Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

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nzxcel   1 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by nzxcel » Nov 09 2020 8:29pm

I found this thread while searching for a solution to my Phaserunner MT cutting out connected to a BBSHD. When I connected my controller to the Phaserunner suite, it was reading an "Instantaneous phase overcurrent" fault. I have seen others with the same problem and I've found a solution to it.

After running a simulation through the Grin Motor Simulator with my configuration, I noticed that at low speeds the phase current is at its highest and will reach the maximum 96A. The Phaserunner has a hard fault current limit which seems to also be at 96A. The issue presents itself when you set your phase current limit close to the maximum of 96A. I believe the throttling for the phase current limit you specify is not flat enough to keep it under the hard limit, so phase current spikes under hard acceleration at low speed will trigger a fault.

While the recommended adjustment of increasing PLL and Current Regulator settings may help with the current spikes by smoothing out the measurements, I think the solution to this problem is lowering the phase current limit to about 85A or lower. This will mean throttling will occur low enough below the hard limit that the Phaserunner will not get the "Instantaneous phase overcurrent" fault by creating a buffer zone.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Brahimahmeti » Dec 10 2020 3:36pm

hello, impossible for me to set the flagship runner and the bbshd, all the xml of this site does not work with mine. can you set me parameters please. by accelerating I have 1 buzz at the level of the runner phase, I have all tried but no way to adjust it correctly. bbshd72v.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by VRMinde » Feb 04 2021 3:31pm

Brahimahmeti wrote:
Dec 10 2020 3:36pm
hello, impossible for me to set the flagship runner and the bbshd, all the xml of this site does not work with mine. can you set me parameters please. by accelerating I have 1 buzz at the level of the runner phase, I have all tried but no way to adjust it correctly. bbshd72v.
I read that thread and tried the XML settings file, but still getting the same error.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Bumphrey Hogart » Feb 07 2021 9:28am

I'm considering putting a phase runner /CA3 on my BBSHD. Whats the concensus? People happy with them or kind of introduced other problems?

I just don't want to take a good running bike and make it more finicky.

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by amberwolf » Feb 07 2021 9:27pm

What are your needs that the PR will satisfy that the working system doesn't?

If there arent' any, then I wouldn't change anything. ;)

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Yermommy » Feb 07 2021 10:06pm

I have a Phaserunner MT and CA3 paired to an old 72v pack. It took some time to get the phaserunner settings right. I got a lot of motor stutter after doing autotune. Before I fixed it, 1/5 throttle the motor would stop as soon as it picked up the drivetrain slack. When the chain pulled against the gears, it would cut, then it would start again until it hit the chain and it would stop again. The result was a chain-breaking routine that was unrideable. I fixed it by changing some of the motor settings. If anybody needs to see my parameters, let me know.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Bumphrey Hogart » Feb 08 2021 9:28am

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 07 2021 9:27pm
What are your needs that the PR will satisfy that the working system doesn't?

If there arent' any, then I wouldn't change anything. ;)
Well that's a very valid question, my personality is typically mod everything.

Things I like is being able to slow the ramp up of power (smoother), leaving it in one or two gears and getting the same speed using field weakening. Very mountainous where I live so that extra power would come in handy and I know the motor can handle it. Eventually I'll probably go 72v.

That said I'll probably leave it as is for the time being as I dont even go above 5 out of 9 typically and usually on power 2 or 3.

Thanks for the input and the question that made me think. I've just recently built it and am blown away by how fun it is and just scratching the surface.

Then I guess possible cons, losing a nicer looking display to put the cycle analyst on, I have the C18 and really like it (CA is not horrible looking but pretty plain) Could bring some headaches in getting it setup right.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by amberwolf » Feb 08 2021 11:59am

Bumphrey Hogart wrote:
Feb 08 2021 9:28am
Well that's a very valid question, my personality is typically mod everything.
I used to do that, just to see what happens...but not everyone wants to troubleshoot things all the time, so modding everything doesn't work for everybody (hence the question). ;)
Things I like is being able to slow the ramp up of power (smoother), leaving it in one or two gears and getting the same speed using field weakening. Very mountainous where I live so that extra power would come in handy and I know the motor can handle it. Eventually I'll probably go 72v.
I'll guess you aren't pedalling with it? (because you'd likely have to physically change gears for both motor and pedals to keep up with it as it goes faster (due to the gearing change) the way it is now, but you'd be changing gears only with the motor (electrically) with FW, and the pedals wouldn't go any faster because you'd be in the same mechanical gear.

