Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

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tigcross   100 W

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Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » May 23 2019 11:42am

Hi guys, here's a video update on the progress of the Electrom1.
the frame is a combination of Aluminum tubing and laser cut and bent plate.
Controller: Grin Phaserunner
Motor: Magic Pie 2 (and the new Grin Splined Gearmotor when it comes in)
top speed: 60 kph
range: 220 km with 2 72 volt 20 AH batteries

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by Warren » May 25 2019 9:51am

Thanks for the update. I keep imagining it with 4 kWh of battery, and a 6 kW scooter wheel back there. :-)

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by thundercamel » Jun 17 2019 9:20am

That's a pretty cool generator idea, so that your pedaling speed can be independent from your road speed. I wonder how the efficiencies compare to the direct chain drive.
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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jun 20 2019 11:32am

Excellent,

When you get time after you get it ready for market ,
designing and installing outrigger wheels that deploy when coming to a stop so that you do not have to put your feet down would / will be a good option to buy .
that way you can install some sides and a top for the fall/winter/spring wet weather season.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 04 2019 9:59am

Bump, to let readers of the original Electrom thread know about this new and improved version.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by ScooterMan101 » Jul 20 2019 1:59pm

I have been watching to see if there are any updates in the last 2 months. are there any ?

When do you think you will have a rolling chassis for sale with wheels wind screen etc. ?

What does it weigh without the motor and batteries and controller ?

Not sure if you plan on selling a complete bike , or , If you would sell just a the rolling chassis or part of one like less the front fork , less the high handlebars , ( lower bars like on some recumbent's ) ?
( I do very much like the look of Grin's new Gmac , wondering how it would fare for the weight of the Electrom 1 for someone like me who wants to go up mountain passes ?
6- 9 miles long with 6% -10 % + grades , and if the 8T version would even work for those grades with the weight of the Electrom 1 as I would want to get the speed of a 8T motor . )

I like the great idea of using the pedals to spin the small generator . Love your putting on that to Electrom 1 , since I have been thinking for years that is the way to go on a feet forward long drive chain bike of any kind.

What would you sell a complete Rolling Chassis , without all the electronics . ?





tigcross wrote:
May 23 2019 11:42am
Hi guys, here's a video update on the progress of the Electrom1.
the frame is a combination of Aluminum tubing and laser cut and bent plate.
Controller: Grin Phaserunner
Motor: Magic Pie 2 (and the new Grin Splined Gearmotor when it comes in)
top speed: 60 kph
range: 220 km with 2 72 volt 20 AH batteries
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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tigcross   100 W

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Aug 19 2019 2:07pm

He there, sorry about the long delay on a response. It's been a busy summer.
When do you think you will have a rolling chassis for sale with wheels wind screen etc. ?
I hope to have the first offering of Beta bikes out to my indigo backers in early 2020, however, I could start to sell framesets earlier as that work is done.
What does it weigh without the motor and batteries and controller ?
The frame only, without fork, bars or rear shock is less than 18 lbs. bars, steering, fork and controller brings it up to about 30 lbs. as you know, the battery and motor choices can have a significant effect on final weight.
The current build as shown is 120 lbs.
Image

here's a youtube of the stripped down frame.

Not sure if you plan on selling a complete bike , or , If you would sell just a the rolling chassis or part of one like less the front fork , less the high handlebars , ( lower bars like on some recumbent's ) ? ( I do very much like the look of Grin's new Gmac , wondering how it would fare for the weight of the Electrom 1 for someone like me who wants to go up mountain passes ?
The GMAC motor will definitely be one of the motor choices

I plan to offer the bike in three trim levels:
-as a frame and steering kit (1 1/8 4 inch travel MTB fork will work);
-simple cargo set-up;
-full fiberglass fairing and tailbox.
I like the great idea of using the pedals to spin the small generator . Love your putting on that to Electrom 1 , since I have been thinking for years that is the way to go on a feet forward long drive chain bike of any kind.
Yes, the exercise effect of the generator drive is fantastic. and it makes for a very simple and maintenance free drive train.
It is difficult to give an exact estimate until we have completed the production sample, but we estimate that the Frame kit will sell for $2500 USD, the Base Kit will sell for as low as $4,000 USD, and the Deluxe Kit with full tailbox and front fairing will be around $6000 USD.
you can check out the idea a little further at the Indiegogo site. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/elec ... 18212313#/
It is difficult to give an exact estimate until we have completed the production sample, but we estimate that the Frame kit will sell for $2500 USD, the Base Kit will sell for as low as $4,000 USD, and the Deluxe Kit with full tailbox and front fairing will be around $6000 USD.

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Aug 19 2019 2:12pm

Hi ES'rs,
Heres a quick video detailing the Electrom1 Cable steering system that we've been testing over the past few months.

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by neptronix » Aug 19 2019 2:20pm

If i was you i'd offer a hub with very low rotating losses because you are using a 20 inch or smaller wheel after all.
The magic pie for 20" never comes in the right winding and has higher eddy currents than 9C clones because of it's tall stator and additional poles over a 9C type design.

