1971 Super Beetle EV Conversion - Using a salvage Leaf

Hi all,

I'm working on a '71 Volkswagen Super Beetle Conversion. We've de'ICEd it. At this point, it's a matter of making decisions in regards to the EV parts and I'm shooting for the moon...

This is my first EV build (hopefully the first of several). I live in Southern California near Los Angeles, and driving distances (and times) out here can be problematic. There's a lot of highway driving out here, which obviously puts more strain on the range, particularly with something with as bad of a cdA as a VW Beetle (0.48 cdA).

As far as skillset - I design and build recording studio gear. Soldering, PCB design, yada yada yada. I have a fairly solid self-taught understanding of analog electronics, CAD and mechanical work is in my wheelhouse, and I fortunately have a lot of contacts in CNC and fabrication that will help me along here.

Here's my goals:
TOP SPEED: minimum of 70mph. Any slower and people think you're a speed-bump out here (did I mention people in Southern CA drive like maniacs?)
RANGE: in a perfect world, a minimum of 100 miles (160km) of range at 80% DOD. We can probably get by with 70 miles (112km). Getting closer to our "ideal" range would be around a 24-25kWh battery pack. Also to note - we need some fairly heat-resistant batteries, as we often have 100F+ days out where I am during the summer. The 24kWh Leaf batteries from 2014 and later might do the trick, and I'm looking at figuring out how to manage their temp in some creative ways.
COST: We're probably putting a minimum of $2500 into restoring the body, interior, etc. The Beetle is a mess. I'd REALLY like to keep my costs down on the EV conversion to the point where we're no more than $7.5k in for a total of $10k. Looking at my speed and range goals, I understand that may not be entirely realistic, but hey...daring to dream here.
MOTOR CHOICE: I'd really like to go with a Nissan Leaf AC motor...

With that in mind, I'm looking at salvaging a 2014 or newer Leaf. I have a few concerns about doing this, but I think salvaging is probably the best way to hit my range and speed goals within our budget. Here's my (probably stupid) questions and concerns:

1) Does anyone have actual dimensions/weight for the 2013-2017 leaf motor (motor ONLY)? I'm having trouble finding actual dimensions. I need to know if I can actually fit this in my wee tiny engine compartment or if I'm going to have to do the half-moon cutout I've seen when folks stick a WarP 11 in there.
2) I obviously don't need the insane amount of power the Leaf motor can provide for a vehicle that will probably weigh less than 2000lbs when finished. The original 1600cc ICE was about 55hp...the Leaf motor conservatively puts out about 110hp continuous. Here's my first dumb question: can I cut down the DC voltage I provide to the motor by swapping the parallel/serial config the battery packs? Will I be dropping efficiency / torque in such a way that makes this undoable? If I drop the battery voltage down to, for example, 200Vdc, that puts the AC RMS around 140V. My thought process here is varied:

• This would keep any issues with traction at bay
• I can (hopefully) not have to set up a liquid cooling rig but keep the VW air-cooled legacy alive (while also cutting costs and weight by not having to set up any sort of liquid cooling. There's not exactly a place for a radiator on a Beetle.)
• I'm not a "car guy" to the extent where I only learn about something on my car when I need to fix it, so I'm obviously concerned about how much stress I'd be putting on the stock VW Beetle Transaxle we're keeping if I ran the Leaf motor onto it.

3) This obviously isn't taking into account working with a Leaf controller and inverter, because my (limited) understanding is that I can't keep the stock inverter and controller from the Leaf. Am I correct in this assumption, or have there been breakthroughs made that I'm not aware of? I'm under the assumption I'll be standing on the shoulders of the work of Paul and Arlo...

Thanks for bearing with the (hopefully not-too-)dumb questions. I could go simple with a forklift motor, or go with an expensive HPEVS or Netgain motor/controller combo. But I tend to shoot for the moon with all my projects, and more often than not I get a good distance there. I come into this lacking some of the necessary skills to utilize Paul and Arlo's work, but that's what YouTube (and a few very smart friends with EE degrees) are for.

If I can make salvaging Leaf components work, I think that goes a long way towards taking a significant chunk of the cost out of the project. My plan is to document this as carefully as possible in order to contribute back to the community that's already teaching me a ton.

