Surly E•D•LHT - Touring eBike Build with BBSHD!

Jaded

100 mW
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
49
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Howdy y'all! I finally finished my Surly Disc Trucker eBike conversion for long-distance touring!
I call it the Surly E•D•LHT (Electric Disc-brake Long Haul Trucker). :D

edlht1.jpg

As some of you may know from previous posts & comments I've made, I did a custom build based on a Surly Disc Trucker frame & wheelset last year & always intended to eventually convert it to electric. Unfortunately I was in a really bad car/bike crash (door opened into me from the right, pushed me into fast moving traffic on the left, was immediately hit by an SUV) & my bike was mostly totaled, though there were some salvageable components. I had a few broken bones & have this annoying scar above my eyebrow now but was very lucky to have survived and without any serious permanent injuries. Took some time to recover & won a lawsuit after that. Once I was all healed up & able to use tools again I decided it was time to rebuild my bike & finally get the motor & battery I wanted to create my dream build. :D

I recorded my entire build process on video & intend to eventually go through it all, do some editing & put together a tutorial or maybe a few. I made another topic about this last month to ask y'all's advice about good video editing software since I'm pretty new to the game of making videos (photography has been my jam for quite some time though). Here's a link to that thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107988 (also check it out if you're interested in seeing more build pics from before it was finished!)

I'm so thrilled with this bike & excited to show it off that I just couldn't wait to put the videos together before making a build thread. :lol: :p So here's just a few of my favorite photos of my bike so far! Also: read on for more info on how it's working out :)

edlht2.jpg
edlht3.jpg
edlht4.jpg
edlht5.jpg

The Nitty-Gritty

I got a 14s7p large rectangle battery from EM3EV that so far has proven to be a great choice. The EggRider v2 display I bought seems to have some trouble calculating its watt-hour capacity (it usually shows around 400wh on the display when the battery is charged around 90% but EM3EV lists it as a 1200wh battery). This concerned me initially but after riding it around plenty & having the EggRider v2 seem to correctly calculate my Wh/Mi when compared to my actual range the numbers do strongly suggest the battery capacity really is 1200wh & the BMS Doctor app finds no faults with the battery. The EggRider also keeps telling me my remaining range is much lower than I know it actually is (it said R6 at one point today but then I pumped out 15 miles & still had 33% capacity left so that's just wrong lol). I tried calibrating the voltage through the EggRider app & although that did get the voltage & battery percentage indicators to line up more closely it didn't seem to effect the Wh-capacity or Range calculations. Not really sure what the issue with that is or how to fix it still, but it's really only been a pretty minor annoyance since functionally everything seems to be working perfectly well.

edlht-batt.jpg

I did make one mistake when ordering the battery & the bag to put it in. I originally intended to mount the battery in a bag within my front triangle in order to keep the weight mostly centered on the bike, but it didn't actually fit there on my 46cm/XS frame. The battery is QUITE hefty & slightly larger than expected. It fits barely inside the triangle on its own but not with the few mm of fabric around it when placed inside the frame bag I got. Even if I had been able to squeeze it in it didn't seem like a good choice since there'd be no room to add any protective foam padding to keep it from getting banged up against the frame. So I ended up buying a trunk bag that it fits into (also just barely lol) & moved some heavier items that I normally carry in the rear (like my u-locks) into the middle frame bag to help offset/recenter the weight a little bit. It is a bit rear-heavy this way but it's not terrible. It's actually working pretty well that way so far. I used layers of 5mm EVA foam cut to size to pad the top of the rear rack underneath the battery bag & put some inside the bag on the sides & top of the battery to help protect it from any dings from the bike tipping over or anything like that.

edlht-batt2.jpg
edlht-batt3.jpg

I've ridden about 150-200 miles on it so far in various conditions & environments (looks like tomorrow will be my first time in the rain though...wish me luck!) & it's all working like a dream. :mrgreen: I've been averaging around 10-12 wh/mi on most rides so far & have even had rides where I only used ~8 wh/mi, which is much better than I had anticipated. I expect that the battery will give me a range of about 80-120 miles per charge when I'm using it on long-distance tours (~100mi average, give or take a little depending on weather, terrain, & how much climbing or descending I end up doing on any particular day).