The GMAC or any geared motor for that matter is going to have... actually.. lower efficiency in a vehicle like this, because of the gear drag VS. the actual load. And Paul at em3ev ( involved in engineering these motors to a degree ) has stated that there's a ~500rpm limit for the motors ( before magnets start flying ), which is real easy to knock up against in a 20 inch wheel.

A 4T 27mm or 30mm wide 205 tall DD hub ( 9C, MXUS, etc ) would be an ideal motor choice.
Geared motors? forget it..
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Aug 19 2019 2:50pm

Hi Neptronix, Thanks for the feedback.

I agree totally that a direct-drive motor is the best way to go. I like the simplicity and the reliability, not to mention the reduced hassle.

There were two reasons for choosing the Golden Magic Pie:

-I love the beefy construction of the wheel and rim, it makes for an incredibly road-worthy bike when paired with a 2.75 inch moped tire. That and the cast spokes do a great job of shedding heat.

- Torque-per-watt. the 273 mm diameter motor in the Golden provides for great torque at power levels that are legal in more areas(or at least closer to legal :D).

I am using the external controller version of the Magic Pie as I prefer the Grin controllers and Cycle Analyst.

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by neptronix » Aug 19 2019 3:16pm

You're right about the magic pie casting heat. It was my weapon of choice for the pike's peak hill climb in 2012 or so.

Image

I forgot about this factor. Yeah, your vehicle is over 100lbs fully assembled so you could use it.
You can, however, get some of the wider 30-45mm hubs in scooter/moped/motorcycle composite wheels though. It'd be good for another few % efficiency, which i imagine is important to people buying a vehicle like yours.

I'd still chuck the idea of a geared motor. And that's coming from the guy that made MAC motors popular on this forum.

PS i think the steering mechanism is rad.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Aug 19 2019 11:25pm

thanks. I like that tire. I'm running16 inch 2.75 Heidenau Moped tires and I have to say that one of the best things about the 20 inch bike wheel is that it takes 16 inch moto tires.
I agree that geared hub motors aren't ideal, but they do allow folks in areas with lower power limits to play the game. My thought was to offer the Electrom with a few motor choices to suit the user's needs and local laws.

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Sep 09 2019 3:20pm

I’ve been putting as many test miles onto the new Electrom 1 frame as I can lately. My goal is to get the first frame up to at least 5000 KM of testing in time to make the next set of frames for our Beta backers.

Here’s a quick bit of video I shot while doing early morning speed runs. There’s even a short bit of off-road at the end–It must be pointed out that a long-wheelbase-recumbent-position vehicle like the Electrom is not ideal for off-roading–but I was pleasantly surprised by how well it handled. The 2.75 inch tires and 4 inches of front and rear suspension definitely help a lot.

I should also point out that I shot most of this footage at 5:30 AM when there were very few people about and pre-rode the narrow sections to make sure they were clear before running at higher speeds.

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by thundercamel » Sep 10 2019 8:32am

I love the bike, and the four inches of suspension travel should definitely make off-roading at least possible. I am not a fan of the music though, as it is far to intense. Maybe tape some open cell foam over the microphone as a wind screen :)
My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Jan 26 2020 11:00pm

I’ve been busy carving the foam plugs for the Electrom Bodywork and
am almost ready to start to make the molds. This is a pretty exciting
milestone as it means we’re just a few steps away from a completed
Electrom with full bodywork and Tailbox.

Here’s a Photoshop mock-up of what the completed bodywork will look like as well as some shots of the rough plugs.

Image
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and here's a video of the bike as it is now

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Jan 31 2020 7:55pm

Closing in on being ready to make the molds for the Electrom body panels.

This is the front Foot-well and fairing support plug. It is now polished to a "class A" finish, now it gets four coats of mold-release wax, a misting of PVA Mold release, and then I make the mold.
After that I do the polishing and waxing for the Tail-box and its hatch, then make the molds for those parts. The tail-box will be a bit more complicated as it will be a four part mold whereas the Foot-well is a one-part mold. The indentations at the front of the Foot-well are for headlights.

The Foot-well is the area at the front of the bike that supports the clear fairing.
Image
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Image

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by neptronix » Feb 01 2020 8:50pm

Super awesome, it's great to see progress!!
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Feb 06 2020 11:32am

A few years ago I was riding the old version of the Electrom, and I took it over to Vancouver. While I was there I had the opportunity to have my friend Robin Coope take it for a test ride. Robin is an extremely skeptical person when it comes to recumbent bikes so i really wanted his opinion. After he pronounced that it was “actually pretty interesting” and that I might be onto something.

I was very happy to here that and it was part of what made me feel that I should keep working to bring a consumer version of the Electrom to market. In his day job Robin works on medical devices to research and cure cancer, so he has no time for bad ideas.