If you are looking at using a salvaged Nissan Leaf and using that powerplant "stand alone" in the Beetle you could use Paul Holmes' control board to get full control of the Leaf's drive unit: https://pandspowerelectronics.ecwid...t-control-board/p/125965637/category=16287307

If you leave the Leaf's entire drivetrain intact (but rearranged) you should be able to avoid any issues with having to pair components. The problem then becomes what happens when you try to drop the voltage by rearranging cells - the Leaf BMS will shut the powertrain down for low voltage. Your best bet probably is to use just the motor and maybe the inverter, and someone else's adjustable BMS. As for keeping the pack cool: if you can find a 2015 instead of a 2014, that gives you the "Lizard Pack" which is the most heat-resistant pack that Nissan has produced to date. It can still be 'cooked' but not as easily as the earlier 'Canary' (2011-3/2013) or 'Wolf' (4/2013 through 2014) packs. Just using a 2015 pack instead of a 2014 could mean you wouldn't need to do anything extreme about cooling it.

LeftieBiker said:

If you leave the Leaf's entire drivetrain intact (but rearranged) you should be able to avoid any issues with having to pair components. The problem then becomes what happens when you try to drop the voltage by rearranging cells - the Leaf BMS will shut the powertrain down for low voltage. Your best bet probably is to use just the motor and maybe the inverter, and someone else's adjustable BMS. As for keeping the pack cool: if you can find a 2015 instead of a 2014, that gives you the "Lizard Pack" which is the most heat-resistant pack that Nissan has produced to date. It can still be 'cooked' but not as easily as the earlier 'Canary' (2011-3/2013) or 'Wolf' (4/2013 through 2014) packs. Just using a 2015 pack instead of a 2014 could mean you wouldn't need to do anything extreme about cooling it.

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Thanks! I thought the lizard packs when in the 2014 model year. Seems I noted it incorrectly in my research and planning docs. Thanks for correcting it.

I don't think I can fit the drivetrain intact in a VW Beetle. It was a brief thought, but added a lot of questions and hurdles that I wasn't looking forward to...

SlowCo said:

If you are looking at using a salvaged Nissan Leaf and using that powerplant "stand alone" in the Beetle you could use Paul Holmes' control board to get full control of the Leaf's drive unit: https://pandspowerelectronics.ecwid...t-control-board/p/125965637/category=16287307

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Thats the plan. My concern is if I undervolt, how it would affect the inverter and the motor itself.

I researched undervoltage on AC motors last night, and it seems there's a drop in efficiency, and it CAN be damaging if the motor is running a normal load. However, this motor seems built like a TANK and my build will be under 2000lbs whereas its hauling a 3500lb Leaf normally. I'm thinking (and hoping) the undervoltage will be ok. My other concern about it is I don't want to add a liquid cooling system if I can help it, but I think the leaf inverter and motor are both liquid-cooled. Not sure if I can get away with modifying for air-cooling or not...

One of the things I'm a little wary about with that Paul Holmes control board...anything digital in regards to electronics is well outside my wheelhouse, and I'm not seeing any "dummy" guides for making it work. I'm strictly analog (and mostly in regards to audio applications and signal theory) when it comes to electronics. Are there any guides that dumb it down enough that a reasonably intelligent person could get it going?

The radiator used to cool the inverter/charger/PDM "stack" is pretty small. You might be able to put it and the two small pumps used in the nose of the Beetle. I wouldn't try to run it without liquid cooling. You'd be better off just using the motor in that case. I don't know how undervolting the motor would affect it...

dbargaehr said:

Thats the plan. My concern is if I undervolt, how it would affect the inverter and the motor itself.

I researched undervoltage on AC motors last night, and it seems there's a drop in efficiency, and it CAN be damaging if the motor is running a normal load.

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Beware that a lot of the information you might be finding is specific to traditional industrial AC induction (asynchronous) motors. These can be strange beasts, like how they draw *more* current when applied voltage is *decreased* which is the opposite of brushed and BLDC motors. I believe the Leaf motor is the latter type and, unless there's something different about it compared to smaller, common and garden BLDC motors, low voltage should be fine: it will just limit top speed and current/torque at higher speeds.

Awesome sounding project by the way :thumb:

Punx0r said:

dbargaehr said:

Thats the plan. My concern is if I undervolt, how it would affect the inverter and the motor itself.

