Optimistic Kelly

Electric Motors and Controllers
space4dreamz   1 W

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Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 24 2014 7:10am

Hi there

I'm using the Kelly KBS72121L, rated 50A cont/120A peak. http://kellycontroller.com/kbs72121l50a ... -1175.html

However, the maximum current display I could ever see on the CA never exceeded 30A. I've checked all the settings using the "Kelly KBS user program" and it's on the maximum.

Does anyone had a better experience regarding Amps with this mini controller?


Thanks

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Gregory   100 kW

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Gregory » Feb 24 2014 7:38am

It might help to know what voltage and motor/gearing/rim combination you are using?


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 24 2014 8:35am

Thanks Gregory

Motor - rear hub Crystalyte 3540
Rim - 26"
Tyres - HookWorm 2.5"
Battery - Nano-Tech LiPo 18s 75V (currently 12s - should not affect the Amps)

The frame is Norco VPS Atomik freeride - http://www.norco.com/archives/2005/bike ... &id=atomik

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Gregory   100 kW

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Gregory » Feb 24 2014 8:45am

There goes that theory. I was thinking weak battery or small diameter rim! Wrong on both.


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Trilska » Feb 24 2014 10:52am

The Ca mesures battery current while the kellycontrolers are defined via pfase current.
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space4dreamz   1 W

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 24 2014 11:05am

:wink:

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 24 2014 11:09am

Trilska wrote:The Ca mesures battery current while the kellycontrolers are defined via pfase current.

Thanks Trilska, but what does "pfase" mean? is there a way to calculate Pfase current from battery current?



thanks

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Trilska » Feb 24 2014 2:49pm

Ops i mispelled it. phase current.

Phase current is the actual current that the motor "feels" ( ie gains torque from), and i have not come across any good method on how to calculate it properly, but as a rule of thumb the phase current will be 1.5-3 times higher than battery current. This is of course depending on the motor itselfe and other parameters. I am at my knowlage limit but i am sure further info is somwhere around the forum, so you just have to practise your endless/google-fu. 8)
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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Doctorbass » Feb 24 2014 4:21pm

That situation of not reaching max power can also occur when the LVC is set too high or when your battery voltage sag too much and the LVC trip and lower the current to avoid overdischarge.

Doc
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Willow   10 kW

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Willow » Feb 24 2014 8:03pm

Is your CA limiting the amps??

space4dreamz   1 W

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 25 2014 2:04am

Trilska wrote:Ops i mispelled it. phase current.

Phase current is the actual current that the motor "feels" ( ie gains torque from), and i have not come across any good method on how to calculate it properly, but as a rule of thumb the phase current will be 1.5-3 times higher than battery current. This is of course depending on the motor itselfe and other parameters. I am at my knowlage limit but i am sure further info is somwhere around the forum, so you just have to practise your endless/google-fu. 8)
Thanks again Trilska. I've done some reading and apparently the phase current is 1.732 X Line current (in one of the methods), which indeed takes the 30A line current to 50A phase current. However, it's like saying that I'm wearing an 88 size shoes (summing both feet) - a slight twist of the truth :cry: .

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 25 2014 2:08am

Willow wrote:Is your CA limiting the amps??

No Willow, the CA is used only for measuring and display. Thanks.

space4dreamz   1 W

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 25 2014 2:16am

Doctorbass wrote:That situation of not reaching max power can also occur when the LVC is set too high or when your battery voltage sag too much and the LVC trip and lower the current to avoid overdischarge.

Doc

Hey Doc,
When you say LVC, you probably refer to the CA function which I'm not using. The only functioning LVC in my setup is the physical boards I bought from "Methods" and these are fixed per cell.
It is for sure not a case of too much voltage sag - I've done the test when all the cells were hot of the charger - 4.2V per cell.

Thanks

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Doctorbass » Feb 25 2014 11:45pm

space4dreamz wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:That situation of not reaching max power can also occur when the LVC is set too high or when your battery voltage sag too much and the LVC trip and lower the current to avoid overdischarge.

Doc

Hey Doc,
When you say LVC, you probably refer to the CA function which I'm not using. The only functioning LVC in my setup is the physical boards I bought from "Methods" and these are fixed per cell.
It is for sure not a case of too much voltage sag - I've done the test when all the cells were hot of the charger - 4.2V per cell.

Thanks

The LVC i'm reffering to is the one that your controller is set to... ex: LVC is 36V for 12s lipo...

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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space4dreamz   1 W

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 27 2014 2:53am

Doctorbass wrote:
The LVC i'm reffering to is the one that your controller is set to... ex: LVC is 36V for 12s lipo...

Doc

OK, got you now. But like I wrote - The battery is "hot of the charger" and its way far from the controller LVC limit, it's around 47.5V (under load).
I dont think it's a case of cut off at all cause I'm not feeling any "cut" on the throttle.
It's probably just a case of marketing high numbers as opposed to real life numbers (phase current opposed to line current).

Thanks again Doc.

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Tench » Feb 27 2014 4:54am

I too had heard or read that Kelly amps are phase and not battery which would mean your system is working as intended. If you want more I have always found the 72v 40a controller Justin sells at Grin is ideal for the HS/T 35xx series motors allowing them to produce 3kw.
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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by oatnet » Feb 27 2014 11:36am

space4dreamz wrote: It's probably just a case of marketing high numbers as opposed to real life numbers (phase current opposed to line current).
I've used 10+ brushed and brushless Kelly controllers on vehicles ranging from ebikes to a VW Bus conversion (build links in signature); Kelly always rate their controllers as motor amps instead of battery amps, and quote the "10-second "current instead of continuous current, so many people have been surprised as you have been.

