Battery issue - iZip E3 Dash

rick_p

100 W
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
260
Location
Los Angeles
Hello,

I picked up a used, non-operational iZip E3 Dash, the price and the challenge to get it back on the road were too great to resist :wink:

I have been down this road before, and thanks to all the amazing advice, tips and tricks I have received on this forum in the past, I at least knew where to start with troubleshooting.

The symptom; the dreaded blinking red light on the charger, so I knew right away that aside from anything else that might be wrong, there's either a battery or charger problem.

What I have tried/checked so far:
  • With battery off the bike and no charger, there is zero voltage at the charge and discharge ports, and obviously no lights at charge level indicator on the battery.
  • I attempted to test the output voltage of factory charger, but I think this charger is one that doesn't put out any voltage until there is a load. The charger has a green light before plugging it into the battery, it blinks red when plugged into the battery, and there is zero voltage at the discharge port with the charger left plugged in.
  • I tried a known working charger with the same specifications and plug type. When I plugged this charger in, the light stayed green on the charger instead of changing to amber and the fan turning on as it normally does when it's charging a battery. There was 54 volts at the discharge port with the charger plugged in.
  • I tried a soft reset on the BMS by charging the battery for a only a minute via the discharge port, but no luck there, it still doesn't charge.
  • I opened the battery case and everything looks new inside, there's no indication of any short circuits or water damage or anything like that. Due to the (clear) shrink wrap I wasn't able to get to the BMS yet to try a hard reset, and this is where I stopped.

An interesting note to add, and one of the reasons I decided to post this is, after I did the previous tests and attempts to reset the BMS, I got a very low but negative reading at the discharge port. For a second I thought maybe I attached the charger to the discharge port with the polarity reversed, but then I remembered that I checked the voltage during the one minute the charger was attached to make sure it was getting a charge, and it was connected correctly.

Any and all ideas and advice is much appreciated. I have reason to believe this bike has low mileage, so this battery is probably worth trying to fix.
 
The battery specs are on the green label.
XWD-BL17-LED
LG-18650 - MG1
48V8 7Ah 417Wh

Does anyone know why the BMS, which is hard to see under the clear shrink wrap, has an extra connector?

battery-bms.jpg

And this is interesting, it has some sort of reset function built into it, but I’ve tried searching all the numbers on all the labels and haven’t found any documentation on this battery.

F2D6D045-22D3-4533-80A1-BF37F2CF1941.jpeg

These connectors are accessible on the outside of the case, I’m guessing they might be for the reset/record function but that is purely a guess.
0B703957-5BE2-45A5-9E26-F964844115B2.jpeg
 
I just found the original operating manual online, which has a troubleshooting section and it says this about the blinking red light on the charger:

LED flashes red immediately after being plugged in:
  • The polarity between the charger and battery does not match
This seems highly unlikely considering the charger says iZip lithium ion battery charger on it, but could this be an indication of a faulty BMS?

There's nothing in the manual about using the battery reset feature the battery apparently has, it might be a factory only thing.

I hooked up my known working (not the iZip) charger to the battery and left it plugged in for 30 minutes as recommended in the manual, but my charger never went into charging mode (amber light). One thing it did do though, is when I checked the voltage at the discharge port after disconnecting the charger, it was no longer a negative number, but there was no actual charged voltage to speak of.

I'm running out of ideas.
 
rick_p said:
The battery specs are on the green label.
XWD-BL17-LED
LG-18650 - MG1
48V8 7Ah 417Wh

Does anyone know why the BMS, which is hard to see under the clear shrink wrap, has an extra connector?

file.php
Use multimeter to test cell voltages via pins on yellow connector.
1, or more, banks are too low or too high and BMS shut down. (60% probability)
 
DrkAngel said:
Use multimeter to test cell voltages via pins on yellow connector.
1, or more, banks are too low or too high and BMS shut down. (60% probability)

Thank you for responding, much appreciated!

I have no idea how long the battery has been sitting around, but on a charged battery my understanding is that between any two adjacent wires there should be about 3.71 volts (52 volts divided by 14 parallel strings) and they should be within 0.10 volts of each other. The readings I just got were very low, with most pairs being around 0.04 to 0.07, and one pair as high as 0.23, but a few were negative, around -0.07. Does this tell us anything?
 