I researched undervoltage on AC motors last night, and it seems there's a drop in efficiency, and it CAN be damaging if the motor is running a normal load.

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Beware that a lot of the information you might be finding is specific to traditional industrial AC induction (asynchronous) motors. These can be strange beasts, like how they draw *more* current when applied voltage is *decreased* which is the opposite of brushed and BLDC motors. I believe the Leaf motor is the latter type and, unless there's something different about it compared to smaller, common and garden BLDC motors, low voltage should be fine: it will just limit top speed and current/torque at higher speeds.

Awesome sounding project by the way :thumb:

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Thanks! I wasn't aware of the distinction in AC motors. All my EE knowledge is related to audio. you really DON'T want to run motors next to studio microphones, which is why at good studios anything with a motor (fans, AC, refrigerators) are on separate isolated circuits from anything audio-related. (although you'd be amazed at some of the crappy age-old wiring in some world-class studios!)

Many people are getting 65mph+ on Warp 9 motors, and I think EVwest says their AC-50 beetle conversion kit can do 100+mph (which would feel like Ludicrous Speed in a Beetle, I suspect). If I undervolt the motor, I'm hoping it will solve some problems with the motor producing more force than perhaps the Beetle transaxle can handle. (I know next to nothing about gearboxes, so perhaps this is an incredibly ignorant statement).

LeftieBiker said:

The radiator used to cool the inverter/charger/PDM "stack" is pretty small. You might be able to put it and the two small pumps used in the nose of the Beetle. I wouldn't try to run it without liquid cooling. You'd be better off just using the motor in that case. I don't know how undervolting the motor would affect it...

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part of my issue with using a radiator in the nose would be 1) I'm trying to cram 24kWh of batteries (or maybe more!) in a Beetle, which will be no mean feat and 2) I'm really trying to leave the exterior aesthetics completely intact, and I'd think a radiator would require some sort of fan and exposure to the exterior...although thinking out loud here, the only thing I could think would be to lay the radiator flat in the wheel-well, and have the fan/grill mounted so it's pulling air from under the body. I'm worried about what that could do to an already crappy drag coefficient, but that might just be needless fretting.

If I do use a liquid cooling system, I bet I could somehow integrate it with the passively-cooled battery packs in the Leaf. There's one more project to tackle, ha!

I also wonder - how much power consumption are we talking to add liquid cooling? What kind of extra capacity should I add to the battery pack in order to keep the 12V going for the liquid cooling system? (I assume it runs off the 12V).

Thanks for the encouragement. I know part of this forum is pushing the envelope, and I want to contribute to that a bit. Build thread is on DIYelectriccar forums. Might keep it updated here too. I started it on The Samba, but it's amazing how offended some guys are to the idea of "gutting" a VW by taking out the original engine.

I suppose it might be possible to use a de-rated Leaf motor with a Beetle gearbox. They did have motor kits to go up to 200HP with the VW motor, after all...you might want to try to program the controller to "soften" the torque, though.

dbargaehr said:

If I undervolt the motor, I'm hoping it will solve some problems with the motor producing more force than perhaps the Beetle transaxle can handle. (I know next to nothing about gearboxes, so perhaps this is an incredibly ignorant statement).

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I'd bet that some of the people that have converted various Beetles could tell you about what they did that broke their transaxles, so you could avoid that. DIYElectricCar may still have some of the conversion threads I'd read years back, and I remember one that had a broken transaxle, though I can't remember if he got the car that way or broke it after conversion.

IIRC, Methods here on ES did a Beetle conversion, but I don't recall the details.

I think it was Oatnet here on ES that did a VW van conversion; probably different transaxle/etc but same basic layout (rear engine), if I'm remembering my uncle's old camper van correctly.


However...as long as you set things up so you always have a "soft start", ramping torque up rather than slamming it on like a drag racer, you probably won't have any issues with that. I'm not an engineer, of course, so you'd have to check what the actual limits of the transaxle are and stay within them.

part of my issue with using a radiator in the nose would be 1) I'm trying to cram 24kWh of batteries (or maybe more!) in a Beetle, which will be no mean feat

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Depending on the kind of cells you use, and packaging for them, and busbars/wiring, I expect that's going to take the whole trunk plus whatever gas tank space there was, plus some of the rear passenger space. You might fit some in the engine compartment, but I think you will end up using all of that for the motor/controller/wiring.