I have a 42t narrow-wide Lekkie Chainring & a 11-42t 10-speed cassette in the rear so my hill-climbing ability is just absurd. The 42t chainring is a little bit on the small side for me when the bike is unloaded & riding on pavement but it works absolutely perfectly for carrying heavy gear &/or going uphill on a rocky or grassy surface. I have perfect chainline on this bike to get full use out of all 10 gears in the rear, so that's pretty awesome. The Lekkie Buzz Bars with left-side offset are also a great item for keeping me centered in the saddle. I'm using flat mountain bike pedals (ColdSmoke by CyclePunk- they're absolutely gorgeous!) because I'm not a huge fan of clipless on touring setups & also I think they might be pretty scary to use on a high powered eBike.

I'm using four GrinTech Handlebobs to mount the display & throttle on the left side of my bars & a bell & controller for my rear light/turn signal on the right side. I have a rear-view mirror attached at the bar-end on the left side (it works ok) & am using a MicroShift bar-end shifter on the right for the rear derailleur. Bar-end shifters feel just a little clumsier to use than brifters but I find that they're exceptionally bomb-proof on long tours where you really don't want something like that to break or fail on you. That was actually one of the components that survived that awful car crash I was in awhile back. Steel frame was pretzeled, shifter still worked. Also those 36H wheels with Alex DH19 rims miraculously survived. Those parts definitely had their trial by fire & proved themselves worthy of being part of any long distance setup. :flame:

I'm using in-line brake sensors that I ordered on AliExpress because I wanted brake sensors but I also wanted to keep my drop bar setup. I couldn't find the ones that mounted directly onto the brake caliper in stock anywhere, but I managed to get the ones that go the opposite direction to work just fine installed between two lengths of cable housing right up at the handlebars where the cable comes out from under the bar tape.I also decided to run housing along the full length of the shift cable (even though a Surly DT is typically set up with the cable exposed between the barrel adjusters near the top of the downtube & the end of the chainstay) because I wanted a little more protection around the cable (especially under the bottom bracket area where the motor makes some contact with the housing now) & also figured it would help protect the sensor from getting water inside it when it rains as the cable passes through it as I'm shifting. Some folks say this reduces shifting quality by a bit, but I really haven't noticed any issues at all & think it was a good upgrade. For cable management I mostly relied on self-fusing silicon tape to hold cables together & to run them along the frame where I wanted them & that worked really well. I also wrapped a section of the cable for the main wiring harness underneath some cork handlebar tape wrapped around the top tube to make it even more discrete (& it also works to keep the cable from getting pinched when I put my bike up in the repair stand I have at home).

edlht-frontend.jpg
edlht-rearend.jpg
edlht-toptube.jpg

The bike is pretty damn heavy now & not super feasible for me to carry any meaningful distance or up a flight of stairs (unless I strip it completely bare of its bags & accoutrements & take the battery off - then it's a challenge still but doable). The walk assist feature works great for pushing it up ramps & hills though (if the bike is loaded sometimes I have to remove some cargo first, but it's not the end of the world). Pro tip: I've found that it's a really good idea to shift into a low gear/big cog before attempting to use walk assist to push it up a really steep ascent. Makes the job a whole lot easier & I imagine it stresses the motor significantly less. I don't know the exact weight of my bike loaded or unloaded yet. Considering investing in a scale like a proper weight weenie at some point. :p