It’s nice that the manufacturer provided a second connector to the balance leads. I wish they all did that.
Unfortunately I think your battery is beyond hope of recovery. It may even be dangerous to attempt recharging at those very low voltage levels.
Replace the battery or get it rebuilt with new cells.
 
Hwy89 said:
Unfortunately I think your battery is beyond hope of recovery. It may even be dangerous to attempt recharging at those very low voltage levels. Replace the battery or get it rebuilt with new cells.

Needless to say, this is bad news, but I can’t say that I’m surprised, I have reason to believe that the bike sat unridden and uncharged for a long time. A factory replacement is not available but I do see some rebuilt ones available. They cost more than I would expect for a rebuild, but there may be a reason for that. Unfortunately, I’m not really equipped to rebuild it myself.

The battery is dolphin style and it would be very easy to replace it with a new aftermarket model that comes with a mounting bracket, which are way cheaper, but I have a question about that.

With a charger connected to the battery, the discharge port was putting out two different voltages, presumably the 54 volts is to power the motor, and I’m sure the low voltage serves a purpose as well. My question is, is this configuration somewhat typical? Do you think I could find an aftermarket battery with the same voltage configuration? Most batteries I see don't provide this much detail. Also, do those negative numbers indicate there are other issues, such as the BMS being bad, or is that just another sign of bad cells?
discharge-port-voltages.jpg
 
Looks like you are in the L.A. area, a major metropolitan area that means you should be able to find a reputable battery rebuilder somewhat locally. Might be worth a search on craigslist or FB marketplace or similar.
 
99t4 said:
You should be able to find a reputable battery rebuilder somewhat locally. Might be worth a search on craigslist or FB marketplace or similar.

I was thinking the same thing, and you are correct, there is a shop about 45 minutes from me who advertises on Craigslist. I’ll give them a call next week. There’s also a few new batteries for sale from private sellers, but they are for specific bikes so not ideal.
 
Clarified - Through the pins 1 + 14 , on yellow connector, try charging from any small adapter.
Small 1A(?) 5V, 6V, 9V, 12V etc.
Wattage is so minimal as to be negligible.
Purpose is to monitor each bank for even addition and retention of voltage.
Do not leave unattended and monitor voltages frequently.

Compare 1 ⋙ 14 pin voltage to "1.7V" external center contacts as potential charge point.(if same)
 
DrkAngel said:
Clarified - Through the pins 1 + 14 , on yellow connector, try charging from any small adapter.
Small 1A(?) 5V, 6V, 9V, 12V etc.
This is absolutely worth a try, and I have a 5 volt 1 amp wall wort charger I can use. I understand this charger is a fixed output charger not meant for charging batteries and therefore must be monitored closely and voltage checked frequently. I do have one question though, is it safe to assume the black wire on the right in the picture below is a ground wire that can be used for the negative wire of the charger while charging (positive wire attached to) each of the other 13 wires?
connector-wires.jpg
 
Sorry, I was recommending 1st charging whole 36V battery with 5V, (presently at 1.70V, right), neg on negative (black) pin 1 and pos 5V on pin 14.
Purpose is to (reasonably safely) determine if each bank of cells will even accept any charge.
Label voltage of each bank and compare at 5-10 minute intervals.

Reply with results before attempting any 5V per bank charging!
When, and if, recommended, bank charging must be pin #1neg - #2pos, 2n-3p, 3n-4p, etc. till 13neg-14pos.
 
DrkAngel said:
Sorry, I was recommending 1st charging whole 36V battery with 5V, (presently at 1.70V, right), neg on negative (black) pin 1 and pos 5V on pin 14.
I understand the procedure now, but before I even start I want to make sure we’re on the same page with what the current status of the battery is.

