Ebike axle wiring

MarkJohnston · Sep 1, 2021

Hello

My ebike axle wiring is cracked as seen in the pictures. So far it doesn't look the wires are touching. However I can see the insulation is starting to crack in multiple places on the hall wiring. IMO before I start getting problems. I am especially worried that the wheel could suddenly go into reverse while at 40MPH. :shock:

I think it cracked in the first place because the axle is vibrating against the insulation but I am not sure why they would design this so crappy. I have been very careful when changing flats to make sure to lay it down non wore side.

For now I just put electrical tape over it. Thankfully I live in LA and it barely rains here.but I'd water gets in here I don't think it would be good. Please tell me what I should do. Also I don't have the time or tools to overhaul the hub and fix the wiring so please keep that in mind. I'm about to go on a tour with this ebike and want this fixed!!!

ZeroEm · Sep 22, 2021

I bought some Grin motor wire and a L1019 connector with a pig tail. I will mesure it tomorrow to see the difference. I would never try to get the outer covering thru the axel.

MarkJohnston · Sep 23, 2021

markz said:
or your lucky and have enough slack of wire inside the motor to bring the damaged wire more out and snip it off and replace.

Should I just start pulling on the cable? I can pull it out some maybe and use crimp connectors for the halls and 60 aMP screw terminals for big three phase? I don't want to damage anything...

The cheap home depot crimps are melting like putty from the phases. But they do say they can handle 187 degrees F

LewTwo · Sep 24, 2021

Home Despot has crimp connectors for 24 AWG wire ????
I just perused their web site and I must be blind because I did not see them.
The absolute smallest crimp connectors I saw were 22 AWG.

ZeroEm · Sep 24, 2021

Three motor cables: Top is just Grin's motor cable (no end) >8mm. It has 3 x 12 AWG, 7 x 24 AWG.

Middle is the matching cable for my Edge motor. The end is more like HiGo Z910 with a 6mm cable spliced to 3 x 10 AWG (5.27 mm) 7 small cables are covered.

The last or bottom is Grin's HiGo L10 or L1019 molded on to 10" of cable it is close to Grin's motor cable >8mm but measures a little less. But it is a much tighter packed cable.

Just wanted to correct that the larger cable was not run thru the axel. It was the smaller one spliced into a larger cable. Never took time to look. So will have my work cut out. Need to decide what to do about the smaller cable in the Edge. Going ahead with trying to get the L1019 pigtail thru the leafmotor's axel. Time will tell!

by ZeroEm » Sep 22 2021 9:12pm

I bought some Grin motor wire and a L1019 connector with a pig tail. I will measure it tomorrow to see the difference. I would never try to get the outer covering thru the axel.

MarkJohnston · Sep 24, 2021

Well I think I have found a fix, but I don't think it's really the high tech solution you guys would hope for. Basically I decided to run with my original idea but a bit better. I've carefully went through the wires and found the ones the axle had chewed through. I carefully use electrical tape to cover those holes. Then I covered the entire thing in plenty of tape to keep the elements out. I then took a piece of rubber and got that wedged into the axle. Then I used a zip tie so the damn thing won't flop around. The rubber should help soak up vibrations from the torque of the axle. IF the high torque of the axle has been causing this! I only use 1 torque arm on the other side. This hub motor is very low torque though. Maybe 5000 miles of torque and vibrations chewed through the wire

I am now going to use the rack eyelet on the MTB that is 2 cm higher. That should keep the panniers from hitting the wire! THe panniers don't touch the wire in their normal state but whenever I hit a bump currently they pound the wire I THINK. That's probably what's caused this because whenever I hit a bump it causes an open throttle situation. I have to use the ebrake to stop or pull power.

