Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

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Qazjaw   1 mW

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Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Sep 22 2020 12:04pm

Hey guys, this is my first post so hope the pictures work. This is my second high power ebike build. First was with an eeb frame, qs273, and 200 amp PowerVelocity controller. I learned a lot on that build, and had a lot of fun on the bike, but there were many things that really required improvement. The brakes were a large issue for me. I used dual front brakes with cheap shimano hydro mtb calipers. Even with dual calipers I got barely any braking power. The rear brake was only regen which was another big mistake, however riding through the city (San Francisco) was not to bad, but off-road I suffered. The moto seat I put on the eeb frame was extremely uncomfortable. The size of the frame was too small and the mtb suspension failed to bear the weight of the heavy bike and was very bad when I rode it with my girlfriend on the back which I did very often. Also I had over speced the motor. The qs273 was way to big and heavy for an ebike that size. And it was definitely not necessary in a bike that size. It weighed a third of the bike. This new bike is aimed to solve all these issues as well as give me a large boost in power and torque. I will be using the vector vortex frame with a qs205 3t motor as a mid drive. 15 tooth sprocket upfront with 60 tooth in the back. The suspension and braking issue will be handled by the yz450 Dirt bike front end I got on eBay. The braking power will be tremendous and I now have 300mm of stiff travel (probably a little too stiff) up front. I’m also putting a dual piston moto brake on the rear. I’m still using the 20kw PowerVelocity controller. Building a battery with 18650s that will be 22s20p (maybe less parallel, haven’t decided). I think that pretty much sums it up. I hope I can help a couple people because I know I would have loved to see this thread when researching. Haven’t seen any builds on this frame or with moto suspension. Fire away with any questions you have. This is the start of the build so much more to come. All I have done so far is a rolling frame assembled. Here’s a link to a doc with some photos. Let me know if the photos in thread worked. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AsF ... Mn1MHrWsJY

mbgjt1   10 W

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by mbgjt1 » Sep 24 2020 6:29am

Hey mate,

I'm really glad I found your post...

I'm just starting my first build, and to be honest I'm abit confused. It's no small amount of money and I don't want to screw up badly!

I want to build the bike mostly for road use and a few offroad tracks and trails, I won't really be doing any jumps!

I'd really appreciate your advice on a few points..

1) I was initially going for the QS273, but after your comments and other people's advice about the unsprang mass of the huge motor, I have decided against it. I will instead go for the QS 205 V2 as a hub motor with 4T windings for good acceleration. I guess this is good because it also comes with a 150 mm drop out which would fit most frames. Most importantly I'd prefer acceleration over speed (top speed of 80 - 90km would be great). Would you recommend this motor as a rear hub with a 200A Sabvoton controller? Is this the best combination for acceleration and good off road capability?

2) Frames frames frames. I was going to go for a cheap EEB frame like the one in the following link:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000312 ... hweb201603_

But the weight of this might be too much! Also, I want to also have a passanger on the back (combined weight of myself and passenger at 140kg or so). Is there a stronger, better quality, and lighter frame to get for roughly the same price?
I have had recommendations for a Qulbix frame, have you looked at these before? How do they compare to the Vector vortex?

https://www.qulbix.com/qulbix-products/ ... frame-kits

3) Battery,, would you recommend a DIY battery pack or trying to find something off Alibaba? Most are around 1,500 USD for a 72V 40Ah. What are your recommendations?

let me know what you think, I've been looking at the Sur Ron Ebike but I'm hoping to build something better and faster for roughly the same price (hopefully).

I'd like to see some pictures of your work by the way, best of luck!!

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Sep 25 2020 3:45am

I definitely agree not to go with the qs273 (mine actually had an axle for 150mm dropout. 200 amps is not even close to enough amps for that motor. The winding on my motor was 3.5t which got me to 60mph but not very quickly. I would definitely spring for torque over top speed. It makes for a much more useful and fun bike. It was never fun to be going anywhere over 45mph for me with simple brakes and the small ebb frame with mtb suspension. I rode motorcycles and from that learned that speed isn’t what makes riding fun. I definitely wish I had gotten a 4t winding or even 5t. However if this is your first build you will pretty much be blown away by any turn motor you choose. I know I was, but after a while of riding through the city I realized all of my riding was only up to 30mph and it made me wish I had more power down low. 4t is a great choice for a mostly on road semi off road bike.

I don’t have any experience with the savaton controllers, but I do know that there are fakes out there especially from Alibaba. I would highly recommend the power velocity controllers. They are probably a little more expensive. For $500 you get 200amp and 450 phase amps but the important thing for a beginner it’s super easy to program through the Bluetooth app from your phone. There might be slightly fewer parameters you can set, but everything you need is there and very user friendly. 200amp is a lot and will definitely be satisfactory for a long time.