First thing is it’s a 48 volt battery, and with no charger connected to it at all, the readings I’m getting are very low, with some in the negative range…
Right to left per the image of the connector:
1n-2p: .05
2n-3p: .05
3n-4p: -.24
4n-5p: -.02
5n-6p: .06
6n-5p: -.13
7n-9p: -.04
8n-9p: .08
9n-10p: .02
10n-11p: -.01
11n -12p: .08
12n-13p: -.11
13n-14p: .02
 
Understood.
If cells accept charge, it is unlikely any will even acquire 0.5V
Test is merely to, hopefully, ascertain if cells are irretrievably dead.
 
If cells are actually at negative voltage, they are very likely permanently damaged, possibly in a way that could result in fire if recharged. If the cells are cylindrical, you won't see the swelling that would usually occur with cells damaged in this way that you can see with pouch style cells.

Personally, I would replace all of the cells in the pack with new cells (or even used ones from places like BatteryHookup). You can probably keep using the same case and BMS, etc., just replace the cell module itself.

If any of the BatteryHookup packs are built in the same general way yours is (same number of series cell groups), you might be able to just take the BMS /etc off this one and wire it to the BH pack, even if it doesn't fit in your casing, as long as you are willing to deal with wiring the charge and discharge ports of the new pack to connect to your bike. That could even be done using hte original Izip battery case (minus all it's guts), just as a giant connector. ;) Then mount the new battery in a case (waterproof if necessary for your conditions) somewhere else on the bike with a cable from it to your old izip casing.
 
amberwolf said:
If cells are actually at negative voltage, they are very likely permanently damaged, possibly in a way that could result in fire if recharged. If the cells are cylindrical, you won't see the swelling that would usually occur with cells damaged in this way that you can see with pouch style cells.

Personally, I would replace all of the cells in the pack with new cells (or even used ones from places like BatteryHookup). You can probably keep using the same case and BMS, etc., just replace the cell module itself.

They are in fact cylindrical and hard to see them all, and you are now the second person to say that there is little chance of recovery and a good chance of fire if I attempt it, so if I do decide to run the test (charging the battery with 5V on negative (black) pin 1 and positive on pin 14, I’ll be doing it outside.

I wish I were set up to replace the cells myself because I probably have enough cells to do that with, but I’m not and therefore will inquire about the cost of rebuilding mine as one option from a local shop that does that.

I appreciate the suggestions you made about other options but there are aftermarket batteries that are very reasonably priced, but I still haven’t received a response to my question about what is typical for the voltages available from the discharge port (see my previous post and question with the image of the discharge port). If I can buy a replacement battery with a mounting bracket that has the proper output voltages, I would definitely go that route.
 
rick_p said:
I appreciate the suggestions you made about other options but there are aftermarket batteries that are very reasonably priced, but I still haven’t received a response to my question about what is typical for the voltages available from the discharge port (see my previous post and question with the image of the discharge port). If I can buy a replacement battery with a mounting bracket that has the proper output voltages, I would definitely go that route.
Unfortunately I don't have any information on what this specific battery should read on those pins. There's quite a few possibilities for what each of them could be, depending on the system design.

I reskimmed the thread, but did not find the following info (could've missed it, if I did please point me to it :oops: ) :

Is the charge port somewhere else on the battery?

Has the wiring been traced from that four-slot connector to the rest of the battery? If not, I would do that first--what I suspect is that if they are not the actual charge port input pins, the outer two pins are "clones" of the charge port input, and the center two pins are the discharge port. So when you plug in the charger, you see the charger voltage on those pins, but because the BMS has still determined the cells are not above LVC, it has the discharge port disabled.


If the system does not require communications with the battery to operate (a few older OEM bikes do; seems like more of them do all the time), then the only thing you need is the correct voltage for the system. If it is a 13s non-LiFePO4 battery, then it's usually called a 48v system (14s would be 52v), with something like a 41v empty LVC and a 54v full HVC. (plus or minus a few tenths depending on the system design).
 
rick_p said:
They are in fact cylindrical and hard to see them all, and you are now the second person to say that there is little chance of recovery and a good chance of fire if I attempt it, so if I do decide to run the test (charging the battery with 5V on negative (black) pin 1 and positive on pin 14, I’ll be doing it outside.
FWIW, the risk of fire is not a one-time thing with damaged cells: it doesn't mean they are safe if they don't fail upon first recharging--they could fail just sitting there after recharging, or during discharge, or during any subsequent usage; it's just not perfectly predictable. They might never fail--it's probably a higher chance of no fire...but this is one of those things with a high-consequence result from a low-chance occurence; even though it probably wont' happen it would be very bad if it did...those are the kinds of risks I personally prefer not to take, and try to advise others not to. ;)


Another issue with cells essentially brought to zero is that they probably wont' ever perform again the way they were made to; both lower capacity adn lower current-delivery ability (greater voltage sag under lower loads).

