SOLVED -- Throttle lag - Sabvoton 72150 & CA V3

MartyMcfly1

10 mW
Joined
Jan 16, 2021
Messages
20
Hi all,

EDIT: PROBLEM SOLVED. I had the ignition wire soldered to battery positive to be permanently 'on'. I then had a keyless push button ignition/ relay wired in and it was still doing it. I connected an on/ off switch and somehow this fixed the problem. Not sure how or why. But suspect it was fixed from the resistance or load of the switch, or the subsequent longer wiring. Without further tests I don't know, but its smooth as butter now.

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I've got a issue with throttle lag, usually it's once I've come off the throttle and go back on, I'll get nothing, then all of a sudden a large jolt. Sometimes a stutter with a couple jolts. I've been trying to fix this issue for weeks, it gets me when going up steep hills and can be a little scary with the jolt. I'll share setup and current settings of Sabvoton & CA.

I've re-pinned every connector, all of my hardware and wiring is perfect. I've even replaced the throttle to see if this fixes issue. It hasn't. I'm running a thumb throttle. I've increased fast rate on CA from 4v/ sec to 6v/ sec and didn't notice anything. I tried reducing controller response (ms) but lowest value is 10. Can't go lower.

My setup:
Batteries: 22s Turnigy Lipo, three 6s 10ah packs and one 4s 10ah pack in series- 92.4v fully charged.

Controller: Sabvoton 72150 controller, with CA plug & bluetooth. As well as external shunt.

Display: Grin Cycle Analyst v3. Currently limiting to 100a using the cycle analyst. Temperature sensor with heat & low voltage cutoff. Certain parameters of the controller may seem high because I'm using the CA for my limiting.

Motor: MXUS 3KW V3 hub motor, laced into a 24" rim.

I hope someone has had a similar issue and can point me in the right direction. I'd owe you a beer, or cup of tea. Or whatever tickles your pickle.

Settings as follows:

SABVOTON 72150
Input & output

Lack voltage (v) 60
Current limiting voltage (v) 62
Over voltage (v): 96
DC Current (A): 150
Boost current (A):150
Phase current (A): 150
Max phase current: (A) 350
Protective phase current (A) 450
Function
E-Brake A: on
E-Brake current (A): 60
Boost/ 3 speed: push button 3 gear
Reverse speed limit (%): 20
Flux weaken enable: yes
Flux weaken current (A): 50
Regen enable: no
Throttle
Throttle min voltage (v): 1.20
Throttle max voltage (v): 4.00
Accelerate (ms): 10
Decelerate (ms): 10
Throttle mid voltage (v): 2.30
Throttle mid current (a): 175
Motor:
Motor direction: 1
Poor poles pair: 23
Speed limit mode: no limit
Internal speed limit (%): 100
Low speed limit (%): 70
Mid speed limit (%): 100

GRIN CYCLE ANALYST V3 throttle settings
Setup throt in: 0.85v - 00%pwr
Throt in Cntrl mode: power (w)
Throt in Zero Thrsh: 0.99v
Throt in Full Thrsh: 3.99v
Throt in: Fault Thrsh: 4.34v

Setup throt out: 0.90-4.00v
Throt out Output mode: voltage
Throt out Min out: 0.90v
Throt out Max out: 4.00v
Throt out Down rate: 4.99v/ sec
Throt out UP rate: 2.00v / sec
Throt out Fast rate: 6.00v/ sec
Throt out Fast thrsh: 30.0a
 
First thing to try is set CA throttle to BYPASS mode, so that it goes right to the controller unmodified.
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html#SetupThrotIn
If the problem persists, it's a controller issue. If it goes away, it's a CA issue. Then you can start narrowing down things further from there without worrying about what the other device is doing.

Additionally, it's going to be easier to setup any throttle ramping you want if you completely disable it in one device, and only use the other for it. Otherwise you have two seriesed ramps, which multiplies the delay between your action and the wheel response. This also causes you to be more extreme with your own input because it isn't doing what you tell it to when you tell it to do it, and can make the problem even worse.

