Stealth bomber clone help

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Nov 28, 2021
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59
Hi I purchased a 26" 4.0" fat tyre 3000w motor for my Stealth bomber and o have had to fit the wheel half way into the dropouts because if I put the wheel fully seated the tyre would be rubbing significantly off the back of the swingarm and also the rear shock would rub on the tyre when compressed.
Will it be safe to ride it like this as Ive already been out and it's been fine but not sure weather it's a risk of the wheel falling out?
Thanks for any replies I appreciate it :)
 
If you can't use a smaller tire, then you can make torque plates that bolt to your dropouts to both provide disc caliper mounts centered on the new axle position (assuming you're using rear disc brake), and keep the wheel securely attached to the bike.

There are a number of threads about torque plates, torque arms, etc., including the Torque Arm Picture thread.
 
For a situation where the axle is far from seated in the dropouts, torque arms aren't the bes solution. Those are typically designed to work with the existing fully-seated axle/dropout position and may not do the same job in a situation like yours.

Torque plates, that essentially "replace" the dropouts, are more secure. You can even make clamping dropouts in them, so that even if all the axle hardware (nuts, etc) come off, the axle is still secure.

They also allow a disc brake (if you're using one) to still have the rotor sit in the caliper correctly, which it won't do if the axle isn't in the normal seated position in the dropout (the farther from seated, the worse the rotor/caliper alignment is.

The easiest most secure way (short of welding) to attach the torque plates is to bolt them to the dropouts, which may require drilling into each, and if you can tap threads into one of the holes it'll save you the nut on the end of the bolt.


How bad the problem may be (or if there even is one) depends on how far from seated the axle is, how strong the dropouts actually are against the torque further away from the fully installed position, how everything is secured together, if the dropouts are clamping or not, etc.

Also whether you use regen braking or not (because that works the axle back and forth which can loosen hardware or even pry open dropouts.

If you don't have problems, you don't need extra hardware...but if you want to be sure you don't have problems without waiting to find out, it's safer to go with the most secure option. ;)


To make anything other than educated guesses about what your situation is and what you might need to do, we'd need as much detail as you can give us about the frame, motor/axle, all installation hardware available, etc., including good pictures of everything including how it is presently installed.
 
Thanks for the info I appreciate it, also I found it out the hard way a couple of month ago when the right side of my axle snapped due to regen braking lol I wasn't expecting so much damage to the frame as I had to buy a full new swingarm and motor but at least I'm still in one piece 🤣
Do you have any ideas on where I could buy some tourqe plates or will I have to get them made specially? Thanks
 
Thanks for the info I appreciate it, also I found it out the hard way a couple of month ago when the right side of my axle snapped due to regen braking lol I wasn't expecting so much damage to the frame as I had to buy a full new swingarm and motor but at least I'm still in one piece 🤣
Do you have any ideas on where I could buy some tourqe plates or will I have to get them made specially? Thanks
 
Hi, here's some pics I could send more if needed.
The pic of the motor wire I have black tape on it just for protection lol
Also sorry for late reply.
 

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Yeah, your dropouts are already damaged and spread out (or they aren't made right in the first place), which is why your axle is sitting in there at an angle.

It should sit flat in there with the flat faces of the axle against the flat faces of the dropouts, and not be able to rock back and forth *at all*, in undamaged, correctly-made dropouts.

Then the torque arm you've got would bolt to the swingarm for the best security it can offer. Hose clamps are used for quick and dirty torque arm mounting (see the Torque Arm Picture Thread), but they don't completely immobilize the arm, and thus the axle, so with enough power (especially with regen) it will rock back and forth and eventually spin in the dropouts after breaking the hose clamp.

Your frame looks like it already has a "bump" to keep the torque arm from moving "backwards" during acceleration, there may be one on the other side of the swingarm too for a second torque arm. But you'd have to have the wheel farther forward, seated fully in teh dropout, for your torque arm to reach that (if it is long enough). Or a longer torque arm. However that won't stop it from moving forwards during regen. That would require a second welded-on bump on the bottom edge of the swingarm.