Basically I've done a ton of research. it looks like there are a couple extra millimeters inside my axle bore. The current stock wire is 5.5 or 6 mm. The grin tech L1019 wire is 8mm or so. Perhaps perhaps it would fit. It would be a ton of work to fit in there. I also lack a large powerful soldering iron for the windings. I am unwilling to solder wire to wire since it's IMPROPER. I suck at soldering honestly and I am unwilling to use crimp connectors inside the motor because I am scared the high heat will melt the connectors. It's a huge job and would also require re soldering the controller with the female grin connector. I definitely think I am going to f up soldering. I am just not that good at it. I much prefer crimping wires. crimping seems to last way longer under heat and vibration anyhow. Thats the ebike environment

Please let me know what you guys think. At this point i've pretty much decided that I'll just stop worrying about it and hope to get at least another 10k miles out of the motor. I'll just whip out my credit card and get a new one worst case. Only $200 for motor, LCD, controller, etc.

markz · Sep 24, 2021

Thats what I did, but my method was lazy and 99% half ass with one layer of tape and it worked for 6 months. I showed you the frayed wire in a pic on page one, but I never took a pic of the tape job.

No clear picture of it but this is close, remember its literally and inch of electrical tape, if that, not even double layered. More like just wrapped around and stuck sticky to sticky around each phase, 3 pcs of tape.
If the strands were not so stiff, I would have just snipped the wires at 3' and shoved heat shrink but that takes effort.

ZeroEm · Sep 25, 2021

Keep an eye out for used motors in the market place from other members or deals. Save your money and wait. I picked up my edge motor it was less than $200 + shipping. Need a backup so you have time to work on the one your not using.

I have avoided on working on the wiring in the Axel. Think it is time. I know some older member have done it. Looks like everyone is avoiding it now.

I have couple good crimpers with changeable dies for all kinds of crimps, you can strip off the plastic and make a nice tight crimp, then if you feel the need you can tin the wires first, crimp and put a dab of solder. Not sure solder in my motor is a good idea. Have big hands so I take my time to get all them fiddly little things together.

Is not Teflon coated wire the best way to go, if not magnet wire?

by MarkJohnston » Sep 24 2021 9:45pm

Well I think I have found a fix, but I don't think it's really the high tech solution you guys would hope for. Basically I decided to run with my original idea but a bit better. I've carefully went through the wires and found the ones the axle had chewed through. I carefully use electrical tape to cover those holes. Then I covered the entire thing in plenty of tape to keep the elements out. I then took a piece of rubber and got that wedged into the axle. Then I used a zip tie so the damn thing won't flop around. The rubber should help soak up vibrations from the torque of the axle. IF the high torque of the axle has been causing this! I only use 1 torque arm on the other side. This hub motor is very low torque though. Maybe 5000 miles of torque and vibrations chewed through the wire

I am now going to use the rack eyelet on the MTB that is 2 cm higher. That should keep the panniers from hitting the wire! THe panniers don't touch the wire in their normal state but whenever I hit a bump currently they pound the wire I THINK. That's probably what's caused this because whenever I hit a bump it causes an open throttle situation. I have to use the ebrake to stop or pull power.

Basically I've done a ton of research. it looks like there are a couple extra millimeters inside my axle bore. The current stock wire is 5.5 or 6 mm. The grin tech L1019 wire is 8mm or so. Perhaps perhaps it would fit. It would be a ton of work to fit in there. I also lack a large powerful soldering iron for the windings. I am unwilling to solder wire to wire since it's IMPROPER. I suck at soldering honestly and I am unwilling to use crimp connectors inside the motor because I am scared the high heat will melt the connectors. It's a huge job and would also require re soldering the controller with the female grin connector. I definitely think I am going to f up soldering. I am just not that good at it. I much prefer crimping wires. crimping seems to last way longer under heat and vibration anyhow. Thats the ebike environment

Please let me know what you guys think. At this point i've pretty much decided that I'll just stop worrying about it and hope to get at least another 10k miles out of the motor. I'll just whip out my credit card and get a new one worst case. Only $200 for motor, LCD, controller, etc.