Disabling the CA ramping is using 99v/s for all ramps, up and down, which is effectively instantaneous. Don't know how to do it in your controller settings.


MartyMcfly1 said:
Hi all,

I've got a issue with throttle lag, usually it's once I've come off the throttle and go back on, I'll get nothing, then all of a sudden a large jolt. Sometimes a stutter with a couple jolts. I've been trying to fix this issue for weeks, it gets me when going up steep hills and can be a little scary with the jolt. I'll share setup and current settings of Sabvoton & CA.

I've re-pinned every connector, all of my hardware and wiring is perfect. I've even replaced the throttle to see if this fixes issue. It hasn't. I'm running a thumb throttle. I've increased fast rate on CA from 4v/ sec to 6v/ sec and didn't notice anything. I tried reducing controller response (ms) but lowest value is 10. Can't go lower.

My setup:
Batteries: 22s Turnigy Lipo, three 6s 10ah packs and one 4s 10ah pack in series- 92.4v fully charged.

Controller: Sabvoton 72150 controller, with CA plug & bluetooth. As well as external shunt.

Display: Grin Cycle Analyst v3. Currently limiting to 100a using the cycle analyst. Temperature sensor with heat & low voltage cutoff. Certain parameters of the controller may seem high because I'm using the CA for my limiting.

Motor: MXUS 3KW V3 hub motor, laced into a 24" rim.

I hope someone has had a similar issue and can point me in the right direction. I'd owe you a beer, or cup of tea. Or whatever tickles your pickle.

Settings as follows:

SABVOTON 72150
Input & output

Lack voltage (v) 60
Current limiting voltage (v) 62
Over voltage (v): 96
DC Current (A): 150
Boost current (A):150
Phase current (A): 150
Max phase current: (A) 350
Protective phase current (A) 450
Function
E-Brake A: on
E-Brake current (A): 60
Boost/ 3 speed: push button 3 gear
Reverse speed limit (%): 20
Flux weaken enable: yes
Flux weaken current (A): 50
Regen enable: no
Throttle
Throttle min voltage (v): 1.20
Throttle max voltage (v): 4.00
Accelerate (ms): 10
Decelerate (ms): 10
Throttle mid voltage (v): 2.30
Throttle mid current (a): 175
Motor:
Motor direction: 1
Poor poles pair: 23
Speed limit mode: no limit
Internal speed limit (%): 100
Low speed limit (%): 70
Mid speed limit (%): 100

GRIN CYCLE ANALYST V3 throttle settings
Setup throt in: 0.85v - 00%pwr
Throt in Cntrl mode: power (w)
Throt in Zero Thrsh: 0.99v
Throt in Full Thrsh: 3.99v
Throt in: Fault Thrsh: 4.34v

Setup throt out: 0.90-4.00v
Throt out Output mode: voltage
Throt out Min out: 0.90v
Throt out Max out: 4.00v
Throt out Down rate: 4.99v/ sec
Throt out UP rate: 2.00v / sec
Throt out Fast rate: 6.00v/ sec
Throt out Fast thrsh: 30.0a
 
Amber, thank you for your reply, sometimes the obvious answer stares you in the face. I'll try disabling CA or Sabvoton throttle completely or set max values in the CA like you say, see if this sorts the issue. I did wonder if its a hall fault or if I haven't put in the correct motor poles? I've been running bike in these settings for well over a year, but each day, it's niggling at me to fix it.
 
You don't want to disable the throttle in either one.

You want to set CA throttle to BYPASS mode, so that the throttle signal it goes from your physical throttle right to the controller unmodified.

All that does is eliminate the CA as the cause, assuming it still operates problematically at that point. (it is not likely to be the CA, but easier to eliminate it first).


The only thing that causes response lag in the CA is ramping time of throttle within the CA, *and* the PID loop settings, if you're using them to limit current, power, etc.

I don't know what specific similar functions the Sabvoton you have contains, but those would be the cause of response lag there.

Hall faults, number of poles, etc., can cause all sorts of problems causing the motor to work incorrectly, but not a delay in it working correctly. So if it is working right, just not immediately, it's not that.