It also looks like it has a bolt hole for securing the arm, that would work even in the spot the axle is in now. It's too small for a good fit for a bolt for that arm (should be same diameter as the arm's slot so it can't rock), but you can fix that with a drill. ;)


If you want a torque plate (which I'd recommend since your dropouts are already messed up), you'd have to make it for your specific dropout design. It's not too hard, but requires care. Again, the referenced thread has pics of various ways to do it, as do many posts you can find with a search on "torque plate".

Alternately you can "repair" the dropouts by adding a threaded hole at the open end of one side for a bolt that goes thru an unthreaded hole in the other side, to clamp them tightly shut on the axle flats. This is easy enough with the right tools, and pretty effective. You could then use the torque arm in addition. But you have to put the axle in a different part of the dropouts, forward or backward from where it is now, so it is on an undamaged area of them. Closer to the new clamping bolt at the rear is probably your only option given the tire size issue.

You can make DIY clamps that bolt on; Dogman used a couple L shaped pieces to do this in one of his build threads.
 
Thanks for the reply, when I put the axle flat against the dropouts then tighten the nuts it seems the axle moves angled like that but I know this might sound stupid but I have one tourqe washer on each side of the axle and just the main nut, is this correct or do I need the other washers that come with the motor installed aswell? Thanks again ☺️
Also I don't think I'll be using regen anymore after what happened last time 🤣🤣
 
It moves because the dropouts are damaged or not made correctly and are not flush flat with the axle flats.

The nuts don't hold the axle in place from rotation. They just keep it on the bike.

The flats of the axles, along with the flats of the dropouts, keep the axle from rotating.

The torque arm or torque plate are just extra thickness to do the same thing, added to the dropouts.

Since the torque arm is not bolted to anything, it does not do anything but point in the direction the axle does, like a needle on a compass. You must bolt it down to the swingarm for it to prevent axle rotation.


Since the dropouts are either damaged or made wrong, they also do not do anything to keep the axle from rotating.


To fix the problem, you have to fix all these things. (not just one)

If you don't, it doesn't matter if you use regen or not, you'll eventually either break the axle or the dropouts, and the wheel will either fall off the bike and crash you, or rip the axle wiring apart and short phases together, blowing up your controller and forcing you to buy a new controller and either a new motor, or opening up the motor to replace the axle cable. :(





Torque washers only work if the dropouts perfectly fit the washers, and the washers perfectly fit the axle, and everything is strong enough so that none of these pieces can gouge into each other. None of those things ever happen with typical ebike stuff. Torque washers are pretty much useless for most setups above a few hundred watts (depending on the actual torque at the axle).

Also, I just noticed that the torque washer is installed with the tab to the rear, with the open end of the dropouts. This means the axle torque is prying the dropouts open with the lever the torque washer applies,so rather than helping, they're actually making the problem even worse than without them installed. If you are going to use them (which I wouldn't bother with in this case), I'd put them on with the tab facing toward the front of the dropout, which is harder to pry open. (this is why it is better to put the axle as far forward as possible, too).

Since you haven't said or shown what other hardware comes with this that you are not using, we cannot tell you anything at all about that hardware, except that it probably came with it for a reason. ;)

Washers in general are used for a few reasons. One is to keep a nut from scarring the surface it would otherwise be directly rotating against. This is usually done with flat washers. Another is to lock a nut from rotating from vibration/etc., this is usually done with lockwashers that work in a number of ways--ridges, wedges, or dome shapes. Things that push back against hte nut when it tries to turn, helping to prevent that. They can also be used to keep the axle shoulders from digging into the surface of a softer-metal frame, or it's paint. If they dig in, they not only damage that surface, they also loosen the rest of the axle hardware because now the nuts aren't held tight against their surface, since that end of the axle has moved outward away from that surface now, since the inboard (shoulder) end has moved outward thru the surface of the dropout. There's other reasons, depending on the washer and setup, but we'd need to see exactly what you have, and whatever instructions and pictures came with the system, to try to figure out what the manufacturer intended.
 