I don't recall my specific results with 18650s anymore (too long ago) but I do remember the large-format EV cells by EIG that got drained too far in my lighting pack on Crazybike2--I was able to very slowly recharge them, and they didn't puff up, but they didn't perform like they did before, and could probably not have been used for traction-pack cells anymore. This happened again, years later, on the SB Cruiser trike I think, but one of the cells was lower capacity than the others so while they were able to still supply current to dimly light the headlight by the time I discovered my error, that one had reversed voltage and puffed up. :(

In the first case I didn't have other good options so for a long while I kept using the revived lighting pack. In the second case I replaced the one definitely failed cell and reused the other three for a spare lighting pack kept in a metal cabinet in the shed, just in case. Years later it still hasn't failed...but these are EV-grade cells; I don't expect the same from 18650s (or "generic" pouch cells; seen plenty of failures of people's RC LiPo packs!).
 
amberwolf said:
Is the charge port somewhere else on the battery?

Has the wiring been traced from that four-slot connector to the rest of the battery?
Yes, there is a separate charge port, and it uses the XLR three pin style charger.

I did not trace the wires from the inner two slots (see image below) to the rest of the battery yet, but I did find a thread on a blog that discusses this battery, the blog is on a site of a company that rebuilds batteries. Those slots send information to the display to provide two features on the display, how much charge is on the battery and an estimate of range based on current consumption (it uses cadence and more to determine).

They go onto say that you can hook up any 48volt battery to the power wires and go riding, but the display will only provide limited information, which is fine, I don’t “need” the range information, and most batteries have charge level led lights. These original batteries were only 8.7 amp hr, so I’m not sure I even want to even consider rebuilding it, I think I’d prefer switching to a battery with more range and forego the fancy display information. My other bike only has three lights on the throttle, I’m more than used to not having the fancy display :wink:

Side note; I read what you said about the dangers of using damaged cells, I won’t be plugging a charger of any kind up to this battery anymore. If anything, I’ll be investing the possibility of moving the electronics that provides the display information to another battery that doesn’t have it, providing it doesn’t get too complicated.

connector-wires-2.jpg
 
I hooked up a good 48 volt battery to the main (outer two posts of the) power connector. The bike turned on and as stated in the blog post, the display had info about everything except the battery. I put the bike in throttle mode but got no power to the motor from the throttle at a stand still, so I took the bike out for ride in case the peddles have to be moving in order for the throttle to work, nothing. So, then I tried peddle assist modes and I got some response but it seemed to be intermittent. I had only used alligator clips to connect my battery so the hookup was a little precarious at best, so I stopped and unhooked it until I can hook it up more securely. It’s hard to say at this point whether the bike has other issues or if connecting only the 48 volts to the main power connector isn’t enough for the controller to work properly like the article said it would. One thing I noticed was, my bike has an extra red wire on the main positive post compared to the one in the blog post, so my bike may not be identical, and maybe that wire is causing an issue. It’s hard to say, I’ll see if I can reach the author of the blog post to ask.
 
Did some looking at reviews of the iZip E3 Dash.
Gotta ask, did you get the hub model (2015ish) or the mid-drive (2017ish)?
Cause, if it is the mid-drive ...
 
DrkAngel said:
Did some looking at reviews of the iZip E3 Dash.
Gotta ask, did you get the hub model (2015ish) or the mid-drive (2017ish)?
Cause, if it is the mid-drive ...