For the frame, nothing beats the eeb frame when it comes to price. However, the quality is definitely the lowest. Comparing it to my new vortex frame is night and day in quality and design. The eeb side panels are thin plastic that won’t hold up to a crash compared to the vortex which is plastic double the thickness sandwiched in between two layers of thin aluminum. The eeb frame is also nowhere near waterproof with a huge hole in the bottom and openings all around where the vector is totally sealed. The battery mounting In the web is a challenge. There is no real battery box. The enduro seat was what I disliked most about the frame. It really was poorly designed and really uncomfortable. It didn’t fit snug which bugged me and it was tilted so far forward that I would slide down and be sitting on the frame while riding. I also wouldn’t consider the seat made for 2 people. Me and my girlfriend are both under 150lb and although we ride it together all the time, it was very uncomfortable and she was half way off the back of the seat at all times. I know I probably scared you off of this frame, and I think that may good thing, but I would say definitely no if you plan to ride with a passenger comfortably. The vortex frame is $899 which does seem really pricey but it is much better quality all around. If riding with a passenger is an important goal this is the best frame as it also allows for passenger foot pegs which were an oversight for me. When riding the eeb with my girlfriend, she put her feet on the pedals and I put my feet on top of hers. There was not any room for any passenger pegs and believe me I tried to install some. The bike was just to small. If riding with a passenger isn’t a main goal vector also makes the typhoon frame which is similar to the eeb in design but is more expensive. The difference in these is very large as well. They look similar but are very different. I’m not sure if I think the typhoon is worth the extra cash though. I think I would recommend getting a vortex if you can fit it into your budget. Also I would recommend stretching that budget a little further than you would like. It will be worth it in the end and makes the difference between a bike that will last you years and one that only lasts some months. My eeb bike failed 6 months after building because of water. An extra $600 will get you a completely different bike and is definitely worth it considering your large investment thus far. Vector vortex frame I would definitely put at the top of your priority list. Watch the cyber bike videos on YouTube where a guy builds this frame up and is selling them.

I can’t say much on the alibaba battery from experience but I would recommend against. For the price of the batteries, you can guarantee that the cells are not genuine, meaning that the rated power in almost definitely overstated. This means a wasted investment on all your other parts if the battery can only put out say 100amp max. I know this will sound daunting, but your best bet is a homemade pack. You can buy 18650 lithium cells and know they are genuine. You should look into diy bike batteries as it is pretty much the only option when it comes to this power of ebike. You can easily build your own for under $1500 and have a higher performance pack. But good legitimate cells and use the vruzund.com battery connectors. They don’t require spot welding or soldering. With this, a bms, some foam wrapped around, and some heat shrink you now have a Bluetooth enabled high performance pack that will perform amazing for less than $1500. I would recommend a Bluetooth 300amp 20s ant bms. They are $100 on Alibaba.

Add all you need up and it isn’t too much more then a surron, but it is way better in performance.
$1400 vortex frame, rear wheel, shipping
$500 power velocity controller
$350 motor
$1200 for the battery($800 for 200 cells, $100 for bms, $300 for vruzund battery holders)
$500 if you get the dnm downhill mountain bike suspension.
$100 front wheel(many options)
$??? Brakes. You can spend a lot or a little on these and upgrade later or not. I always buy cheap telling myself I’ll upgrade if I need it but never upgrade. Brakes are important for having fun on the bike.
So, for somewhere around $4500 you will have an amazing bike that will last you much longer than an eeb with alibaba battery. Like I said the extra $600 makes all the difference. You could have a surron for $3900 all in or you could triple that power and double the battery life for $600 (not to mention you will have a sick looking bike that can also carry a passenger). Save up a little bit more and spend a little more than you like and you will end up being very happy you did. I had the same idea and budget as you and saw that the minimum price to build one of these bike was around $3500 but I didn’t know how much better it could be to not buy the cheapest. Don’t sell yourself short. Once you build one, there is no turning back. Feel free to ask any more questions.

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Sep 25 2020 4:00am


User avatar
efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Sep 25 2020 9:00am

interesting read so far 👌..
but it could use some "in thread" pics;)
I get "access denied" from your external links:(
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Sep 25 2020 2:28pm

Yes agreed. I still can’t figure out how to get a photo uploaded

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Sep 25 2020 2:49pm

let me know if these show up
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Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Sep 25 2020 3:03pm

my web build photos
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Dung   10 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Dung » Oct 06 2020 4:52pm

Hi

You got link / name for the dirt bike suspension and what is the price?

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Oct 06 2020 8:28pm

I got the fork from eBay for $300. It was off a yz450

Dung   10 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Dung » Oct 07 2020 3:27am

You had a DNM usd8 before how is it compared to this yz450 fork?

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Oct 07 2020 3:39pm

The usd 8 was too soft. With the large battery in my bike weighing it down, the suspension sat very low in its stroke. It was not suited for off road riding. The bicycle brakes were another thing that held the bike back. The moto forks are much stiffer to support the weight of the bike and offer 50 percent more travel. Iit also has motorcycle brakes which are no comparison. They are extremely heavy though weighing about 30lb more than the dnm.