2) I'm really trying to leave the exterior aesthetics completely intact, and I'd think a radiator would require some sort of fan and exposure to the exterior...although thinking out loud here, the only thing I could think would be to lay the radiator flat in the wheel-well, and have the fan/grill mounted so it's pulling air from under the body. I'm worried about what that could do to an already crappy drag coefficient, but that might just be needless fretting.

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The original engine was air cooled with a fan at the back, IIRC, and ducted air from a grille below the rear window. You might be able to leverage that to duct air thru a long thin radiator just inside that grille. It doens't take much airflow to be better than no airflow.

You could also simply put a good heatsink on the controller itself, with as much surface area as possible, and ensure it is in the undercarriage airflow, below the motor, or beside it, and also put some high-volume fans on it that increase in speed as temperature goes up (that way they don't use power till it's needed).


An indirect liquid cooling system is less efficient than a direct-airflow system at removing the heat, because it has to "move it twice", but it has more thermal mass to absorb heat spikes with, at least until the liquid boils off. :/ It also adds volume and mass to the vehicle, though that can be small if there's not a great deal of heat to get rid of.

An advantage to a liquid cooling system is that like many regular ICE cars you can use the waste heat to warm up the passenger cabin if it's cold. Electric heaters work better at that but are less efficient (since the other heat is already wasted power, so reusing it saves a bit of your battery).



You can increase the aero a little bit by adding a cover plate under the chassis to smooth it out down there, if you are using ducted or liquid cooling for the motor/controller. Some EV conversions (and even just ICE cars) have done this and it can help enough to be worth it, but I don't have any details about it. You can probably make it so it doesn't show from anywhere but underneath. Would make more difference with wheel well covers but that would affect hte appearance significantly.

amberwolf said:

I'd bet that some of the people that have converted various Beetles could tell you about what they did that broke their transaxles, so you could avoid that. DIYElectricCar may still have some of the conversion threads I'd read years back, and I remember one that had a broken transaxle, though I can't remember if he got the car that way or broke it after conversion.

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The Nissan Leaf motors provide 236 lb-ft of torque; the VW 1600 provided 81.7 lb-ft at its max. That's a BIG difference. Obviously by undervolting the motor, I would be reducing torque significantly. I did notice that this guys "Super Fast Beetle" he had a custom gearbox made for it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqVzMysSgpM

He has a WarP 9. Not sure the torque he's producing on a 135V system...he said in his EV album he's pulling >700A at times.

Obviously we're not driving it like it's a drag racer. it's for mileage, not performance.

amberwolf said:

However...as long as you set things up so you always have a "soft start", ramping torque up rather than slamming it on like a drag racer, you probably won't have any issues with that. I'm not an engineer, of course, so you'd have to check what the actual limits of the transaxle are and stay within them.

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I'll look into soft starting for sure. I assume this has to do with controller programming along with the throttle control?

amberwolf said:

Depending on the kind of cells you use, and packaging for them, and busbars/wiring, I expect that's going to take the whole trunk plus whatever gas tank space there was, plus some of the rear passenger space. You might fit some in the engine compartment, but I think you will end up using all of that for the motor/controller/wiring.

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It's possible that it'll take up that much space, but I'm surprised with how much space is left on some folks' conversions. The parcel shelf behind the rear seat usually takes about 1/3rd of the batteries, and the frunk takes the remaining 2/3. The Nissan batteries aren't exactly as energy-dense as Tesla and others (I think the Nissan batteries are 1/2 the weight of Tesla yet only 1/3 of the capacity). The final # of cells probably depends on the quality of cells I get with the salvage. Obviously the more sells, the less DoD on 50ish mile drives (will be common out here near LA, unfortunately). Also, it's amazing that more people don't utilize the space to the left and right of the motor for extra batteries.

amberwolf said:

The original engine was air cooled with a fan at the back, IIRC, and ducted air from a grille below the rear window. You might be able to leverage that to duct air thru a long thin radiator just inside that grille. It doens't take much airflow to be better than no airflow.

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The motor will get a fair amount of undercarriage flow as it is. Mounted directly to the trans, it will get plenty of undercarriage flow.