I reprogrammed the motor through the EggRider app to significantly REDUCE the power in most of the PAS settings. Also limited the throttle a bit. I've been riding analog bikes for about 10 years now & would consider myself an avid cyclist with decent strength & riding ability. I'm also only 5'2" (~160cm) & ~100lb (~45kg) so this thing really flies for me. :bolt: PAS1 uses 11% of max current, PAS2 22%, PAS3 33% etc in the mode I use most often. It's pretty cool that the EggRider lets you have two different profiles programmed into the bike at the same time, so I also have the option of switching into a higher power mode with a stronger throttle & it responds faster to pedal input as well (which I typically use when I find myself riding "offroad" on rougher terrain than pavement or light dirt/gravel). Using the Current Decay setting I also have it set so that the higher powered mode doesn't reduce the current as much as cadence increases.

I normally ride in Eco mode at PAS2. I drop to PAS1 sometimes when I want to save power & go up to PAS3-4 when I want to get somewhere quickly & am less concerned with range. I will briefly use PAS4-6 to get up steep hills. I almost never use PAS7+ but imagine having the option of using EVEN MORE power when I need it will be very handy during long tours where I'm carrying a ton of heavy equipment. I average around 16-18 MPH at PAS2 in Eco Mode on most rides, which isn't super fast by most standards, but I think it's pretty snippy for a big heavy bike that's usually hauling a bunch of stuff around. On the previous iteration of this bike (with no motor & a triple crankset instead) I averaged around 12-14 MPH with my bike loaded up, for comparison.

eggrider-settings-app.jpg
eggrider-settings-eco.png
eggrider-settings-sport.jpg

I'll likely continue to experiment with these settings as time goes on, but for now I'm quite happy with them. I haven't even gotten into messing around with the torque settings page since it looks pretty complicated. I'm sure it's something I'll eventually learn more about & possibly start tweaking in the future.

eggrider-settings-torque.jpg

Conclusion

I am absolutely thrilled with this build & how it's working out for me so far. The range is a little better than I had expected & should do an excellent job of meeting my needs when travelling afar. The 5A charger fills 'er up quickly enough that topping my battery off at diners, shops, libraries, campgrounds & the occasional hotel shouldn't be an issue. With a 1:1 ratio between my chainring & the biggest cog in the rear I'm pretty sure this bike could climb trees at the right angle. I love that the EggRider lets me program the motor on the go if I need to & makes everything super simple to use & setup through my phone. I can also use my phone as a bigger display if I want to, but I generally find that the small display works just fine for my purposes. I'm not exactly wealthy so I spent a lot of time saving up & gathering components bit by bit to make this happen. For me, this is a project that has been a few years in the making. This bike truly is my dream build & now that it's finally done I almost can't believe it's real. This is my primary (only) vehicle (I don't own a car, not a fan of those murder machines - even less of one now that I actually was almost murdered by them) and I really can't say enough about how much I feel like my quality of life has improved in the last two weeks since completing this build. I feel like I can do almost anything on this bike. It's super well-rounded for all kinds of riding: it's decently fast on pavement & pretty good at handling climbs & rough terrain. I wouldn't take it on like a single-track mountain bike trail & I don't think it could handle heavy sand or snow the way I currently have it set up, but I think it will perform just fine in about any other condition I can think of. I am SUPER stoked about this bike, y'all.

edlht-testfit.jpg

:bigthumb: Ride on my friends!
 
Phew! Just got approved for insurance on this thing lol. After that awful crash earlier this year that totaled the previous iteration of this bike I decided that was an extremely worthwhile investment. Since I ordered a 750W controller from EM3EV instead of the more typical 1000W for the BBSHD I was able to meet the eligibility requirements. I think the definition of "street legal" for eBikes is a bit underpowered for what they should be capable of, especially when the laws are completely different for cars (I mean a car that can do 120 or even 160 MPH isn't banned for being overpowered when it's typically driven at <60 MPH on most roadways, nor are suped-up 4WD's... it's the reckless driving that's illegal. Should be similar for eBikes IMHO. I could run a 1500W motor & would still probably use it at closer to 100-200W most of the time, while the extra power would be extremely handy for when I get offroad & such). But the last thing I want is to have to ride uninsured & potentially be unable to receive recompense if I'm hit by a car because the state decides my bike isn't street legal even if I'm only running it at 11-22% power lol...So yeah, my bike is mostly street legal, with I guess some ambiguity because the laws are written in a pretty silly way.

