My new Colossus Water Cooled motor

SplinterOz

SplinterOz

1 kW
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
496
Location
Canberra
I was able to get two of the first new Colossus Water Cooled motors in the world.
The guys were great and shipped them from the factory to me rather than through their base in Croatia. This meant however I had to put the final Hall Sensor board in and do the initial timing.

NOTE: The Zelena vozila d.o.o. guys will do this for you prior to shipping the motor to you.

Toolman2 and I spent some time last night getting it right and I thought I would share some images.

This first image shows the 24 tooth stator and NSK bearings used throughout.
DSC_0272 by Splinter, on Flickr

The second shows the can construction with the blue epoxy used during balancing.
DSC_0273 by Splinter, on Flickr

The third photo shows the new hall board mounted in the motor.
DSC_0270 by Splinter, on Flickr
 
The inductance of the motor is approx 8.4uH measured between the phase leads.
If my multimeter is reading it correctly the resistance is 0.4 ohms (lowest figure my meter can read is 0.1 ohm).
 
Hi splinter, What KV did you pick? and for what pack voltage?
Zappy
 
I have not measured this motor but I assume it is the same as the previous at around 75kv.

The motor is now mounted and running on the bike.
DSC_0275 by Splinter, on Flickr

I am uploading the video to youtube as I type.....

[youtube]wck4gN-fYNM[/youtube]

So I now have this "very difficult" motor running on the bike. Need to tidy some stuff up and check whether I need an extra bearing before attaching the chain and spinning the wheel.
 
SplinterOz said:
The inductance of the motor is approx 8.4uH measured between the phase leads.
If my multimeter is reading it correctly the resistance is 0.4 ohms (lowest figure my meter can read is 0.1 ohm).
Click to expand...

Inductance looks about right, I haven't measured mine yet, but the last one I had was right around 9uH and I think this is the same physically. Your resistance is way off due to the meter. In order to get proper resistance you need to use the 4 wire kelvin method and pass current through the coil while measuring the voltage drop across the phase wire under test. This is easy, but must be setup correctly. A hand held DMM in resistance mode is unable to measure the very low resistances in most motors.
 
zombiess said:
SplinterOz said:
The inductance of the motor is approx 8.4uH measured between the phase leads.
If my multimeter is reading it correctly the resistance is 0.4 ohms (lowest figure my meter can read is 0.1 ohm).
Click to expand...

Inductance looks about right, I haven't measured mine yet, but the last one I had was right around 9uH and I think this is the same physically. Your resistance is way off due to the meter. In order to get proper resistance you need to use the 4 wire kelvin method and pass current through the coil while measuring the voltage drop across the phase wire under test. This is easy, but must be setup correctly. A hand held DMM in resistance mode is unable to measure the very low resistances in most motors.
Click to expand...

Yes I thought that would be the case.
 
Hi,
5 years of developent, and now we have motor that can work well with "standard" Infineon controllers, with Kelly and with most of the other controllers.
Click to expand...

Arlo1 said:
I will belive it when I see it. They are blaming it on a hall miss alignment. Mine never had a hall misalignment and still blew up controllers if they changed the KV then maybe But still it would need to be about 50uH to allow most controllers to run it without problem so that would mean a lot less rpm per volt about 2.5-3x less...
Click to expand...
SplinterOz said:
So I now have this "very difficult" motor running on the bike.
Click to expand...
So did they fix the problems so that this motor "can work well...with most of the other controllers" or is it still a "very difficult motor"?

In other words does it still only work well with some Kelly controllers?
 
I hope to be able to offer kit = Motor and controller before the end of this year.


Kelly HIGH SPEED controllers and our customized Infineons are working fine today, and the most of other controllers will work just fine.


We thought that problem is low inductance, but it was not.
The main problem was not reading clear signals from HAL sensors. This is where we lost a few years, solved it, and will not reveal anything else.


... but for 100 % capabilities and racing we will offer controller with exact setup for this motor.
 