You can increase the aero a little bit by adding a cover plate under the chassis to smooth it out down there, if you are using ducted or liquid cooling for the motor/controller. Some EV conversions (and even just ICE cars) have done this and it can help enough to be worth it, but I don't have any details about it. You can probably make it so it doesn't show from anywhere but underneath. Would make more difference with wheel well covers but that would affect hte appearance significantly.

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Cover plate is a good idea, but probably outside our budget for now. If we did that, I suspect I'd fabricate it myself entirely. I'm rather excited to weld. I'm just doing MIG...I like to think of it as "big soldering", and I'm great at soldering, ergo... The cover plate definitely something that can be an addon later. I'm also hoping to get a smallish 3-axis CNC machine at some point for the office for prototyping and some fab work for my mics. It's amazing what they cost nowadays. Hoping I can utilize that at some point. I'm going to need to fab a coupler anyways.

I think at this point, undervolting/de-rating the motor is the way to go. I'll have to definitely play with the controller programming to soft-start, etc. and a byproduct of that is figuring out how to play with controller programming one hurdle at a time, Derek. For now, my next step is probably just to take the freakin' leap and get a salvage 2015+ Leaf with an intact drivetrain and battery pack, and figure out the details as I go. Once I'm in, I'm in.

Thanks for the suggestions and please keep them coming. My learning method is usually just to sponge up knowledge from places like this and let my brain sort it. Eventually I have passable skillset and knowledge base to do the thing.

I suppose it might be possible to use a de-rated Leaf motor with a Beetle gearbox. They did have motor kits to go up to 200HP with the VW motor, after all...you might want to try to program the controller to "soften" the torque, though.

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Wow, I had no idea. I can just picture myself taking this thing on a drive and turning the transaxle into confetti. At least the gearboxes are relatively cheap if I blow one up.

dbargaehr said:

The Nissan Leaf motors provide 236 lb-ft of torque

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*can* provide...doesn't have to. Depends on how much power you push thru it with the controller.

Undervolting might help, but you'd have to undervolt it to about 1/3 of the original voltage, to get it down to the levels the orgiinal motor was at, if my so-called "math" skills are working.

The original controller may not be able to operate that low (I know nothing about it, but there are some threads here on ES about it, which you've probably already found).

There are a few ways to "tame" the throttle, from as primitive as simply adding an RC filter (like a low-pass audio filter) to slow down the ramp-up for any lead-foot problems, to as complexly programmable as the Cycle Analyst High Current / High Voltage model from Grin Tech http://ebikes.ca which can be used to limit various things, from throttle ramp up / down, to current, speed, etc.

There are also devices like the Throttle Tamer by ZombieSS that has adjustable ramping, better than the RC filter but it's not as versatile as the CA can be.

The controller may also be programmable for this sort of thing. Some (many?) of the commercially-available higher-power controllers are programmable, if the leaf's is not, and the other solutions above arent' what you want.

Also, if the controller's throttle control is done as a "torque" throttle, or "current" throttle, then you can also limit the total throttle voltage input, so it can't reach excessive torque levels.

(The CA also has a mode to simulate this for controllers that just do PWM or "speed" control)

I did notice that this guys "Super Fast Beetle" he had a custom gearbox made for it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqVzMysSgpM

He has a WarP 9. Not sure the torque he's producing on a 135V system...he said in his EV album he's pulling >700A at times.

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But he's putting more power thru the drivetrain than you need to. IIUC, all you're after is what it could already do originally, right?

If you want faster starts off the line, then you'll need more torque than it originally was made for, but if you're just looking for similar acceleration as original, it should be fine with a ramping-up throttle.

The final # of cells probably depends on the quality of cells I get with the salvage.

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True, it depends also on their original C-rate spec, and capacity.

I'm using old EIG NMC 20Ah cells (I think originally from a Zero MC, but they're second or third hand, so dunno for sure) on my SB Cruiser trike, as a 14s2p pack. I'm not even pullng 1C from them most of the time, and even at max I don't think it's more than 3.5-4C; they're 5C capable continuously and 10C burst. I'm not using them liek you would in a car, but tey're used every day for my commute, etc. (SBC *is* my transportation).