Anyway, super happy to have my bike done & insured & very excited to get on the road more with it. I'm hoping to be able to take it out for a long trip around my birthday next month. :D
 
Jaded said:
Howdy y'all! I finally finished my Surly Disc Trucker eBike conversion for long-distance touring!
I call it the Surly E•D•LHT (Electric Disc-brake Long Haul Trucker). :D

View attachment 15

As some of you may know from previous posts & comments I've made, I did a custom build based on a Surly Disc Trucker frame & wheelset last year & always intended to eventually convert it to electric. Unfortunately I was in a really bad car/bike crash (door opened into me from the right, pushed me into fast moving traffic on the left, was immediately hit by an SUV) & my bike was mostly totaled, though there were some salvageable components. I had a few broken bones & have this annoying scar above my eyebrow now but was very lucky to have survived and without any serious permanent injuries. Took some time to recover & won a lawsuit after that. Once I was all healed up & able to use tools again I decided it was time to rebuild my bike & finally get the motor & battery I wanted to create my dream build. :D

I recorded my entire build process on video & intend to eventually go through it all, do some editing & put together a tutorial or maybe a few. I made another topic about this last month to ask y'all's advice about good video editing software since I'm pretty new to the game of making videos (photography has been my jam for quite some time though). Here's a link to that thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107988 (also check it out if you're interested in seeing more build pics from before it was finished!)

I'm so thrilled with this bike & excited to show it off that I just couldn't wait to put the videos together before making a build thread. [emoji38] [emoji14] So here's just a few of my favorite photos of my bike so far! Also: read on for more info on how it's working out :)

View attachment 14
View attachment 13
View attachment 11
View attachment 9

The Nitty-Gritty

I got a 14s7p large rectangle battery from EM3EV that so far has proven to be a great choice. The EggRider v2 display I bought seems to have some trouble calculating its watt-hour capacity (it usually shows around 400wh on the display when the battery is charged around 90% but EM3EV lists it as a 1200wh battery). This concerned me initially but after riding it around plenty & having the EggRider v2 seem to correctly calculate my Wh/Mi when compared to my actual range the numbers do strongly suggest the battery capacity really is 1200wh & the BMS Doctor app finds no faults with the battery. The EggRider also keeps telling me my remaining range is much lower than I know it actually is (it said R6 at one point today but then I pumped out 15 miles & still had 33% capacity left so that's just wrong lol). I tried calibrating the voltage through the EggRider app & although that did get the voltage & battery percentage indicators to line up more closely it didn't seem to effect the Wh-capacity or Range calculations. Not really sure what the issue with that is or how to fix it still, but it's really only been a pretty minor annoyance since functionally everything seems to be working perfectly well.

View attachment 12

I did make one mistake when ordering the battery & the bag to put it in. I originally intended to mount the battery in a bag within my front triangle in order to keep the weight mostly centered on the bike, but it didn't actually fit there on my 46cm/XS frame. The battery is QUITE hefty & slightly larger than expected. It fits barely inside the triangle on its own but not with the few mm of fabric around it when placed inside the frame bag I got. Even if I had been able to squeeze it in it didn't seem like a good choice since there'd be no room to add any protective foam padding to keep it from getting banged up against the frame. So I ended up buying a trunk bag that it fits into (also just barely lol) & moved some heavier items that I normally carry in the rear (like my u-locks) into the middle frame bag to help offset/recenter the weight a little bit. It is a bit rear-heavy this way but it's not terrible. It's actually working pretty well that way so far. I used layers of 5mm EVA foam cut to size to pad the top of the rear rack underneath the battery bag & put some inside the bag on the sides & top of the battery to help protect it from any dings from the bike tipping over or anything like that.