I wish it was a mid drive, but no, I wasn’t that lucky, it’s a hub model, and I’m pretty sure the controller is inside the hub, which will complicate things even more if it has issues.
 
amberwolf said:
Has the wiring been traced from that four-slot connector to the rest of the battery?

DrkAngel said:
Did some looking at reviews of the iZip E3 Dash.

Hi, I quoted you two because you put in a serious effort to help me with this project, so I want to let you know that IT’S ALIVE!!!

I previously stated that I hooked up a good 48 volt battery and the bike turned on and throttle mode seemed not to work at all, and peddle assist modes seemed to be intermittent, but I barely tested it because the alligator clips hookup was really sketchy. So, today I took the time to modify some slip connectors for a solid hookup and strapped the battery on well enough to really give it a solid test ride. To my surprise and joy, it works, and although there are some bugs to work out, I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to make a commuter out of this bike, which was the reason I took the plunge on it. Read on to hear more about the bugs and other interesting findings.

The Throttle: It turns out that the throttle mode does work, but there’s two things I don’t like about it. One, the throttle only works if you are peddling AND possibly only if it senses enough torque on the peddles. Once it kicks in it stays on, but it wasn’t TAG (Throttle and Go) by any stretch of the imagination. Two, max speed is limited to 20mph on throttle mode for some silly reason.

The Torque and/or PAS (Pedal Assist) Mode/Sensor: I’m not positive if it has a torque sensor yet, but it sure seems like it, and whatever it is, it seemed to be working intermittently on my first ride. At times it didn’t kick in until I tried things like peddling backwards or shifting gears. The sensor for this “feature” is inside the bottom bracket, and the rubber boot isn’t the best fit, so I’m hoping it just needs a good cleaning. I’ll post more on this later when I’ve had a chance to take a closer look.

Note: I like PAS and TAG but if it turn out this thing has a torque sensor, I might look to disable/do away with that unless I can get it working flawlessly. Maybe it’s just because I rode a motorcycle for years, but to me, if the bike has a TAG mode, I shouldn’t have to peddle to engage the motor, I should be able to just “throttle and go,” period.

Cruise Control: Just the fact that it has a working cruise control blows my mind, I had no idea they made this feature for ebikes, and this one came out in 2014!! I think it only works in PAS mode but I got it to work at near top speed (around 24 mph), which will be great for my commute to work (12 miles with several long straight aways).

Other Minor Issues I Encountered: The left brake power cutoff switch works, but a few times it didn’t re-engage power after I let go of the brake, I had to work it a couple of times. These are just magnets, so maybe it’s just dirty or a loose connection. The throttle (mechanically) sticks at wide open, the bike must have fallen on it and messed up the plastic tongue and groove, I’m sure I can fix it.

More to come, I’ll keep posting as I work through the issues, and I’d love to hear your thoughts about my findings.
connection-and-controls.jpg
 
If you decide you don't like the way the controller does things, you can replace it with a generic "dumb" controller, and then use a Grin Cycle Analyst v3 to interpret the throttle, PAS, ebrake, etc sensors per your settings in the CA menus to tune it to operate the way you want it to. It's not perfect, and there are some features that don't work the way I would like, but it might do exactly what you want it to.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html

It is best used with a dumb controller that has no display or setup of it's own, that just uses a throttle for input (no PAS/etc), so that it just always has everything it can do available to the CA's trhottle output.
 
amberwolf said:
If you decide you don't like the way the controller does things, you can replace it with a generic "dumb" controller, and then use a Grin Cycle Analyst v3 to interpret the throttle, PAS, ebrake, etc sensors per your settings in the CA menus to tune it to operate the way you want it to. It's not perfect, and there are some features that don't work the way I would like, but it might do exactly what you want it to.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html

It is best used with a dumb controller that has no display or setup of it's own, that just uses a throttle for input (no PAS/etc), so that it just always has everything it can do available to the CA's trhottle output.

This is really cool, I wonder if I’d be able to figure out the wiring given the current controller is inside the hub motor. I guess the best way to do it would be to eliminate that controller and install an external one, but that would require cutting the cable to the hub motor and figuring out which wires are the hall wires, the power wires will be obvious, but there are probably more wires than a typical hub motor cable.
 
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