Spin-out Fall-out

etumon

10 µW
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Sep 27, 2022
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DAPU M155 rear hub motor had an axle spin-out After which:
:REENTION EEL Pro Activates as normal
King Meter KM5S-R: Switches on, accepts RFID tag and activates
  • Long press up fails to activate lights although light icon flashes briefly on display
    • Display shows 0.0km/h speed only
      • After 10 mins the display shows 33 then switches off. Error code 33 Display Communication Error
        • With display off battery will not shut down with long press. Display must be reactivated then long press battery on/off shuts down both the display and the battery.

          I checked cable harness to Motor and as you might imagine there was some damage to wiring insulation no wires were broken or detached. I repaired wiring insulation damage. Continuity test on hub cable harness wiring revealed no problems.
          Everything I am doing I am learning for the first time, which has been fine, though I think it prudent that I should seek situation specific guidance as im "you-tubed out".
          BTW : My controller has no identifying marks on the outer casing. I have not opened it....... as yet.
          Any feedback/advice/divine intervention welcome. Thank you.
 
THE BLACK AND BLUE THIN. THEY WERE NOT MELTS AND ONLY THE BLACK WAS CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE AXLE THAT IT MAY HAVE TOUCHED METAL AXLE /FRAME ETC. I ACTUALLY ENDED UP CUTTING THE BLACKAND SOLDERING IN A SHORT SECTION AN SHRINK INSULATING IT
 
The most likely thing is that, even if it is not evident***, a phase wire shorted to a 5v sensor signal or supply wire. This puts battery voltage thru parts in the system that are not capable of handling that.

If the high voltage fed into the 5v supply, then anything else fed by that supply, anywhere on the bike, may have been damaged. It might still "work" but not as it used to, or it might not work at all. For instance, throttles or PAS sensors, or motor / wheel speed sensors, motor hall sensors, etc, can fail. The MCU in the controller itself (or in anything else powered by 5v from the controller) can be damaged and operate unpredictably or simply not work at all. The 5v source inside the controller can also be damaged (sometimes leading to the 12/15v source that feeds it also being damaged). To fix this level of problem, it can require replacing nearly the entire assist system, depending on the specific damage.

If the high voltage only fed into a sensor signal, then damage is usually confined to the device reading that signal--usually the controller, and usually the main MCU within it, so you only have to replace the controller (which is not usually repairable in this instance) and motor (or the sensor inside the motor if it's replaceable/accessible) to fix it.

The display has it's own 5v source powered by the battery, so it isn't usually damaged by the event. In your case, since the display comes on but it can't talk to the controller, it's a fair bet that the controller MCU is damaged, and the controller will probably require replacement.

If you're lucky, it's just the 5v source that's damaged, and that is often repairable. When you turn the system on at the display, does a voltmeter with it's black lead on battery negative and red lead on red wire to motor (or to PAS sensor or throttle or wheel speed sensor, etc) read about 5v? If not, what does it read? You can try the red lead on every wire to each of those devices, to see what voltages are present, and note them down. It may be useful information to find what may have been damaged.



***in a spinout, the wires can get twisted inside the main cable insulation, sometimes down inside the axle where you can't see this. This can press conductors against each other hard enough in different wires to push them all the way thru their insulation to let different ones touch enough to pass voltages thru that should never meet in normal operation (and typically is no protection against). You may not even see damage to the outer cable jacket in areas this has occured, and so it looks undamaged but it is not. The short usually goes away when the cable is untwisted and tension is released, so it doesn't show up in a test, either. But it has usually already done the systemwide damage by then.