I spent a few years designing the new Electrom frame based on al that I learned from riding the previous version, and when I was ready to build the new vehicle I again enlisted Robin’s help. He put his considerable skills in Solidworks to the task of taking my two-dimensional drawings and creating production ready 3D plans to get the new Electrom frame laser cut, bent, and welded. When it came time to assemble those parts into a frame it was Robin’s machining skills that created all of the extra parts required to have an actual working product.

I am eternally grateful for his help. Thanks Robin.

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Using the Cycle Analyst V3 with solar firmware installed to track human energy produced on the Electrom Generator Drive.

Post by tigcross » Feb 07 2020 12:55pm

I’ve been using the Cycle Analyst V3 solar firmware to keep track of the electric functions of the Electrom including the amount of energy I’m producing through my generator drive.

The way the generator drive works is that when the rider pedals, their energy is split at a transfer hub, it goes to the back wheel via chain and also goes up to a three-phase AC low-resistance wind generator that is rated for 300W
I am using a diode rectifier to turn the AC it into DC and from there it passes through the Grin Solar Shunt on its way to the battery. The Solar Shunt passes the generator information up to the Cycle Analyst V3 for display.

It’s been pretty awesome to be able to see how much I’m contributing to the vehicle’s forward propulsion. If I am running 30 kph top speed slow in full Ecomode then I find I can contribute as much as 20% of the energy required to roll the Electrom down the street. If I’m going faster and drawing more energy through the electric motor then I find the human contribution gets as low as about 10%.

With the Generator drive I find I’m getting great exercise, and I love being able to pedal at a constant cadence without having to shift gears, regardless of the speed I am going or the terrain I encounter.

The Complete Bike
Image

Using the Solar Function of the Cycle Analyst V3
Image

The Generating Station
Image

Explanation Videos


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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by matmaxgeds » Feb 08 2020 6:00am

Thanks very much for taking the time to share these videos - are you able to share more on the gear ratios from the pedals to the generator and pedals to the rear hub?

It would also be great to know more about the transfer of rider power from going to the rear wheel when starting, to then shifting to the generator. As I understand it, this is handled automatically by a freewheel, i.e. when the rear wheel (due to the motor) is travelling faster than the rider is driving it, no power is absorbed there, so then it is absorbed by the generator? This leads me to wonder whether there is a system (either manual or automatic) to gradually increase the rider watts absorbed by the generator during this transition (and in general?).

Thanks a lot, have a nice weekend,

Matt

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Feb 08 2020 5:44pm

are you able to share more on the gear ratios from the pedals to the generator and pedals to the rear hub?
Yes, as you surmised, the diversion of human power from the rear wheel to the generator is accoplished by a simple freewheeel. Once the vehicle is over about 12 kph the human energy goes only to the generator. What is cool about th esystme is that it is dead simple, there are no levers or buttons to push, it just happens.

The generator does not start to produce power or offer significant resistance until the pedal RPM is at about 80, so the rider's energy can all go to getting the vehicle up to speed until the transition.

The generator unit used is the 48 Volt version of this one. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3287894 ... 4c4dllVRN5 It needs to be spinning at about 800 RPM to produce 72 volts. The resistance at the pedals changes as the battery voltage drops, because the generator produces power at a lower RPM when it's looking at a lower voltage in the battery. This actually produces a nice feedback situation, if one is demanding hight speed and power, the battery is drawn down and the rider feels a slight increase in resistance at the pedals. But, with no gears to mess around with, it functions like an automatic transmission for a bicycle.

The Gear Rations I'm using:
Cranks are driving a 38 tooth ring to a 13 tooth on the Transfer Hub.
From the Transfer Hub top the back wheel there is another 13 tooth ring driving a 24 tooth cog on the back wheel.
Also from the Transfer Hub, on the other side, bolted to the disk brake mounts, is a 54 tooth #25 chain ring driving an 18 tooth #25 cog threaded onto the generator.

One of the benefits of this set-up is that the free hub on the Transfer Hub allows the rider to stop pedaling without any backlash from the generator that is spinning at 800 RPM. Although the generator quickly slows down to below 800 due to electrical resistance, it still spins for quite some time once the generator output is below battery voltage.
This leads me to wonder whether there is a system (either manual or automatic) to gradually increase the rider watts absorbed by the generator during this transition (and in general?).
I was looking to keep the system as simple and intuitive as possible so there is no adjustment, however as the power generated (and therefore the resistant at the pedals) goes up as a function of RPM, one is able to pedal gently and produce just a 50 or so Watts, or if one is looking for more exercise one just has to pedal a little faster and the wattage/resistance goes up very quickly. This effect also makes for a seamless transition betweeen human-power-to-the-back-wheel and human-power-to-the-generator.

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by matmaxgeds » Feb 10 2020 2:26pm

Very many thanks for taking the time to write this out, the seamless transition part is particularly exciting and sounds great for keeping it as non-distracting and bicycle like as possible.

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Re: Electrom1 Long Wheelbase Recumbent Light Electric Vehicle

Post by tigcross » Feb 12 2020 8:02pm

Thanks.
yes, making sure that the rider experience is better than on a conventional bike is a big part of the goal.

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