If it is working correctly all the time *except* for this specific situation, it is also almost certainly not that.

If the jolt problem happens whenever you're suddenly applying throttle, especially at low or no motor speed, then you could have controller settings that send current to the motor with slightly wrong timing, or is spiking current higher than the motor can correctly handle under that loading situation, or is spiking current so high that battery voltage dips enough for the controller to respond by then trying to reduce current so rapidly that the motor doesn't get what it needs to do the work correctly. (the latter case would likely be related to whatever settings it has for LVC or battery voltage drop, if it has any).


MartyMcfly1 said:
Amber, thank you for your reply, sometimes the obvious answer stares you in the face. I'll try disabling CA or Sabvoton throttle completely or set max values in the CA like you say, see if this sorts the issue. I did wonder if its a hall fault or if I haven't put in the correct motor poles? I've been running bike in these settings for well over a year, but each day, it's niggling at me to fix it.

-
 
So on my CA I have a three way switch, with power levels. Amps or Watts, whichever it reaches first. Pos 1: 20a 1.0kw, Pos 2: 40a 3.0kw, Pos 3: 100a 11.0kw

So on my CA, I changed my CA thottle in to bypass mode, on Pos 1: 20a 1.0kw. Not touching any of the sabvoton settings. I now realise by doing so it completely disregards my pos switch and unleashed the beastly full 150a or so of the Sabvoton onto my back wheel. Good job I wasn't sat on it, it was absolutely brutal.

I'm not going to be able to test this whilst keeping my three way switch am I, I'll have to tame down the sabvoton for testing.

You don't thinks it's Fault Thrsh at 4.34v causing the issue?
 
MartyMcfly1 said:
So on my CA, I changed my CA thottle in to bypass mode, on Pos 1: 20a 1.0kw. Not touching any of the sabvoton settings. I now realise by doing so it completely disregards my pos switch and unleashed the beastly full 150a or so of the Sabvoton onto my back wheel. Good job I wasn't sat on it, it was absolutely brutal.

I was going to warn you about that, but you figured it out without injury. So the lag is gone using Bypass throttle? If so, you could reinsert the CA, set it to Power or Current mode, and crank up the throttle up rate until it until it start wheelieing uncontrollably, then back it down. The 2.0V that you're using is pretty tame.
 
E-HP said:
MartyMcfly1 said:
So on my CA, I changed my CA thottle in to bypass mode, on Pos 1: 20a 1.0kw. Not touching any of the sabvoton settings. I now realise by doing so it completely disregards my pos switch and unleashed the beastly full 150a or so of the Sabvoton onto my back wheel. Good job I wasn't sat on it, it was absolutely brutal.

I was going to warn you about that, but you figured it out without injury. So the lag is gone using Bypass throttle? If so, you could reinsert the CA, set it to Power or Current mode, and crank up the throttle up rate until it until it start wheelieing uncontrollably, then back it down. The 2.0V that you're using is pretty tame.



The 2v is just at pos 3, circa 9000w, it was to keep front end down on my bike as it would lift. However my frame and geometry has since changed. Now running an EEB enduro frame. Which isn't as wheelie happy, longer swing arm etc. I'll increase it up to 4v/ sec.

I'm restricting to 100a, with my current batteries. I've got a set of tattu li-po, 22s 10ah, rated 25c I'd be comfortable cranking upto 150a. But with these Turnigy 10ah, rated 12-24c, I don't want to push them too far. Not to mention, I don't really want more acceleration. It's nuts.

I should add, I changed frame AND motor, around 8 months ago. For the EEB frame, as I damaged the axle of my previous mxus 3kw v3 3T. As well as the dropouts of my old frame. It wasn't doing the jolt before. Sorry guys I missed a huge factor here. I've switched to the secondary set of hall sensors on mxus and tried everything but no joy. After reading around, it may be related to an hall sensor ground? But I've used both sets, both can't be bad surely. I'm thinking it may be worth me opening up motor to have a look.
 
Well, the point of bypassing the CA's throttle is so that it passes it thru unmodified, to eliminate the CA entirely from the problem you're having. Unmodified means exactly that--it doesn't do any changes to the throttle, so it's the same as wiring it directly to the controller (without having to go thru all the hardware changes to do so, and thus "instantly reversible").