Hopefully this is not what has happened to you, but it is very common in axle spinouts / motor cable damage. :(
 
AMBERWOLF, firstly, thank you very much for your response. Really appreciate the time you have taken to share & explain the information.
If I could just clarify:
Multi-meter Black probe to battery negative: That will be one of the two large holes on the Battery to Controller connector(5 holes total, 2 large & 3 small)? If so which one?
Red wire to Motor: The connector from the controller to Motor wiring has 9 ports (the 3 large would be Phase wires, of the 6 smaller :the 3 Halls next to each other, of the last 3 which would be the red?
Other devices are connected to controller by waterproof connectors: whats the best way to get an accurate reading with the multi meter pictured and while I'm on the subject: How should I s best set up the multi-meter to do tests? I tried a few different settings. On one of them all phase wires showed 0.0036
I have included a few pics. One of them shows the cable harness from motor. I took it before i repaired the black wire and while taking another closer look at it, noticed damaged insulation on the yellow phase wire which under twisting strain would potentially have met with the exposed wiring on the black.
 

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etumon said:
Multi-meter Black probe to battery negative: That will be one of the two large holes on the Battery to Controller connector(5 holes total, 2 large & 3 small)? If so which one?
Don't know. You can test polarity by setting multimeter to 200VDC, then putting one probe in each hole on the battery's connector. If the reading has a - sign, then the black probe is in the positive hole, and vice-versa. If the reading has no sign, then red is in positive.

However, to do the test you need the battery connected to the controller, so you'd need to either cut into the cable harness to get to the wires (which ruins the waterproofing) or make some form of extension wires from the battery pins to the controller pins, which risks shorting things out. The only other "easy" way is to open the battery, or the controller, to get to the battery negative.

A "safer" way is to use the ground (battery negative) wire in one of the signal paths, like the motor hall sensors since you already have access to the wires within that cable. This is usually the black wire, but to be sure you can leave the battery disconnected from the system, and set the multimeter to continuity if it has that function, or 200ohms if it doesn't, then put either meter lead into the controller's battery negative pin and the other meter wire to wherever the conductor of the black motor hall wire is accessible. If it reads continuity or basically zero ohms, then it is the same electrical point and can be used instead of battery negative.



Red wire to Motor: The connector from the controller to Motor wiring has 9 ports (the 3 large would be Phase wires, of the 6 smaller :the 3 Halls next to each other, of the last 3 which would be the red?
I can't see all the wires in the pic, but the red wire would be red, if there is one. ;) It's the 5v wire, but it could be any color--it's just *usually* red. I don't know which connector pin it would be--the continuity test like for the above will help you find it (but from the red wire itself).

Other devices are connected to controller by waterproof connectors: whats the best way to get an accurate reading with the multi meter pictured and while I'm on the subject: How should I s best set up the multi-meter to do tests? I tried a few different settings. On one of them all phase wires showed 0.0036
Phase wires (from phase to phase on the motor) will always show essentially a direct short, and the reading on any typical meter is just not accurate enough to read that low a resistance. But that's ok, it doesn't really matter in this case.

Phase wires on the controller should be essentially open-circuit (high resistance) from phase to phase. If you read a short or low resistance on those, without the motor connected, there's something wrong inside the controller (usually blown FETs). That can happen from a damaged motor cable.

For testing, meter settings depend on what you are testing. If you're testing continuity from one point to another, the lowest ohms setting, usually 200ohms, works best, unless there's a continuity mode. On yours, the pic is hard to see from the glare on the plastic, but if the yellow marking to the right of the REL button is for continuity, then that's the best mode to choose. Your meter seems to be autoranging, but some of those dont autorange very well so if you don't get the reading you expect, you can usually use a button (probably SELECT) to manually change ranges. See it's manual for how to do this to pick a specific range. If your'e testing voltage, then DC volts is what you'd pick.

To find the 5V on any of the waterproof connectors, you can simply measure with power on, with that device (throttle, PAS) unplugged, at the controller side of the connector, black meter lead on ground / battery negative, red lead to each pin to see what the voltages are (you can draw them out for later reference at this time, if you like), meter set to 200VDC or 20VDC.


