New Throttle / controller hookup question

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Jonny333   1 W

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New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 12 2019 5:34pm

Hi guys
I just got my new brushed 12v controller and throttle in. I’ve hooked all up, except a couple of loose ends. Please let me know what you think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV3zsVR ... e=youtu.be

Edit: Can’t seem to upload photos here. The only documentation on the controller is a photo on my phone with the mysterious blue and black wires labeled simply “brake”.
Here are links to the 2 parts:

¥ 981 38% Off | 12V-84V Electric Bike Half Twist Throttle E-bike Scooter Grip Handlebar with LED Display Key Knock Electric Bicycle Accessories
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/YxLqCYC

¥ 3,300 | E bike conversion kit 12V 250W electric bicycle brush motor speed for e scooter electric bike accessories DIY electric kit
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/c1uZSUq4

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by paul fortman » Jan 12 2019 5:43pm

In the video it looks like you've put black to red on the throttle wires?

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 12 2019 6:49pm

No, those included plugs don’t match up, so I’m going to pull each wire and solder them up to the proper colors.

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 12 2019 6:55pm

Just to clarify, I’m converting an old 12v brushed kids kickboard to a new twist throttle and controller. The advantage is a graduated throttle, battery voltage readout, and I hope some volt/amp protections (not sure the controller has any of this last feature).

I think I’ve got it mostly figured out except for the following:
1) The blue and black wires on the controller simply labeled “brake“.
2) yellow and blue wires coming out of the throttle.
3) The old brake handle has an electric circuit to kill the motor when you pull the brake. These are a red and white wire that feed in to the primitive throttle and battery voltage indicator, also on the handlebars. This in turn has three wires red black and yellow that feed into the original controller. Is it possible to use the original mechanism/wires in someway?

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by AussieRider » Jan 13 2019 6:35am

The blue & black "brake" wires would be for e-brake. When shorted, the motor stops until the short is removed. If the switch on your brake lever tests open when released & short circuit when pulled, you could use it.

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 13 2019 7:25am

Would the throttles key lock mechanism (power on/off switch) also be wired through this same “brake” circuit?

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 13 2019 3:38pm

I’ve gotten everything working, with the exception of the brake and key mechanism.
I connected the two wires coming out of the brake handle into the controller’s blue and black wires labeled “brake”. No effect when the brake lever is depressed. I tried swapping the wires, also no effect. Does simply shorting these controller wires ( connecting them to each other) cause the motor to stop?
I have not attempted to hook up the blue wire coming out of the new throttle mechanism labeled for “lock”, etc. I could try connecting it to the controllers blue “brake” wire, however there is no ground to match. I also think having the motor turn off if the brake handle is depressed is more important. At this point, physically turn the key changes nothing except shutting off the voltage display. This “lock” cable says it can also be hooked up to ‘power’, but does not say the voltage (12v direct to battery like the yellow voltage display wire next to it?).

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 13 2019 7:51pm

DO NOT use the blue wire coming from your new throttle assembly as this should have 12vdc+ voltage on it when the key is in the 'ON' position being on the switched side of the key switch. Same as the input to your voltage indicator...). Not what you want. :shock:
AussieRider wrote:
Jan 13 2019 6:35am
The blue & black "brake" wires would be for e-brake. When shorted, the motor stops until the short is removed. If the switch on your brake lever tests open when released & short circuit when pulled, you could use it.
AussieRider
^^^^This is what you want.^^^^
A normally open brake switch that closes when the brakes are actuated. Connected to your low E-brake Blue and Black wires.
From the way your original wiring sounds I would speculate that it's a normally closed switch wired in series with ether your throttle's input or output... Check the Red and White wire for continuity and see. If you can get into the interior perhaps the switch has another connection that would be opposite of how it works now. (SPDT)
I agree with you that using your brake lever would be the best. And there are kits that would allow you to do it.

https://lunacycle.com/bafang-hydraulic- ... rake-pair/

As well as using a reed switch and magnet.

Some opt for easier and just use a momentary switch or button like that as used for a horn.
The voltage (<5vdc) and amperage(< 40mA) used in the low brake system is very low and can be handle by most any switch.
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 14 2019 8:51am

Just to clarify, the blue key lock wire Coming from the throttle, should be connected to 12 V positive from the battery? Or should it be left unused? As this controller has no input for a “lock”, is the key then a useless feature?
And the blue and black “brake” wires coming from the controller can be connected to any kind of shorting mechanism in the brake handle (ie switch)? I tested shorting them, and they work as you describe. If the lock feature is useless, is there anyway to connect it in-line with the brake’s motor cut off switch (Assuming I can get that working)?
The original brake mechanism shows no continuity no matter what I do, it’s always a broken circuit. The two wires are connected to a nice little blue pressure switch inside the brake handle that releases when you pull the handle. Works great when plugged into original equipment.
I’m going to assume this new throttle cannot be used with the old speed controller?

