motors yet.

I'm afraid i might have thrown you bad information saying the VESC could run it, I'd assumed it was a permanent magnet motor without much real reason to... Only really because it has an absolute rotary encoder in it.
 
https://www.continental.com/en/press/press-releases/2016-10-20-48v-hybrid-modular-system/

Yeah sorry dude... Looks like you've got an induction motor.

Try foc_openloop 20 500 in the console. That should spin it at 500erpm with 20A current without trying to track anything.

If you can slow it down without it jumping out in a clunky steps way, you've got an induction motor.
 
Well that explains a lot! I can’t believe I missed that during my digging.

No worries on the VESC- I have plenty of use for it. At least I know what I’m dealing with now. I’m surprised it worked as well as it did before the observer falls behind.
 
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