I have included a few pics. One of them shows the cable harness from motor. I took it before i repaired the black wire and while taking another closer look at it, noticed damaged insulation on the yellow phase wire which under twisting strain would potentially have met with the exposed wiring on the black.
If the black is the ground (battery negative) wire in the hall sensor set, then shorting those would ground the yellow phase, and could blow up FETs in the controller for that phase. It *probably* wouldn't damage anything else, but with these kinds of failures it's not always predictable. :(
 
OK SO I WAS CHANGING THE CASSETTE ON REAR WHEEL & OPENED UP THE MOTOR TO DO SOME TESTS. THIS FIRST IMAGE IS OF THE "CABLE TO MOTOR' CONNECTOR. MY GUESS AS TO THE PIN/SLOT ASSIGNMENT IS: 1-3 PHASE WIRES 4-6 RED + BLACK NEG AND WHITE& 7-9 HALL SENSORS

IMG_4630 (3).png

THIS NEXT PIC IS OF THE OPEN MOTOR
MOTOR WIRING2.png

I SET MULTI METER TO CONTINUITY (BEEP) THEN WITH BLACK PROBE IN #1 USED THE RED TO PROBE THE WIRES AT CONNECTION POINT ON MOTOR. THIS IS WHAT I GOT: WITH BLK IN #1, #2 & #3 = 3 BEEPS FOR EACH AT PHASE WIRE CONNECTION.BLK IN4,5 &6 got only one beep when it was in #6 and that was with the Black wire on motor(so slot 6 is my negative?) and no beeps at all with blk on 7,8 & 9.
Should i have been hoping for a beep when i was on 4 & 5 from the red and the white?
 
OK, I had to take a time -out. That was a good reminder for me of the value of experience V's information alone.
I got back on my Super Six Evo & Emonda road bikes and was hit by a car on each. On both occasions the drivers made abrupt, un-indicated turns into side streets.
I noticed this pic & would like to know what it indicates/suggests may have happened. It is a Higo connector for the light. To activate the light usibg the King Meter KM5S-R, the " + " button is long pressed.
When I do that now the light icon flashes up on the display momentarily then disappears. The light will not activate.IMG_4959.pngView attachment 1
 

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The only thing I can see from the connector pics is that they were not correctly plugged into each other, they were placed against each other and rotated while pushing, which has bent the pins and scratched circles into the other connector face.


The problem itself is likely to be inside the display unit, as there is a tiny transistor that does the light switching. If load on that exceeds it's ability, it can blow the transistor, and/or it's control circuitry or voltage supply (some use a low-voltage like 6v, some use battery voltage). It's not uncommon for the transistor to fail even with "original" lights that come with bikes. It can sometimes be replaced to fix the problem, or the display itself can be replaced with an identical model (but if the overload is a light too large for the transistor, it will fail again at some point). (has to be identical because others won't work with the controller).

If a light is too much of a load for it, you could instead use an external switch, and DC-DC to get a lower voltage if necessary.
 
Crossposted from:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=108063&p=1745907#p1745875

amberwolf said:
Is this from this thread?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=117827

If so, the most likely thing is that the display or controller is damaged from one or more of the previous issues, and one or both are nonfunctional in important ways (for instance, the controller MCU could be damaged) or they cannot communicate with each other due to electrical damage or connector / wiring damage.

Or, if during repair process the display and/or controller were replaced with different versions or models than were present before, they probably aren't compatible with each other and can't understand the communications sent back and forth.

I also copied this post and a quote of yours to that thread since that's the best place to keep troubleshooting the system (since that is where all the other info about it is located).

etumon said:
Hi Cory,
KM5S-R Display shows PAS "0" and does not change when "UP" & "DOWN" buttons are pressed. I can toggle through the various display functions but they do not show any change relating to movement. The only function that shows any variation is ride time which begins when display is powered on. When trying to activate the light , the icon appears on display briefly without the lights turning on. There is no drive assist from motor. Does this information offer any indication as to where the problem in my set up might be or ......
Thank you
 
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