If you *are* pedalling with it, then you'd have to put in a larger front pedal chainring to compensate, which will decrease the ability to pedal at slower speeds and get the same torque (without more human torque input).

Remember that FW will generally use more power and make the motor hotter for the same usable motor output.



Then I guess possible cons, losing a nicer looking display to put the cycle analyst on, I have the C18 and really like it (CA is not horrible looking but pretty plain)
You don't have to put the CA on the handlebars. If you don't need to see it's information you can place it in the battery casing or any bags you ahve on the bike. You don't even have to use a CA if you don't want to and don't need any of the power-monitoring features, since it doesn't have anything to do with the controller itself (not like the integrated controller/display stuff like the BBSxx have), unless you want PAS.

And there are (small) ways of making a cadence-only PAS sensor to send a throttle-signal instead of cadence pulses without a CA, so it isn't *required* for that, either.

You can use a regular micro-sized bike speedo just to get speed/distance if you need that.

Etc.

Personally I like the CA and what it can do for me...but it doesn't do them quite the way I really want, and I'd have to build external hardware to fix that. So I just use it for what it *does* do while i slowly ponder how to make what I want. :)

FWIW, something that looks plain often makes a less tempting theft target. :) But almost any kind of display on a bike might be a target itself, because if they don't know wwhat it is, they only know "it must do something" and maybe it would have resale value if they just cut it off the bike real quick and sell it separately. :( (depends on the people where you live).
Could bring some headaches in getting it setup right.
That is possible with just the PR, not even involving the CA. The PR is a complex controller, so you would want to first set it up to work with your specific motor (necessary), then to do things the way you want them to happen on your specific ride conditions. Then if you need to tune it beyond it's ability to do so, you can add the CA into the mix and see if it's power/current limiting / signal/throttle processing abilities will further refine the system for you.

As long as you don't make a Basa Klanka out of it in the process, you should be good. ;)

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Bumphrey Hogart » Feb 08 2021 1:21pm

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 08 2021 11:59am
Bumphrey Hogart wrote:
Feb 08 2021 9:28am
Well that's a very valid question, my personality is typically mod everything.
I used to do that, just to see what happens...but not everyone wants to troubleshoot things all the time, so modding everything doesn't work for everybody (hence the question). ;)
Things I like is being able to slow the ramp up of power (smoother), leaving it in one or two gears and getting the same speed using field weakening. Very mountainous where I live so that extra power would come in handy and I know the motor can handle it. Eventually I'll probably go 72v.
I'll guess you aren't pedalling with it? (because you'd likely have to physically change gears for both motor and pedals to keep up with it as it goes faster (due to the gearing change) the way it is now, but you'd be changing gears only with the motor (electrically) with FW, and the pedals wouldn't go any faster because you'd be in the same mechanical gear.

If you *are* pedalling with it, then you'd have to put in a larger front pedal chainring to compensate, which will decrease the ability to pedal at slower speeds and get the same torque (without more human torque input).

Remember that FW will generally use more power and make the motor hotter for the same usable motor output.



Then I guess possible cons, losing a nicer looking display to put the cycle analyst on, I have the C18 and really like it (CA is not horrible looking but pretty plain)
You don't have to put the CA on the handlebars. If you don't need to see it's information you can place it in the battery casing or any bags you ahve on the bike. You don't even have to use a CA if you don't want to and don't need any of the power-monitoring features, since it doesn't have anything to do with the controller itself (not like the integrated controller/display stuff like the BBSxx have), unless you want PAS.

And there are (small) ways of making a cadence-only PAS sensor to send a throttle-signal instead of cadence pulses without a CA, so it isn't *required* for that, either.

You can use a regular micro-sized bike speedo just to get speed/distance if you need that.

Etc.