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 14 2019 5:18pm

Jonny333 wrote:
Jan 14 2019 8:51am
Just to clarify, the blue key lock wire Coming from the throttle, should be connected to 12 V positive from the battery? Or should it be left unused?

It is wired in on the output side of the key switch same as the input to the led voltage display. Do not connect it to 12vdc + battery power. No need.

As this controller has no input for a “lock”, is the key then a useless feature?

Well for one it should turn power off and on to the LED voltage display. But the output on the blue wire (12vdc+) when turned on could power a contactor which in turn could be used to provide power from the battery.

And the blue and black “brake” wires coming from the controller can be connected to any kind of shorting mechanism in the brake handle (ie switch)? I tested shorting them, and they work as you describe.

Yes, closes when brake applied. Good to verify.

If the lock feature is useless, is there anyway to connect it in-line with the brake’s motor cut off switch (Assuming I can get that working)?

Not as wired now but anything is possible. What would be your goal?

The original brake mechanism shows no continuity no matter what I do, it’s always a broken circuit. The two wires are connected to a nice little blue pressure switch inside the brake handle that releases when you pull the handle. Works great when plugged into original equipment.

I'm at a loss to explain how this works with out any continuity. My throttle also has a little blue switch which is normally open and latches closed for a light switch. Perhaps one could be found that does what you need. NO, closes on release...

I’m going to assume this new throttle cannot be used with the old speed controller?

Was your old throttle a hall sensor throttle? If so it can be... but why go back?
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 16 2019 6:11am

Cheers, I’m going to try take a look tonight. I’m guessing this is the controller I should of gotten. I passed it up due to no “throttle”, but I’ll assume they mislabeled as “derailleur” for some reason:
250W DC 12V brush motor speed controller, speed control, electric bicycle controller
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/ci4x3xlQ

Anyway, looks like the one I got will work. I’ll take apart the brake assemble to test.
The lack of key “lock” is unfortunate, as kids will be useing it, and the led display shuts down, but throttle is still live. Thus my idea to loop it in with “brake”, thus cutting motor power AND led when the key is removed.
There is no charge port, but it’s ok, as I’ll manually pull the battery plug every time and charge. This should avoid any phantom load issues as well that may be present in such a cheap controller.
Regarding the old stuff, just wanted a backup if something goes wrong. Not sure what a HAL looks like, but this is a 20 year old trigger, so maybe not.

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 16 2019 9:37am

For a controller that gives you what you want for less than $10. I'd find that hard to pass up. I agree that product descriptions and wiring support is abysmal. Your need for a total lock-out warrants it.

This is what a hall sensor looks like...

Image

An easy way to test for one would be to check for resistance on the throttle leads (no power). If you get a resistance that changes when the throttle is rotated, you have a potentiometer type throttle and not a hall sensor one.

For more about hall sensor throttles check out my thread about them HERE...
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 16 2019 12:39pm

Yes I agree it’s very cheap. It will just take a couple of weeks to get here though, and I thought there might be a workaround.
I spent a couple of hours messing around with it tonight, and discovered the brake problem. Somewhere along the line the brake handle momentary contact switch had snapped off a wire lead at the base. I tried many times to salder it and install it, or rig a decent replacement from a couple similar ones I found in a junked CD pmayer, but it’s just too small and the tolerance is too tight. I’ll have to track one down ( again, hope to avoid shipping). 8mm, and looks like this:
https://www.taydaelectronics.com/push-b ... 7x7mm.html

I was interested if the old controller would except a hal sensor throttle. It has three pins, but I believe that’s just because it includes a voltage sensor display, the brake wire, as well as the trigger throttle. The other aspects that gave it value, such as a resetable fuse/shunt that protected the motor from over amping, and a charge port, have been destroyed I guess, so no real point I.
Thanks for your help.

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 20 2019 2:18pm

Well, that was disappointing.
I got everything properly soldered and put back together, and the test runs feel like they’re giving me about half as much power as before. It almost doesn’t move me. Controller gets slightly warm. I checked for poor connections and everything seems solid. Motor stays cool. Controller is not cutting out due to some safety or otherwise, as the voltmeter shows it’s continuing to draw the full current even when stopped with throttle full open. It’s pretty much useless to us like this though.
I’m guessing either the controller cannot deliver enough watts, or (less likely) there’s something wrong with the throttle and it’s not sending a full signal. The controller is rated for 250 W, and my motor is rated for 180W if I recall correctly.
With my old modified controller, it appeared to be delivering as much wattage as the motor could handle. After about half an hour of moderately heavy usage the motor was quite warm. Still felt like it was a good balance for this system. If I just could’ve used this new throttle with the voltage display, it would’ve been perfect. Kind of regret tearing it all apart now.

Btw, I’ve got the brake switch on order, will take 2+ weeks to get here.

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 20 2019 5:09pm

Jonny333 wrote:
Jan 20 2019 2:18pm
...as the voltmeter shows it’s continuing to draw the full current even when stopped with throttle full open.

Close to 21 amps?

