Crystalyte 5303 motor with Lyen controller

pasta said:

I would like to get a 063770-SL Mark II (sensorless) Lyen controller and a Cycle Analyst v2.24 (I know they are both a few years old...) to work with my Crystalyte 5303 hub motor (with hall sensor connector), without success so far.
Anyone knows if this combination is known to work?

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They should be able to be made to work; depends on your exact setup (wiring) and needs (what exactly you want the system to do).

Note that to use the CA v2.x to actually control the throttle voltage may require some wiring changes inside the CA and your controller's CA connector (if it has one). From what I can remember of the v2.x CA's, normally it only "grounds" the throttle signal to your controller from your throttle, via a diode inside the controller on it's CA connector wiring.

Newer 3.x versions of the CA output an analog throttle signal just like an actual throttle, based on any throttle or PAS input to the CA along with any other sensors / signals wired to the CA, processed via the settings you choose in the CA.


First, what is the exact wiring of the CA to the system, and how is the rest of the system connnected together (battery, controller, motor, throttle, switches, etc)? If you can post a wire-by-wire diagram, it may help us help you find any miswires.

Next, what are all of the settings in the CA? Or, rather, which of the settings have you changed from default settings, and to what?

What 36v battery is being used? (all of it's specifications if you have them) Knowing this may show if it is capable of running the system. The voltages you show may indicate the battery is not able to do this and sagging in voltage so much the system cannot operate (the controller would probably shutdown due to it's internal LVC).


FWIW, it helps if you first get the system working without the CA, using your throttle directly to the controller. Once it runs correctly this way, then the CA can be placed between the throttle and the controller's throttle input, and the CA can then be setup to do the things you need it to do.

If you don't want to unwire the CA to test this way, to see if it just a setting you can change the CA throttle setting to BYPASS mode and the throttle will be passed directly thru unchanged to the controller, as if you had wired it directly.

Note that just using this mode does not do anything to correct a miswire between throttle, CA, and controller; that's something you'd have to check; drawing up a complete wiring diagram of how you actually have things wired, tracing out each wire one at a time while drawing it out, will help with this.


BTW, the values you list below your post don't mean much unless you also include all of the names of the fields they are for along with them, so that we know what each of those values applies to.

I have tried the following: I have programmed the controller (see below the contents of the configuration file) and connected to it: a 36V battery, the Cycle Analyst, the three phase leads of the motor, a PAS and a three-step throttle (with "1", "2" or "3"-full throttle). Depending on the throttle setting and without turning the motor, I observe that the CA measures a different voltage (35V, 30V and 35V).
When I push the pedals, then the wheel turns but the motor does not engage, i.e. it feels like there is no motor support. At the same time, the voltage measured by the CA goes further down, to wherever I set the low-voltage cutoff. The CA keeps showing a current of ~0A.

Any ideas? Controller broken? (I know I should have connected a fuse... :\ )
Anyone who has experience with this setup and can give me hints?


Thanks in advance!


---

profile.asv:

1:EB306
40
20.0
24.0
1.0
99
0:Switch 3Spd X1 X2
100
100
100
1.0
15.0
1:Only Fake Indicate
0:Comm VCC
0:
35
55
0:Low
0:None
1:False
03
0:Speed1
100
2:Compatible
30
0:No

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Thanks amberwolf for the detailed response! Great to hear that the combination should work. I will have a look at your questions and get back to you.

As for the wiring diagram: I have connected to the controller a 36V battery, the Cycle Analyst, the three phase leads of the motor, a PAS and a three-step throttle (with "1", "2" or "3"-full throttle). Everything is connected to the controller. Here a diagram - hope this helps:


I am using the following battery: https://www.babboe.de/yamaha-akku-500-wh . (Li-Ion with 36V, 13.6Ah)

As for the exact wiring and connectors, I have followed the instructions and the connector description on this page http://lyen.com/Manual/Mark_II (since there were no description delivered with the controller). However, this page doesn't show any PAS connector.
I used the description to identify all connectors on my controller, except two connectors, that have each three leads black-red-green.
One of them must be the PAS. Maybe I have connected it to the wrong one?

I have done a few more tests:
- If I disconnect everything except the phase leads and then turn the wheel, then the voltage on the battery remains at 37V.
- If I additionally connect the PAS sensor and then turn the wheel, then the battery voltage drops significantly

Next I would follow your advice to try the controller with the throttle only and without the PAS (and program the controller in "no PAS" mode).

pasta said:

As for the wiring diagram: I have connected to the controller a 36V battery, the Cycle Analyst, the three phase leads of the motor, a PAS and a three-step throttle (with "1", "2" or "3"-full throttle). Everything is connected to the controller. Here a diagram - hope this helps:

Click to expand...