If you can find a source for them, they're good cells, and they handle "abuse" fairly well. (haven't had any dramatic failures despite accidentally draining one small 4s pack to zero, and later actually draining one cell in a 4s pack so far it was reversed in voltage--it swelled up but no other failures. The first pack was actually rechargeable and still worked for years; I still use it on my brother's trike for lighting). They have remained balanced with no BMS, so they're well-matched / had good quality control in manufacturing.

The motor will get a fair amount of undercarriage flow as it is. Mounted directly to the trans, it will get plenty of undercarriage flow.

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My suggestion about using that grille was meant to be for the radiator for a liquid cooled controller (or whatever), not the motor itself (unless it needs it).

Cover plate is a good idea, but probably outside our budget for now. If we did that, I suspect I'd fabricate it myself entirely.

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FWIW, you can use plastics (even coroplast), which is cheap and easy to work with. If there are places to put rivnuts (or directly thread holes in the sheet metal), you can screw it down as thoroughly as necessary so it cant' come off at highway speeds.

I'm pretty sure someone did that for the undercarriage cover on a conversion on DIYEC some years back, but I don't remember which one anymore.

I sold my last VW in 1999. A 1974 SB Convertible, and a 1970 Van. I sold them after a critical accident with a Camry.
I now consider a SB or any Bug as more of a four wheeled motorcycle. One that NO ONE will insure for a reasonable price. Don’t get me wrong..I’d love it. a dream car, but there are obstacles.

Limiting system voltage to try and limit motor torque might not work in a way that leaves you with sufficient top speed. Motor controllers can produce very high phase (motor) currents at low voltage when motor speed (and BEMF) is low by functioning like a buck converter. I fear you might find that your motor could still produce close to rated starting torque when pulling away even if you limited battery voltage to a level where you're struggling to achieve a useable top speed.

Current-limiting, either with a programmable controller or an additional control in the throttle circuit, as Amberwolf suggests, might be more efficacious.

I think you're right to be concerned about the standard transaxle, especially as for the same peak horsepower an electric motor tends to be a lot torquier than an ICE and torque is what breaks transmissions. However, I think you're also right to lean on the experience of previous VW EV conversions and ICE tuning as a guide to what it can take.

I think that, given the space limitations and your desire to have less power from the motor (possibly with good reason), you need to give up on the idea of using a Leaf pack, at least as-configured and with a Leaf BMS. You need to either build a separate pack with a third party controller, or use Leaf modules without the Leaf BMS, to build a custom pack, and again use a completely different controller. The problem you have locked yourself into is in deciding that you need 24 kwh of cells to get the range and speed you need. That just isn't going to happen with large-format cells and a VW Beetle body.

Not to try to rewrite your whole project, but: when VW came out with its latest in a seemingly-endless series of vaporware vehicles, an EV van, the crowd went wild. You almost certainly COULD do what you desire if you used a VW van as the basis, and a 2015 (or 2016 24kwh) Leaf donor. It would still be hellish to get that whole drivetrain in there, but it should at least be POSSIBLE...

:lol:
First I thought you were very sensible to use a complete salvaged Nissan Leaf. But then I read that you're thinking of using the Beetle transaxle gearbox and mating the Leaf motor to it? Why on earth would you want to do that if you can just mount the complete drive train (including the gear reduction and drive shafts) of the Leaf and replace the motor and gearbox of the VW? You might need to relocate the PDM for clearance but then you have the complete drive train and battery pack (original voltage) that can handle what it's made for...

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You might also want to follow/research/contact some of the following custom builders of VW electric conversions:

• http://www.zelectricmotors.com/

• http://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40

At the very least you might get some ideas.

Good luck!
Michael

SlowCo said:

:lol:
First I thought you were very sensible to use a complete salvaged Nissan Leaf. But then I read that you're thinking of using the Beetle transaxle gearbox and mating the Leaf motor to it? Why on earth would you want to do that if you can just mount the complete drive train (including the gear reduction and drive shafts) of the Leaf and replace the motor and gearbox of the VW? You might need to relocate the PDM for clearance but then you have the complete drive train and battery pack (original voltage) that can handle what it's made for...

Nissan-Leaf-2018-1600-59.jpg

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Has anybody done this? This sounds ideal. I'm new to the EV thread, Just purchased my 65beetle, it's broken twice, transmission related, would love to put the nissan motor and drivetrain to work and bypass the existing transmission. If anyone has seen this done I'd love to find out who and how. In the meantime I'll google search away and share what I find out.