Hall throttle max output ~ 4 vdc?
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 21 2019 5:18am

I meant that the voltage drop continues without any kind of breaker engaging when the wheel is jammed (full draw). I’ll try to measure both outputs you mentioned. In the case of the hall throttle, where do I put my voltmeters negative probe?

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 21 2019 9:07am

Jonny333 wrote:
Jan 21 2019 5:18am
In the case of the hall throttle, where do I put my voltmeters negative probe?

On battery negative terminal. (0vdc-ground) See link below...

https://electricscooterparts.com/thrott ... guide.html
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 21 2019 12:24pm

Thanks for the link Tommycat, that’s helpful.

Throttle powerline about 4.09v.
Throttle signal line from about 0.87v - 3.4v

About 9.5v full throttle (leads into motor).
About 10 Amps full throttle (leads into motor).

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 22 2019 11:02am

I take it these low readings are problematic? If so, is the throttle or controller likely the issue? Should I order a new one(s), or is this low output the norm?

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 22 2019 11:48am

The throttle power line seems low... but your getting the output numbers I would expect from it. May be a tad low, but not near calling for the half amp draw amount your pulling.
Just to be sure, if you carefully bypass the throttle directly by putting the full 4vdc to the output signal line to check. And see if it makes a difference which I doubt.
What is the battery voltage output under full load? (before the controller) Is it sagging that much? As it was pulling hard before, the controller would be suspect. But I know nothing of sensor less controllers...
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 22 2019 1:34pm

So I would just remove the insulation over my new solder joints on the signal and throttle power wires ( in this case red and green ) and join them to get full 4.09v, which will accomplish the bypass?

Not sure I follow the voltage drop.
Running at full throttle with wheel in the air, the pre-controller voltage is equal to the throttles led display - drops from about 12.5v to about 12.2v. If I jam the wheel briefly (overload), drops a bit more.
Doing the same post controller (2 motor input wires), I get zero volts then about 9.5v. Jamming the wheel it rapidly drops to zero volts.
This voltage is way too low.
On the old controller, the ceramic shunt/fuse appeared to have worn out, so I got about 6v, same problem as now, only worse, absolutely no ability to move the scooter. After cutting out the ceramic fuse thing and just connecting the wires directly, I was getting a full 12 V to the motor and the power was great. However there was no safety cut out now, So I could see the possibility to overheat the motor if you didn’t watch it.
This new controller appears to have no safety cut outs of any kind.
I didn’t test the old controller under load to see what voltage drop there was. However, the rudimentary green yellow red LED voltage indicator on the handlebar would usually drop right down to red when you hit the throttle full under load. This tells me it must’ve been dropping quite low when you put it under load and then it would creep back up naturally to green when you let off the throttle.

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 22 2019 1:46pm

Jonny333 wrote:
Jan 22 2019 1:34pm
So I would just remove the insulation over my new solder joints on the signal and throttle power wires ( in this case red and green ) and join them to get full 4.09v, which will accomplish the bypass?
Yes that should do it. Note: some controllers will see the higher input throttle voltage as a fault on start. I think yours is low enough to get by.

I agree there seems to be too much voltage drop across the controller. 12.2 in … 9.5 out.
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 22 2019 2:53pm

Well that certainly helped. The motor output voltage jumped to about 11.75. Motor is much stronger. Handlebar LED reads slightly higher voltage around 12.0v or so. May be my imagination, but it still doesn’t feel quite as much torque as the old controller had.
By the way, I noticed the twist grip has a dead zone for maybe the first 20° of twist before it kicks in. It maybe possible something in the cheap mechanics are offset.

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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by TommyCat » Jan 22 2019 4:56pm

Jonny333 wrote:
Jan 22 2019 2:53pm
By the way, I noticed the twist grip has a dead zone for maybe the first 20° of twist before it kicks in. It maybe possible something in the cheap mechanics are offset.
Definitely encouraging! :)

I would definitely look for magnet/hall sensor misalignment to start with. And double check the input voltage, did it change with the jumper? Or removal of the throttle from the circuit? Good wiring connections? The starting dead zone can be fixed with a resistor. (pot) But the ending voltage is dependant on the input voltage. (...the closer to 5vdc supply, the better.)
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Re: New Throttle / controller hookup question

Post by Jonny333 » Jan 23 2019 6:22am

TommyCat wrote:
Jan 22 2019 4:56pm

I would definitely look for magnet/hall sensor misalignment to start with. And double check the input voltage, did it change with the jumper?

Sorry, where (which wire) would I test this exactly? You mean double check it’s still 4.09v?

Or removal of the throttle from the circuit?
Not sure what you mean. I kept all wires still connected. You mean to cut all throttle wires?

Good wiring connections?
You mean double check all soldering etc?

The starting dead zone can be fixed with a resistor. (pot) But the ending voltage is dependant on the input voltage. (...the closer to 5vdc supply, the better.)
It seems to not exceed 4.09v. Would a new controller be the answer?

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