Hi I moved the wheel slightly further into the dropouts but the axle was still turning under tightning the nuts but the axle seems to sit straight and flat if I tighten each wheel nut a little bit at a time it's really tight at the moment do you think it will be safe if I keep it like it is now and get some hose clamps for both tourqe arms? Thanks
 
Hi again, I done some fiddling around with the back wheel and dropouts etc.. and this seems allot better and isn't turning under load do you think this is safer ? Thanks 👍
 

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If the axle can rotate at all in the dropouts, even wiggle, then it is not sitting flat in there, and the dropouts are either damaged (spread open) or not made right in the first place (too wide an axle gap--it should be 10mm from the top flat of the dropout slot to the bottom flat, inside the dropout slot).

WHile the new setup looks better than before, it's still not secure. I can't see your washer/etc stack in the pics, but I'd also recommend using a flat washer between the axle shoulder and the dropout's inboard side, to keep the shoulder from damaging your swingarm. Then use another flat washer, along with a lockwasher if you have one, under the nut on the axle.

Then you have to thoroughly secure the torque arm so it cannot move or rotate.


Since the swingarm already has a hole in it in the right place to bolt the torque arm to, I'd recommend using that, though as I said before, I would drill the hole larger exactly enough to fit just exactly the size bolt that will perfectly fit the mounting slot of the torque arm, if it is not already that way. If it is already the right size (whcih it looks like it probably is), just use it as-is, because it's already threaded so you won't need a nut/etc on the other side. Just a bolt and a flatwasher between the bolt and the torque arm face.

The bolt, if sized right like that, will very securely hold the torque arm to the swingarm, where a hose clamp probably won't.

I'd install the bolt from the inboard side if it is much longer than needed to go thru the stack of torque arm and swingarm and a flat washer on each side to keep the bolt and nut from scarring / cutting into the surfaces, and a lockwasher on the nut side to keep it from loosening. (a simple splitwasher is probably enough for that purpose). Pretty much any hardware store should have the matching bits to do this; just bring the torque arm in and measure how long the bolt has to be to go thru the torque arm and swingarm, and they should be able to help you find the right pieces to do that. They can also get you the right drillbit to make a hole for that bolt in the swingarm material (aluminum?) if you have to do that.


Bolt down *BOTH* torque arms, the one on the left side and the one on the right. If there's no hole on the left side, you'll need to drill one.

A hose clamp won't secure the torque arm at all unless you cut a slot in the swingarm to pass the clamp thru, just wrapping the clamp around the swingarm and torque arm won't do it.

If you have to cut a slot, it's much much better to drill a hole like the one on the right side of the swingarm and bolt it..

If the hole is already the right size you don't need a nut, just a bolt long enough for those thicknesses and the flatwasher (the lockwasher would be good, too).
 
Please note that those torque arms are pretty thin compared to the dropout, so they won't hold it as thoroughly as the dropout would if it were correctly made, and if it were a clamping type (with a bolt thru the end of the actual dropout, vertically from top part to bottom).


If you have not yet looked up the Torque Arm Picture thread,
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26444&start=15
or any of the clamping dropout posts
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fendless-sphere.com+clamping+dropout
please do this now, because you will be able to see what other people have done, and will probably get a much better idea of the things I am describing. :)
 
It would be helpful if you would post a picture of all of the hardware that came with your motor and your swingarm, because we could give you better advice. Lay it all out on something it contrasts with, so it's easily visible, and take pictures from above and the side and at an oblique angle, so we can tell exactly what each piece is and does. :)


For instance, it looks like the torque arm on the left side is different from the one on the right. The left arm seems to have a "block" tackwelded to it that is designed to fit into the dropout? If so, then it means it needs to face the other way, or else that side of the axle wont' be held in the dropout correctly. Though if it's only tackwelded on it probably isn't very secure, it's better than nothing. :)

It also means there should be the same thing on the right side arm, and if there is it means the dropouts are not sized to fit the axle at all, which is why it can move in there--it means they are sized to fit these special blocks. If that's true, it means you *must* fit the blocks over the axle so they face into the dropouts, and the blocks must be *in* the dropout slots fully, *and* the torque arms need to be bolted to the swingarms. Then that should secure your axle pretty well.