Accountant said:
I hope to be able to offer kit = Motor and controller before the end of this year.


Kelly HIGH SPEED controllers and our customized Infineons are working fine today, and the most of other controllers will work just fine.


We thought that problem is low inductance, but it was not.
The main problem was not reading clear signals from HAL sensors. This is where we lost a few years, solved it, and will not reveal anything else.


... but for 100 % capabilities and racing we will offer controller with exact setup for this motor.
Click to expand...

What sort of price are you looking at?
 
briangv99 said:
Hey Splinter,

are you getting together any parts to run water cooling?

Zappy posted some tests on water flow for coffee machine pumps that can be had for a good price on Ebay http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45816&p=668234&hilit=+coffee#p668234

Looks like a good option to get heat out of the motor windings especially with summer just around the corner
Click to expand...

I have a couple of those already. Ripperton uses them on his racebike.

Just noticed that he got the idea from me in the first place. :)
 
Great, I'll get one in

Looking forward to seeing how the new motor goes on the dyno (by the way did you get Burtie's timing adjuster to play with your Kelly?)
 
I just can't see such motor running smoothly with 8μH. The lower inductance you have, the more sensitive it is to hall positions, however whatever you do, inductance is still very low. It will run loud and hot and eat controllers for lunch.
Here is why:
n93ZMc5.png


More info: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=29852&p=957660#p957637

This is also true for most other motor/controller setups. For example I have measured a very similar current waveform on battery terminal with 25A kelly controller and 350W 8fun BPM motor, however levels are a lot lower and only affect EMI and current measurement accuracy.
 
circuit said:
I just can't see such motor running smoothly with 8μH. The lower inductance you have, the more sensitive it is to hall positions, however whatever you do, inductance is still very low. It will run loud and hot and eat controllers for lunch.
Here is why:
n93ZMc5.png


More info: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=29852&p=957660#p957637

This is also true for most other motor/controller setups. For example I have measured a very similar current waveform on battery terminal with 25A kelly controller and 350W 8fun BPM motor, however levels are a lot lower and only affect EMI and current measurement accuracy.
Click to expand...

Circuit, this is my thread about my bike.

Not another thread on "you will never run this motor"!

NOTE I have been running the two prototypes of this motor for ages. The first for over a year with the last five months of that on the road as a daily commuter. I did not even water cool that motor. In this time I have not blown up any controllers, not one!.
 
SplinterOz said:
Circuit, this is my thread about my bike.
Click to expand...
Sorry about that. However this is in motor technology forum, so...
There is a separate forum for personal projects.

SplinterOz said:
NOTE I have been running the two prototypes of this motor for ages. The first for over a year with the last five months of that on the road as a daily commuter. I did not even water cool that motor. In this time I have not blown up any controllers, not one!.
Click to expand...
I will not dive in to what you are doing differently or the amount of actual doing. There are others claiming similar results. But the day comes and they stop their claims and go silent. Or start telling different story. Member Arlo1, for example.
 
circuit said:
SplinterOz said:
Circuit, this is my thread about my bike.
Click to expand...
Sorry about that. However this is in motor technology forum, so...
There is a separate forum for personal projects.

SplinterOz said:
NOTE I have been running the two prototypes of this motor for ages. The first for over a year with the last five months of that on the road as a daily commuter. I did not even water cool that motor. In this time I have not blown up any controllers, not one!.
Click to expand...
I will not dive in to what you are doing differently or the amount of actual doing. There are others claiming similar results. But the day comes and they stop their claims and go silent. Or start telling different story. Member Arlo1, for example.
Click to expand...

Yes I know Arlo1 is saying other things... if you want to check out my history with this motor and the proof then have a look at my blog site... http://rgelectric.wordpress.com it links to photos and videos. I have been a little quiet of late as I was waiting for the production run to reboot the bike.

My bad in about the forum choice... will see if I can fix that.
 