View attachment 10
View attachment 8

I've ridden about 150-200 miles on it so far in various conditions & environments (looks like tomorrow will be my first time in the rain though...wish me luck!) & it's all working like a dream. :mrgreen: I've been averaging around 10-12 wh/mi on most rides so far & have even had rides where I only used ~8 wh/mi, which is much better than I had anticipated. I expect that the battery will give me a range of about 80-120 miles per charge when I'm using it on long-distance tours (~100mi average, give or take a little depending on weather, terrain, & how much climbing or descending I end up doing on any particular day).

I have a 42t narrow-wide Lekkie Chainring & a 11-42t 10-speed cassette in the rear so my hill-climbing ability is just absurd. The 42t chainring is a little bit on the small side for me when the bike is unloaded & riding on pavement but it works absolutely perfectly for carrying heavy gear &/or going uphill on a rocky or grassy surface. I have perfect chainline on this bike to get full use out of all 10 gears in the rear, so that's pretty awesome. The Lekkie Buzz Bars with left-side offset are also a great item for keeping me centered in the saddle. I'm using flat mountain bike pedals (ColdSmoke by CyclePunk- they're absolutely gorgeous!) because I'm not a huge fan of clipless on touring setups & also I think they might be pretty scary to use on a high powered eBike.

I'm using four GrinTech Handlebobs to mount the display & throttle on the left side of my bars & a bell & controller for my rear light/turn signal on the right side. I have a rear-view mirror attached at the bar-end on the left side (it works ok) & am using a MicroShift bar-end shifter on the right for the rear derailleur. Bar-end shifters feel just a little clumsier to use than brifters but I find that they're exceptionally bomb-proof on long tours where you really don't want something like that to break or fail on you. That was actually one of the components that survived that awful car crash I was in awhile back. Steel frame was pretzeled, shifter still worked. Also those 36H wheels with Alex DH19 rims miraculously survived. Those parts definitely had their trial by fire & proved themselves worthy of being part of any long distance setup. :flame:

I'm using in-line brake sensors that I ordered on AliExpress because I wanted brake sensors but I also wanted to keep my drop bar setup. I couldn't find the ones that mounted directly onto the brake caliper in stock anywhere, but I managed to get the ones that go the opposite direction to work just fine installed between two lengths of cable housing right up at the handlebars where the cable comes out from under the bar tape.I also decided to run housing along the full length of the shift cable (even though a Surly DT is typically set up with the cable exposed between the barrel adjusters near the top of the downtube & the end of the chainstay) because I wanted a little more protection around the cable (especially under the bottom bracket area where the motor makes some contact with the housing now) & also figured it would help protect the sensor from getting water inside it when it rains as the cable passes through it as I'm shifting. Some folks say this reduces shifting quality by a bit, but I really haven't noticed any issues at all & think it was a good upgrade. For cable management I mostly relied on self-fusing silicon tape to hold cables together & to run them along the frame where I wanted them & that worked really well. I also wrapped a section of the cable for the main wiring harness underneath some cork handlebar tape wrapped around the top tube to make it even more discrete (& it also works to keep the cable from getting pinched when I put my bike up in the repair stand I have at home).

View attachment 7
View attachment 6
View attachment 4

The bike is pretty damn heavy now & not super feasible for me to carry any meaningful distance or up a flight of stairs (unless I strip it completely bare of its bags & accoutrements & take the battery off - then it's a challenge still but doable). The walk assist feature works great for pushing it up ramps & hills though (if the bike is loaded sometimes I have to remove some cargo first, but it's not the end of the world). Pro tip: I've found that it's a really good idea to shift into a low gear/big cog before attempting to use walk assist to push it up a really steep ascent. Makes the job a whole lot easier & I imagine it stresses the motor significantly less. I don't know the exact weight of my bike loaded or unloaded yet. Considering investing in a scale like a proper weight weenie at some point. [emoji14]