If there is no block on the right arm, only on the left, it probably also means your dropouts are not made symmetrically, so the one with the block has to go in that specific dropout.

Or it means that torque arm was made for some other swingarm and dropout type that you don't have. :(
 
I'm posting / saying so much because I want to be sure you understand where the problems are, and how to fix them. But we do need complete info from you on what you have, as well. The info we give you can only be as specific as the info we get from you. ;)



It sucks for stuff to break, and especially for wheels to come off on a ride. :p


(I have a QS205 with both axles broken off from someone else here on the forum that didn't have them completely secured...they came off while he was riding! )
 
Thanks, yeah it's a pain when a wheel comes off lol
I got 4 tourqe arms with the frame believe it or not lol and all of them have a notch on them to fit into the dropouts but when I fit both tourqe arms with the notch inside the dropouts on both sides of the swingarm the axle moves freely by hand with slight resistance but if I install one tourqe arm with the notch inside the dropout it's a snug fit and doesn't move, I'll send a pic of the other parts I got now, thanks 👍
Also I put a thick screw in the tourqe arm with the notch inside the dropout so one is attached to the swingarm.
 

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It's hard to tell with the single angle you have of the hardware, but are the double-d shapes in the washers (#1 and #3 in the attached image) with those (rather than the ones with round holes) the exact same size as the axle ends?

And on the round-holed washers with the larger holes (#4 and 7), are those holes just large enough to fit over the axle?


On the round-holed washers with the smaller holes (#5), are those just large enough for the bolts (which aren't in the picture, so not sure if you have those?) to go thru the torque arm slots into the swingarm's threaded holes? Are there two? (only one is pictured)

If that's not what they are, or how many you have, please show what you've got and what size the holes in each are compared to the axle and the bolt for the torque arm. That way we can figure out what hardware you've already got that works, and which hardware you will need to get, to ensure the motor stays installed where it's supposed to be. ;)

Did your setup come with any lock washers? If not, you can get a pair at the hardware store.


If all of those are true, then I would stack the hardware like this:

Install #1 on the axle, both ends, at the shoulder (based of flatted area). (to protect swingarm from damage by shoulders).

Slide motor into dropouts, so that those washers are against the inboard faces of the swingarms. If there is a lot of space leftover between the swingarm face and those washers, then I'd also use #4 between #1 and the swingarm face on each side. (otherwise use #4 in a later step as listed below).

Install #2 onto the axles so that the blocks on them are slid inside the dropouts, and the arms themselves are flat against the outboard faces of the swingarms, with the non-axle slot lined up with the threaded hole on each swingarm. (this locks the axle in place against rotation once bolted down)

Install the bolts (not in your pictures) into #5 and then thru that torque arm non-axle slot and into the threaded hole on each swingarm, but don't tighten down yet. (this bolts down the torque arms above)

Install #4 onto each axle, then #7. If you got lockwashers, put one on each axle, then #6 (I only see one; presumably you have two?).

Slide the motor back and forth until the brake rotor is lined up with your brake caliper, and your tire clears the frame. Then tighten down the bolts taht secure the torque arm slots, then tighten down the axle nuts.




3, 8 and 9 would be leftover; maybe they go somewhere else on your frame.
 

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Hi, thanks for the reply I'll check if those washers fit when I get back home also here's a pic on what it looks like now 👍
 

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Hey, so I went out on a ride yesterday and everything was all good untill my yellow phase wire came off the controller lol I fixed that though but the only thing I'm curious about is when I go full throttle with the wheel off the ground, at a sertain speed it will make a grinding weird sound but the wheel isn't moving in the dropouts at all, what could this be? Thanks 👍😌
 
If it never makes the noise in use, my guess is that it is reaching the RPM limit of the controller, or that it cant' cleanly read the hall signals from the motor for position readings and sends the wrong phase timing to the motor.

If it never did this before but worked the same way before otherwise, then there might be a problem with a hall signal wire, but if it works fine in use I would leave it alone until it doesn't. ;)
 
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