If you can draw up a wire-by-wire diagram, by manually tracing out the wiring you actually have on the bike, it would be more useful for troubleshooting, now and later on. This will both create you a diagram of your bike for future reference, and help us help you make sure each wire goes where it is supposed to for the functions you want it to have.

For example, the CA shows no current flow, which usually means the shunt wires from the CA to the controller either aren't connected, or are not wired to the controller's shunt. It could also just mean the CA isn't correctly setup in it's menus for the value of the controller's shunt, and/or other shunt-related settings.


Just so we know what your hardware is designed to do, so we can make sure it gets connected the way it needs to be to the right place(s): What exactly is your "three step throttle"? Is it something you purchased (if so, a link to it may be helpful), or something you've built (if so, a schematic may be useful if you made one)? What does it do? Does it output a steady voltage, increasing from one step to the next, via button push? Or something else?

I am using the following battery: https://www.babboe.de/yamaha-akku-500-wh . (Li-Ion with 36V, 13.6Ah)

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Unfortunately the page doesn't have much info; nothing really helpful for any troubleshooting purposes. It does say it's a Yamaha battery. Some OEM batteries are not usable outside their original system (they may not engage, or may shut off output, if they don't receive the correct communication from the system, and don't work with only main + and - connected). Has this battery worked for you on other bikes (that don't have the Yamaha system)?

But in general, note that for a typical 36v battery, 37v is around half-charged. Does this battery charge fully? (about 42v is full for 36v battery; 35v is less than half full, and 30v is empty).

As for the exact wiring and connectors, I have followed the instructions and the connector description on this page http://lyen.com/Manual/Mark_II (since there were no description delivered with the controller). However, this page doesn't show any PAS connector.
I used the description to identify all connectors on my controller, except two connectors, that have each three leads black-red-green.
One of them must be the PAS. Maybe I have connected it to the wrong one?

Click to expand...

I've only had three Lyen controllers, all from over 10 years ago, but none of them had PAS, so I don't know if yours does or which connector would be used.

I did forget that the CA v2.x does not have a PAS input (the v3.x does); I was thinking that you could use the PAS on the CA and have the CA generate a throttle signal from it (like the 3.x does; this is how my trike is setup), but that won't work in your case.

To use a "cadence" (pulse-output) PAS device your controller would have to support it directly. You may have to ask Lyen for your specific controller if it does support PAS and if it does, which connector to use.

I have done a few more tests:
- If I disconnect everything except the phase leads and then turn the wheel, then the voltage on the battery remains at 37V.
- If I additionally connect the PAS sensor and then turn the wheel, then the battery voltage drops significantly

Click to expand...

Which specific connector is the PAS being connected to, and what is the exact wiring being used?

What are the specific battery voltages you see with and without it connected?

By "turn the wheel" do you mean manually spinning the wheel with it off the ground, or something else (if so, what?)?

Thanks amberwolf for your response! Before I continue debugging, I suppose it would be best if I get in touch with Lyen directly and ask about the controller. I have already sent him an email a few weeks ago without response.
If you know how to best contact Lyen, feel free to send me a PM.

Im pretty sure Lyen to Crystalyte you just wire it all color for color and swap the yellow and green on the phases/halls

I literally have a Youtube video of me installing a lyen 12 fet 4110 to a 5404 and getting it working but I dont tell you the combination! Very handy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4AchvKTzOc

skeetab5780 said:

Im pretty sure Lyen to Crystalyte you just wire it all color for color and swap the yellow and green on the phases/halls

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The OP's controller is noted as sensorless, so it doesn't use the hall connector on the Crystalyte they have.

I have connected the system to a DC power supply now (providing 36V and max 30A). All works fine.
I guess the battery, that I have borrowed for testing, was the reason, as suspected by amberwolf s. below. Thanks a lot for the help amberwolf and skeetab5780!

amberwolf said:

pasta said:

I am using the following battery: https://www.babboe.de/yamaha-akku-500-wh . (Li-Ion with 36V, 13.6Ah)

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the page doesn't have much info; nothing really helpful for any troubleshooting purposes. It does say it's a Yamaha battery. Some OEM batteries are not usable outside their original system (they may not engage, or may shut off output, if they don't receive the correct communication from the system, and don't work with only main + and - connected). Has this battery worked for you on other bikes (that don't have the Yamaha system)?

Click to expand...

48v40amp That setup can do a wheelie. But be careful. But needs 72v and a good battery to handle 80 amps. Be more careful.