Dung   10 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Dung » Oct 07 2020 3:57pm

Thx for the feed back. 15 kg more than the DNM USD8, wow the bike is about 100 kg.

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Oct 07 2020 5:59pm

Yeah very heavy. I think it will be around 160- 170lb when it’s done.

Badcopyinc   100 µW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Badcopyinc » Oct 10 2020 9:54am

Dung wrote:
Oct 07 2020 3:57pm
Thx for the feed back. 15 kg more than the DNM USD8, wow the bike is about 100 kg.
The vortex weighs 59kg/130lbs, with Kelly 7230S with LCD display,
72V 41.5Ah Panasonic 18650PF Li-Ion, 74v 45Ah, 20s 15p, 3 kWH
Dnm 8s Coil and rcp2, Qs205v3

Badcopyinc   100 µW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Badcopyinc » Oct 10 2020 11:40am

Qazjaw wrote:
Oct 07 2020 3:39pm
The usd 8 was too soft. With the large battery in my bike weighing it down, the suspension sat very low in its stroke. It was not suited for off road riding. The bicycle brakes were another thing that held the bike back. The moto forks are much stiffer to support the weight of the bike and offer 50 percent more travel. Iit also has motorcycle brakes which are no comparison. They are extremely heavy though weighing about 30lb more than the dnm.
Definitely going to follow this thread, I'm curious to hear how it rides with the YZ forks. I might pick those instead of the DNM's even with the extra 30lbs, If i hear that the front end is stable. I read someone else saying how the dirtbike front end will be squirrely at high speeds with that geometry.

Also if you're following along with LADI's Cyberbike, He installed Nucular 24f controller and 44 of the EIG c020b Lipo soft packs which I would recommend against because of the tight tolerance he gave those cells and he used ANT Bms. I believe he had the 60t Sprocket for the promotion video where he's doing burnouts. With stock 18650 cells on one of those bikes your still capable of doing the same thing.

I would add in that I'm not sure doing jumps on the vortex is as much fun as the sur ron looks to be. My biggest sell was the need for more torque and the ability to carry second person and 600 cell capacity on the frame. And the ability to swap between 4 different rear sprockets. its a no brainer if you're hauling or require silent bike.

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Oct 10 2020 1:39pm

I have seen Ladi’s build with the nuclear controller but didn’t find it until I already bought the power velocity. I may upgrade in the future for the extra 100amps and smaller size, along with the lcd display. The yz front end slackens the geometry out a bit which should result in the bike being more stable at high speeds. That is why Harley’s or cruiser bikes are so slack up front. Also why newer mountain bikes keep getting slacker and slacker, to become more capable at speed. Also with a top speed of under 45mph I won’t be going to fast anyway. The Surron will definitely be better on mountain bike or pit bike jumps but I’m not big into riding jumps anyway. Because the bike is much more powerful than the surron, it’s in a class of its own. Should be able to hit larger jumps than the surron with the better suspension and triple the power, but won’t be anywhere near a true motocross bike for jumps.

Badcopyinc   100 µW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Badcopyinc » Oct 18 2020 9:15pm

Did those forks install easy on your frame?

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Oct 18 2020 10:42pm

Yep, bought a harbor freight press to install a1 1/8 stem. Easy as that.

Badcopyinc   100 µW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Badcopyinc » Oct 27 2020 12:16pm

is your rear shock the 350lb? I sent you a pm as well.

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Oct 27 2020 1:58pm

1000lb. Seems to deal with the weight pretty well. With a passenger it sits pretty low. I had the 750lb mtb dnm spring on my last bike and it seemed way softer.

m@dlong   1 µW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by m@dlong » Dec 10 2020 7:43pm

Hi thanks for this thread you started. I know its been awhile. How is your build? Did you finish it yet? If so, I would love to see some photos. Your thread is exactly what I was looking for and you are exactly the source I've been looking to find! I intend to build out a vortex frame and currently sourcing all components. Have you ever put a component link list together?

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Dec 11 2020 12:06am

Finished the battery last week and took it out for its first ride. I’m super happy with the power, suspension, brakes, and really everything. For the past few days I’ve been riding with 50 and 100 battery amps set in the controller. Evan that has been an insane amount of power for me. It will power wheelie no problem at 100 amp. I’ve only done under 100 miles so far but it seems like ill get around 60 miles riding fast and crazy and probably over 100 miles riding slow and conservative. I did some off road riding which was a blast. This thing blows massive roosts all day. I also weighed it and discovered my estimated weight was way off. It weighs 220lb! Still have many lose ends to tie up with the build including the lights and the onboard charger but overall extremely happy with how it turned out.

Qazjaw   1 mW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Qazjaw » Dec 11 2020 12:18am

Some photos
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Shane04   1 µW

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Re: Vector vortex Ebike build with dirt bike suspension

Post by Shane04 » Dec 17 2020 8:49am

Man. Just had to tell you that I love your thread!!! I took the easy route ordering the whole bike through vector...thanks so much for sharing your build!

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