Personally I like the CA and what it can do for me...but it doesn't do them quite the way I really want, and I'd have to build external hardware to fix that. So I just use it for what it *does* do while i slowly ponder how to make what I want. :)

FWIW, something that looks plain often makes a less tempting theft target. :) But almost any kind of display on a bike might be a target itself, because if they don't know wwhat it is, they only know "it must do something" and maybe it would have resale value if they just cut it off the bike real quick and sell it separately. :( (depends on the people where you live).
Could bring some headaches in getting it setup right.
That is possible with just the PR, not even involving the CA. The PR is a complex controller, so you would want to first set it up to work with your specific motor (necessary), then to do things the way you want them to happen on your specific ride conditions. Then if you need to tune it beyond it's ability to do so, you can add the CA into the mix and see if it's power/current limiting / signal/throttle processing abilities will further refine the system for you.

As long as you don't make a Basa Klanka out of it in the process, you should be good. ;)
Wow, what a well written and thoughtful reply. Greatly appreciated, I do pedal and want to pedal as I still want this to be exercise even with having a motor on it. I needed to decide what I want this as, a bicycle with electric help, or an electric motorcycle that I just hang on and ride. I want the former as in how it is now, maybe down the road when the power isn't enough I'll consider upgrading but as it sits now it has plenty of power for my needs. It's a beast up steep trails and I can set it in a gear that I can both help some and the motor isn't bogging.

Maybe I can just tweak the software on the stock controller to ramp in the power more subtly in the 5-9 PAS settings not such a hammer hit of power. That's really the only thing I would want to change.

Thanks again for your advice and sharing your experience I'll just leave it as it is controller/display-wise.

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Daxxie   100 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Daxxie » Feb 09 2021 5:59am

Bumphrey Hogart wrote:
Feb 07 2021 9:28am
I'm considering putting a phase runner /CA3 on my BBSHD. Whats the concensus? People happy with them or kind of introduced
I installed one on my Bafang Ultra. There were not many other options available at the time.
Installing it is a challenge but setting it up correct... even harder. I tinkered with settings for over 2 years and I never got it perfect.
Powerfull it was but I just couldn't get it smooth. Lots of stress on drivetrain (stuttering etc..)
Field weaking is nice, you can get very high rpm but that wears down the rotor gears so quick.
I'm contacted regularly by people that ask me for settings and help, most of them are not happy with the power delivery.
A German company, Innotrace, made an aftermarket controller for the Ultra. I bought one of those and that thing is just unbelievable. Not that it has so much more power but it is so smooth. The behaviour is perfect. Engages at the correct moment. Stops immediately if you stop pedalling. It makes the Phaserunner feel like an on/off switch!

I have 3 BBSHD bikes, one with a Ludicrous 2500W controller and 2 with 2500W "50A shunt-mod" controllers.
They are great, more then enough power and still smooth.
Get yourselve a good battery and one of those controllers.
Titanium Fatbike - Bafang Ultra and Phaserunner viewtopic.php?t=96212
Emtb - Bafang Ultra G510 3500W viewtopic.php?t=109135
Dengfu E06 Fatbike Bafang Ultra viewtopic.php?f=28&t=108990&p=1614975#p1614975
Join the Bafang Ultra group on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/2323768714344360

Bumphrey Hogart   1 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Bumphrey Hogart » Feb 16 2021 1:49pm

Daxxie wrote:
Feb 09 2021 5:59am
Bumphrey Hogart wrote:
Feb 07 2021 9:28am
I'm considering putting a phase runner /CA3 on my BBSHD. Whats the concensus? People happy with them or kind of introduced


I have 3 BBSHD bikes, one with a Ludicrous 2500W controller and 2 with 2500W "50A shunt-mod" controllers.
They are great, more then enough power and still smooth.
Get yourselve a good battery and one of those controllers.
Are either of those available for purchase? I thought the luna you had to buy a bike to get that controller? Looking for something essentially plug and play.

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Daxxie   100 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Daxxie » Feb 18 2021 3:44am

Are either of those available for purchase? I thought the luna you had to buy a bike to get that controller? Looking for something essentially plug and play.
Sure I have some available. Send me a PM
Titanium Fatbike - Bafang Ultra and Phaserunner viewtopic.php?t=96212
Emtb - Bafang Ultra G510 3500W viewtopic.php?t=109135
Dengfu E06 Fatbike Bafang Ultra viewtopic.php?f=28&t=108990&p=1614975#p1614975
Join the Bafang Ultra group on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/2323768714344360

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