LewTwo · Sep 25, 2021

a couple of points of interest:

ZeroEm said:
I have couple good crimpers with changeable dies for all kinds of crimps, you can strip off the plastic and make a nice tight crimp ...

You can purchase quality Morris "uninsulated" crimp connectors (most sizes sold on Amazon but Digikey, etc. for the ones that are not).
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GDFEP2
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AJSBF6Q
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BYY3KDB

Then you can insulate them with a high temp conformal coating:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PHGPPGP
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085G42TGS
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008OA7AWE
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07B8RY7M6

ZeroEm said:
Is not Teflon coated wire the best way to go, if not magnet wire?

Magnet wire is a "single solid" conductor. That means it can have an outside physical diameter that is up to 10% smaller than its equivalent AWG stranded counterpart. Modern Magnet wire is coated with a high temperature polymer film (probably some form of PTFE such as Teflon).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_wire

LewTwo · Sep 25, 2021

Another thought:

One can remove the core fibers from "paracord" and use the outside braid as a "fish tape" for pulling a bundle of wires. One might also use the braid as a sheath for a otherwise un-sheathed/protected bundle of wires or as sheath for a wiring harness.

Most paracord is made from Nylon which has a melting temperature of 190–350 °C (374–663 °F).
Some is made from Polyester which has a melting temperature of 160–280 °C (320–536 °F).
Some is made from a combination of the above. Nylon is probably more abrasive resistant.

There is almost an unlimited assortment of colors:
https://paracordgalaxy.com/

ZeroEm · Sep 25, 2021

Thx, fish tape should get the bundle if it would go at all. 12g phase wires should be enough for the motor. Wonder if cornstarch or some power would help reduce the friction.

Think I want to try this and see how hard it is. Have nothing but time..

by LewTwo » Sep 25 2021 2:45pm

Another thought:

One can remove the core fibers from "paracord" and use the outside braid as a "fish tape" for pulling a bundle of wires. One might also use the braid as a sheath for a otherwise un-sheathed/protected bundle of wires or as sheath for a wiring harness.

Most paracord is made from Nylon which has a melting temperature of 190–350 °C (374–663 °F).
Some is made from Polyester which has a melting temperature of 160–280 °C (320–536 °F).
Some is made from a combination of the above. Nylon is probably more abrasive resistant.

LewTwo · Sep 25, 2021

ZeroEm said:
Wonder if cornstarch or some power would help reduce the friction.

Hmmmm.... First make sure there are no residual tooling marks in the bore. One could use a bit of chord and a scrap of cloth with ruby-red grinding compound (similar to a firearm bore cleaner) to polish the bore. I think that I might use something like lithium grease rather than talc so that it leaves a permanent water resistant residue.

ZeroEm · Sep 25, 2021

Think so too, a good bore polish. May need to get another Dremel with a flexible extension. Sounds like plan.

Your not to far from me, Houston. Bet you have a boat, all the rain the past few years.

LewTwo · Sep 25, 2021

ZeroEm said:
Bet you have a boat, all the rain the past few years.

LOL ... I checked the ground elevation before I purchased the circa 1975 two story townhome. Back then they were not building residences in floodplains ... and I can always go upstairs

MarkJohnston · Sep 25, 2021

LewTwo said:
Home Despot has crimp connectors for 24 AWG wire ????
I just perused their web site and I must be blind because I did not see them.
The absolute smallest crimp connectors I saw were 22 AWG.

home DESPOT has yellow, blue, and red. But everything they sell is cheap Chinese junk (kind of like everywhere these days :x ) I don't think they can handle as much heat as they say they can. I also bought this cheap crimper from there. It hardly works and it only has three dies. Sometimes I have to use a a size down to get a tight connection, I.e. using the blue setting for a yellow, red for blue, etc. Especially when using the red ones is difficult for the small tiny chinese cheap 4 teeny tiny copper strands! :x Did I mention i suck at soldering? :lol:

My cheapo crimper.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Ratcheting-Crimper-3005CR/306884697?g_store=1048&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-VF-F_DYNM-G-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-Feed-SMART-NA-RMP-MK464343327_9016028252_FY21_1927_RM2&cm_mmc=Shopping-VF-F_DYNM-G-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-Feed-SMART-NA-RMP-MK464343327_9016028252_FY21_1927_RM2-71700000083602792-58700007073070013-92700063677501840&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkbuKBhDRARIsAALysV4n4c2mrHGg_MazAZexC-QvQCe6N7jW2d68q6o18BdDOrbefWanv4YaArNGEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

MarkJohnston · Sep 25, 2021

ZeroEm said:
Keep an eye out for used motors in the market place from other members or deals. Save your money and wait. I picked up my edge motor it was less than $200 + shipping. Need a backup so you have time to work on the one your not using.

Yeah thanks Zero, That's a good idea. I should have a back up.

ZeroEm · Sep 25, 2021

Have a crimper similar and bought another that comes in it's own box with 5-8 different dies that change out and ratchets with a lock you need to release. Each die has is wedge shaped to crimp the restraining crimp on the plastic and the bare wire crimp at the same time. But does not do the same crimps as the one you have.

Long story short, you will need the one you have then buy another one that does the rest of the smaller wires. You know they get bigger, like floor models that do 0/0 or is it 00. Tomorrow I will see the model and brand that I have. My soldering skills are not that good. need to learn more about solder. Used to pour wire rope sockets with a lead/tin mixture called Babbitt.

IWISS Quick Change Ratcheting Crimper

Think I have the one below
WISS Ratcheting Crimping Tool Set 8 PCS

Chalo · Sep 25, 2021

I have refrained from comment through most of this. What I will say now is that you need to use Teflon jacketed wire or else have a good reason you're not using it. It's both the thinnest overall insulated wire I've ever used, and the easiest to slide through a constructed channel. If you have to heat shrink anything, use Kynar/PVDF heat shrink tubing. It's really thin and tough and has high thermal and insulative performance.

(Edited to correct a mistaken material name)

ZeroEm · Sep 25, 2021

:lol: Don't refrain, let it out. You will feel better and I will learn something.

by Chalo » Sep 25 2021 10:23pm

I have refrained from comment through most of this. What I will say now is that you need to use Teflon jacketed wire or else have a good reason you're not using it. It's both the thinnest overall insulated wire I've ever used, and the easiest to slide through a constructed channel. If you have to heat shrink anything, use Kapton heat shrink tubing. It's really thin and tough and has high thermal and insulative performance.

99t4 · Sep 25, 2021

MarkJohnston said:
Sometimes I have to use a a size down to get a tight connection, I.e. using the blue setting for a yellow, red for blue, etc. Especially when using the red ones is difficult for the small tiny chinese cheap 4 teeny tiny copper strands! :x Did I mention i suck at soldering? :lol:

My cheapo crimper.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Ratcheting-Crimper-3005CR/306884697?g_store=1048&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-VF-F_DYNM-G-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-Feed-SMART-NA-RMP-MK464343327_9016028252_FY21_1927_RM2&cm_mmc=Shopping-VF-F_DYNM-G-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-Feed-SMART-NA-RMP-MK464343327_9016028252_FY21_1927_RM2-71700000083602792-58700007073070013-92700063677501840&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkbuKBhDRARIsAALysV4n4c2mrHGg_MazAZexC-QvQCe6N7jW2d68q6o18BdDOrbefWanv4YaArNGEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Klein Tools usually work pretty well. Not the best, but decent quality. Is it possible you are selecting the wrong size terminals (too large) for the size wire you are trying to crimp?

It's also possible you are using crap crimp terminals. Good ones can be hard to find, but well worth the effort.

MarkJohnston said:
Did I mention i suck at soldering? :lol:

Soldering is definitely an old-school process, not easily attainable for today's "instant gratification" society members. It takes time, practice, patience, and equipment.