I never said Kelly will not run this. I did say you need to select the right Kelly to run it. I also do not believe Kelly is a great controller but if it works for you congrats.
I also have seen more HP from hub motors with cheaper controllers that you have splinter from the Kelly colossus setup you run I like to push limits or even find them and you will not do that with a Kelly. But what I also meant is I don't think a typical ebike controller will run this motor. It will be great for them to offer controller/motor combos I think that is a good idea.
I like your build Splinter and its pretty cool to here the new motor it sounds good. I hope all works out well for you.
 
Most every controller can run a motor unloaded and survive.

My hunch would be most RC controllers could get that motor to free spin without blowing up. Pin the throttle under a high load and you may find a different experience.
 
liveforphysics said:
Most every controller can run a motor unloaded and survive.

My hunch would be most RC controllers could get that motor to free spin without blowing up. Pin the throttle under a high load and you may find a different experience.
Click to expand...

The chain will go on in the next couple of days and like the last two prototypes I am confident my motorbike will accelerate down the road with no bad sh#t happening.
 
SplinterOz,

What voltage and current are you able to run your Kelly safely with Colossus? What kind of load is it pushing (all up weight and no load speed at the wheel or top speed if that's more readily available)?
 
John in CR said:
SplinterOz,

What voltage and current are you able to run your Kelly safely with Colossus? What kind of load is it pushing (all up weight and no load speed at the wheel or top speed if that's more readily available)?
Click to expand...

I have been using the Kelly 72 volt controllers so hot off the charge around 84 volts.
I did the no load readings last night and got the following data (with my setup):
Max RPM: 4640
Pack V: 77volts
Amps: 14 amps

That means the KV is almost exactly 60
The no load amps are about what I saw on the previous prototypes with neutral timing.

I also tried Burtie's Timing Adjuster however the HPM Kelly controllers really don't like the change in hall signals. This was also noted the last time I tried them with the previous motor.

With the previous prototype the KV was a little higher and the bike would do 110km/h on the road, was dyno'd to 125km/h. I calculated that bike to be about 140km/h with wheel in air.
Unless I change ratio this bike will be a little slower, so I may have to replace the rear sprocket.

I expect to get my bike back to the bikeshow next year and win another most unique award.
Most Unique Bombala 2013 by Splinter, on Flickr
 
SplinterOz said:
circuit said:
...
There are others claiming similar results. But the day comes and they stop their claims and go silent.
...
Click to expand...
Maybe they get tired of being told that they couldn't possibly have done what they have done, I know I did.
Click to expand...
Give it time.

The fact that it is taking 1kW just to spin freely is alarming at least. One would ask where and why that energy is going to. As I said, measure current waveform on battery and phase, you will see some interesting stuff, that is wayyy past specification of any controller, even peak ratings. I guess you will see current spikes of around 1000A or over, at no load. It may run "fine" for now, but after some time your controller's caps will boil out, or you will decide to add longer battery cables and the whole thing start resonating, or ... It's just matter of time. I was telling the same thing to Arlo1 last year.
 
circuit said:
SplinterOz said:
circuit said:
...
There are others claiming similar results. But the day comes and they stop their claims and go silent.
...
Click to expand...
Maybe they get tired of being told that they couldn't possibly have done what they have done, I know I did.
Click to expand...
Give it time.

The fact that it is taking 1kW just to spin freely is alarming at least. One would ask where and why that energy is going to. As I said, measure current waveform on battery and phase, you will see some interesting stuff, that is wayyy past specification of any controller, even peak ratings. I guess you will see current spikes of around 1000A or over, at no load. It may run "fine" for now, but after some time your controller's caps will boil out, or you will decide to add longer battery cables and the whole thing start resonating, or ... It's just matter of time. I was telling the same thing to Arlo1 last year.
Click to expand...


How much is some time? I rode this bike DAILY for 5 months a total of 35km perday ... and at least twice weekly before that for about a year while testing.
 
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