Without first eliminating either the controller or the CA as the problem, narrowing it down to a specific setting in either one is likely to be difficult, because it can be an interaction between the two.

Since there is no easy way to eliminate the controller, but there is an instantly easy way to eliminate the CA (with the Bypass mode on the throttle), I highly recommend doing this.

If there's no way for you to use the throttle to control the system current and you always get full current from the controller anytime the throttle is used at all, even just barely moving it, then it sounds like you probably want to do some tuning of the controller regardless (so that any failure of the CA to limit throttle, for any reason (such as water ingress into wiring, wiring damage from any source, etc), does not cause loss of system control. ;)

If the throttle is a poorly designed one, and has an extremely narrow physical range of response, making it difficult to control it's output, there are a number of throttle systems out there that can correct this, including using a cable-operated throttle where you can adjust the movement range of the physical throttle to pull more or less cable for a given throttle movement, so the electronics pulled by the cable then output a reasonable, controllable, amount of throttle voltage to the system. I use a system like this (though it's not truly adjustable, it could be made to be so) on SB Cruiser both for a thumb throttle for times I can't use PAS for whatever reason, and for a variable regen braking brake handle control.










MartyMcfly1 said:
So on my CA I have a three way switch, with power levels. Amps or Watts, whichever it reaches first. Pos 1: 20a 1.0kw, Pos 2: 40a 3.0kw, Pos 3: 100a 11.0kw

So on my CA, I changed my CA thottle in to bypass mode, on Pos 1: 20a 1.0kw. Not touching any of the sabvoton settings. I now realise by doing so it completely disregards my pos switch and unleashed the beastly full 150a or so of the Sabvoton onto my back wheel. Good job I wasn't sat on it, it was absolutely brutal.

I'm not going to be able to test this whilst keeping my three way switch am I, I'll have to tame down the sabvoton for testing.

You don't thinks it's Fault Thrsh at 4.34v causing the issue?
 
This sounds like a totally separate problem, and I would recommend leaving it completely alone until you resolve the issue this thread was started for. Troubleshooting multiple problems at the same time usually makes them all very hard to fix, and if you do fix them it's very hard to know what actually fixed anything, which means if it crops up again, you have to start over from scratch to troubleshoot, instead of simply re-applying the fix you know will do it. ;)

If you think the jolt is caused by the motor and not the throttle system, then I would first, just to be certain you're fixing the right problem, still bypass the throttle control on the CA, so that you know *for sure* that the controller is responding directly to throttle control.


That said, a hall sensor problem, especially one caused by wire damage from an axle issue, could cause all sorts of undesired motor operation.

However, you said you changed the motor, so you don't have a damaged motor or axle or wiring.

If this is the case, then exactly when did the problem you are having start?

Did it start *after* the motor was changed, or before?

If before, did it start before the axle damage, or after?

Knowing when a problem started in relation to things that change on a system enables you to look at the right part of the system to find it.



MartyMcfly1 said:
I should add, I changed frame AND motor, around 8 months ago. For the EEB frame, as I damaged the axle of my previous mxus 3kw v3 3T. As well as the dropouts of my old frame. It wasn't doing the jolt before. Sorry guys I missed a huge factor here. I've switched to the secondary set of hall sensors on mxus and tried everything but no joy. After reading around, it may be related to an hall sensor ground? But I've used both sets, both can't be bad surely. I'm thinking it may be worth me opening up motor to have a look.
 
EDIT: Issue resolved, by accident. I've no idea how or why but my jolt is gone. It stopped happening after I wired in a switch to the ignition circuit as an easy way to turn the bike on/ off.

Beforehand, I had the ignition wire connected to the battery positive permanently, hard-wired. I was physically plugging and unplugging my li-po batteries.

So I'm not sure if it was resolved due to the resistance or load created by the switch, or if it was caused by interference or magnetic field from the loop between ignition wire and positive wire from the harness? It hasn't done it since anyway. I'd never have guessed that was causing the problem.
 
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