I think rating by peak motor current more common in the brushed-DC automotive world where Kelly started, but it is very confusing to those of us who come from the ebike world where BLDC controllers are rated in continious battery amps. OTOH they did build solid controllers when choices were limited, but controller choices have grown exponentially, so...

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space4dreamz   1 W

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by space4dreamz » Feb 27 2014 6:33pm

Tench wrote:I too had heard or read that Kelly amps are phase and not battery.
oatnet wrote:I've used 10+ brushed and brushless Kelly controllers on vehicles ranging from ebikes to a VW Bus conversion (build links in signature); Kelly always rate their controllers as motor amps instead of phase amps, and quote the "10-second "current instead of continuous current, so many people have been surprised as you have been.

Thank you all for the insight & the enlightment.


No thanks Kelly for selling an over priced controller with nice numbers (on the brochure).


That mini controller is my first Kelly, and mos-def my last.



Space4

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AussieJester   100 GW

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by AussieJester » Feb 27 2014 8:40pm

went from blowing highly modified 12 and 18fet Infineons that promised world
performance wise, to a Kelly controller.......

night and day difference, throttle control on the Kelly is amazingly good
power deliver smooth and constant..

Will Never go back to cheap infineons for "rc motor" application...

KiM

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by Peter Sternersson » Mar 16 2014 12:56pm

So you are blaming Kelly because you can´t read? :roll:


After I blew a modified Infineon for no apparent reason, and decided to buy a Kelly instead, life has never been easier.
I´m never going back to the Infineon style controllers.
Kelly even comes with warranty...

Not to mention the LED signaling faults, has saved me at least a few hours on trouble shooting...

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by crossbreak » Apr 02 2014 3:38pm

thanks for the info give here. How can we determine max battery current from their specs?

The KBS72121L is rated 50A phase, it seems it does 30A battery current. That is 3/5. Is it always 3/5? So a 200A rated Kelly automatically does 120A bat current?

EDIT: They tell that
•Max Battery Current: Configurable.
How? Is there i thread about this somewhere? I want battery current close to phase current since i like the "ICE like feeling". It helps to reduce Wh/mile and always forces me to shift the best gear .

EDIT2: found this page about Kelly programming: http://bergerweb.net/electricbike/programming.shtml

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crossbreak   100 MW

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by crossbreak » Apr 02 2014 4:12pm

From the KBS Manual:
(7)Max Battery Current
Value range: 20%-100%
[...] Factory default is 100%.
This is not so good :( Seems like 30A is the max your controller will do :oops:

Edit: Ok, the larger KBL72101X like http://kellycontroller.com/kbl72101x24- ... -p-56.html
are no option, it can doa about the same as the MUCH smaller KBS72121X http://kellycontroller.com/kbs72121x55a ... p-529.html

BUT: it cost almost $90 more !!?! That must be a joke :lol:

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by gwhy! » Apr 02 2014 4:41pm

I have always suspected the kelly controllers were spec' ed by phase current and I think this is one of the reasons why some people say they tend to be more reliable and due to the low current and the slow ramp up of the throttle it appears that the overall throttle control is much better.. when if the same setting were incorporated into a 12fet or 18fet controller it will feel nearly the same but more responsive ( no lag in throttle ) , I have not ever tested a kelly but people that I have talked to and worked with have all been disappointed with the lack of snappiness of the throttle response when they are after a bigger hit by so called upgrading the controller.

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by crossbreak » Apr 02 2014 4:44pm

maybe it is just their price police. Anyway.. can anyone with experience answer the above questions please?? Thanks!!
Last edited by crossbreak on Apr 02 2014 5:21pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Optimistic Kelly

Post by crossbreak » Apr 02 2014 4:46pm

gwhy: Throttle LAG!?!? In a $$$ controller!?! Is this a joke as well? I must test this!

From: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 09#p874679
dan974 wrote:
crossbreak wrote:about our Kelly: It seems that it does only around 3/5 as battery current of the rated 55A "motor current". That would be 33A battery current for our chosen one. For 20s Li-ion we should see 2442W peak. Not 4kW :oops: this motor will be bored a bit: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 77#p858870
130 peak should give you 0.7 x130 =90a peak, and able to give 40A continuous.... My 240 rated peak key gave me 189A ( battery) in thé sand, and easy 110 A boost on flat the question is : are you able to handle a 72V 90a peak ? Don't forget the kelly is a square/truesin mix,... I think the guy you mention was never able to setup it....but I do not know kbs only key ones....
http://kellycontroller.com/faqs.php
http://kellycontroller.com/KBShelp.php

Set motor at 100% if you don t care heating it
And battery % according to the peak value and the I precomize 60% OF YOUR battery C discharge not to destroy it...for exemple a 8ah 30c = 240 A take 144A as max discharge not to damage...so set at 100% battery (or maybe 70% is max like on keb model) If you got a 20c 8ah, 160 À discharge, take 96A AS REAL, THEN downgrade the battery current to 70 % to protect from too much discharge, or if your sag is too much
Take nite that the software can give you full motor current at low speed because of current multiplication....so it could be your battery pack discharge rate that limit, if you haveore Amp, you reduce the sag and so you get a higher Discharge C
Kelly recommend to get 2 to 3 time the power motor rated.....72V*55A =4kW rated should be ok for a 1500/2000w rated motor....
Correct me if I m wrong...ask gindc why is truesin is more powerfull and faster with less amp
Last edited by crossbreak on Apr 02 2014 4:58pm, edited 1 time in total.

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