LewTwo · Sep 26, 2021

MarkJohnston said:
Did I mention i suck at soldering?

Might be time to address that problem .... especially for the smaller wires.
FYI: Having quality solder makes a hell of a lot of difference as well.

LewTwo · Sep 26, 2021

Chalo said:
If you have to heat shrink anything, use Kapton heat shrink tubing.

I have not able to locate any source of heat shrink polyimide tubing.

Pray tell where you get Kapton heat shrink tubing

Chalo · Sep 26, 2021

LewTwo said:
Chalo said:

If you have to heat shrink anything, use Kapton heat shrink tubing.

Click to expand...

I have not able to locate any source of heat shrink polyimide tubing.

Pray tell where you get Kapton heat shrink tubing

Doh! I wrote Kapton (polyimide) when I was talking about Kynar (polyvinylidene fluoride). Sorry about that. I'm going to correct my post above.

You can get it at McMaster Carr and other places. https://buyheatshrink.com/shop-by-industry/aerospace-military/kynar-heat-shrink-tubing

LewTwo · Sep 26, 2021

Chalo said:
Doh! I wrote Kapton (polyimide) when I was talking about Kynar (polyvinylidene fluoride).

I do that more frequently the older I get :roll:

I am trying to replace the wiring harness for my Smart Pie V4 with a L1019 cable. I had planned on splicing it outside the hub so I cut the lead about 8 inches long. I have decided to solder it straight to the circuit board instead ... so it is a bit on the short side. Fortunately I only have about 3/4 of an inch to go through the hub. I am going to try:

1) striping the sheath/jacket back to about 1 to 1-2/2 inches from the connector
2) cut and splice one of the 12 AWG phase wires with a 20 or 24 AWG conductor
(The GM controler only needs positive and negative battery power)
3) Spiral wrap the wire bundle with 1/2 wide genuine Kapton tape.
(I call the 3rd party imitation stuff Crapon tape)

I figure the worse case scenario is that it is still too short and I have to get another cable.

MarkJohnston · Sep 26, 2021

99t4 said:
MarkJohnston said:

Sometimes I have to use a a size down to get a tight connection, I.e. using the blue setting for a yellow, red for blue, etc. Especially when using the red ones is difficult for the small tiny chinese cheap 4 teeny tiny copper strands! :x Did I mention i suck at soldering? :lol:

My cheapo crimper.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Ratcheting-Crimper-3005CR/306884697?g_store=1048&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-VF-F_DYNM-G-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-Feed-SMART-NA-RMP-MK464343327_9016028252_FY21_1927_RM2&cm_mmc=Shopping-VF-F_DYNM-G-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-Feed-SMART-NA-RMP-MK464343327_9016028252_FY21_1927_RM2-71700000083602792-58700007073070013-92700063677501840&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkbuKBhDRARIsAALysV4n4c2mrHGg_MazAZexC-QvQCe6N7jW2d68q6o18BdDOrbefWanv4YaArNGEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Click to expand...

Klein Tools usually work pretty well. Not the best, but decent quality. Is it possible you are selecting the wrong size terminals (too large) for the size wire you are trying to crimp?

It's also possible you are using crap crimp terminals. Good ones can be hard to find, but well worth the effort.

MarkJohnston said:

Did I mention i suck at soldering? :lol:

Click to expand...

Soldering is definitely an old-school process, not easily attainable for today's "instant gratification" society members. It takes time, practice, patience, and equipment.

It's both of those things. The terminals are probably junk for home use only. I.e. 700 volts only. The wires are definitely always too small for my crimp connector. But i've made it work. I've gotten decent crimps. The chinese wire is so thin that it just breaks. You're right about learning to solder.

99t4 · Sep 27, 2021

Why are you blaming the tools and materials when you are not using them correctly? As previously explained, your problems are from trying to use crimp connectors (and crimper) sized too large for your wire. YOU have the ability to get good results with the proper materials, then you don't need to blame everything around you.

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