I reprogrammed the motor through the EggRider app to significantly REDUCE the power in most of the PAS settings. Also limited the throttle a bit. I've been riding analog bikes for about 10 years now & would consider myself an avid cyclist with decent strength & riding ability. I'm also only 5'2" (~160cm) & ~100lb (~45kg) so this thing really flies for me. :bolt: PAS1 uses 11% of max current, PAS2 22%, PAS3 33% etc in the mode I use most often. It's pretty cool that the EggRider lets you have two different profiles programmed into the bike at the same time, so I also have the option of switching into a higher power mode with a stronger throttle & it responds faster to pedal input as well (which I typically use when I find myself riding "offroad" on rougher terrain than pavement or light dirt/gravel). Using the Current Decay setting I also have it set so that the higher powered mode doesn't reduce the current as much as cadence increases.

I normally ride in Eco mode at PAS2. I drop to PAS1 sometimes when I want to save power & go up to PAS3-4 when I want to get somewhere quickly & am less concerned with range. I will briefly use PAS4-6 to get up steep hills. I almost never use PAS7+ but imagine having the option of using EVEN MORE power when I need it will be very handy during long tours where I'm carrying a ton of heavy equipment. I average around 16-18 MPH at PAS2 in Eco Mode on most rides, which isn't super fast by most standards, but I think it's pretty snippy for a big heavy bike that's usually hauling a bunch of stuff around. On the previous iteration of this bike (with no motor & a triple crankset instead) I averaged around 12-14 MPH with my bike loaded up, for comparison.

View attachment 3
View attachment 5
View attachment 2

I'll likely continue to experiment with these settings as time goes on, but for now I'm quite happy with them. I haven't even gotten into messing around with the torque settings page since it looks pretty complicated. I'm sure it's something I'll eventually learn more about & possibly start tweaking in the future.

View attachment 1

Conclusion

I am absolutely thrilled with this build & how it's working out for me so far. The range is a little better than I had expected & should do an excellent job of meeting my needs when travelling afar. The 5A charger fills 'er up quickly enough that topping my battery off at diners, shops, libraries, campgrounds & the occasional hotel shouldn't be an issue. With a 1:1 ratio between my chainring & the biggest cog in the rear I'm pretty sure this bike could climb trees at the right angle. I love that the EggRider lets me program the motor on the go if I need to & makes everything super simple to use & setup through my phone. I can also use my phone as a bigger display if I want to, but I generally find that the small display works just fine for my purposes. I'm not exactly wealthy so I spent a lot of time saving up & gathering components bit by bit to make this happen. For me, this is a project that has been a few years in the making. This bike truly is my dream build & now that it's finally done I almost can't believe it's real. This is my primary (only) vehicle (I don't own a car, not a fan of those murder machines - even less of one now that I actually was almost murdered by them) and I really can't say enough about how much I feel like my quality of life has improved in the last two weeks since completing this build. I feel like I can do almost anything on this bike. It's super well-rounded for all kinds of riding: it's decently fast on pavement & pretty good at handling climbs & rough terrain. I wouldn't take it on like a single-track mountain bike trail & I don't think it could handle heavy sand or snow the way I currently have it set up, but I think it will perform just fine in about any other condition I can think of. I am SUPER stoked about this bike, y'all.



:bigthumb: Ride on my friends!
Great build well done. I want to build a similar longer distance e-bike but with hub motor. I wanted to ask you which controller did you pick and where did you place the controller? Thank you very much, have a great time with your bike [emoji6][emoji1360]

Sent from my Mi MIX 2 using Tapatalk

 
Mike_S said:
Great build well done. I want to build a similar longer distance e-bike but with hub motor. I wanted to ask you which controller did you pick and where did you place the controller? Thank you very much, have a great time with your bike [emoji6][emoji1360]

Hi! I bought all the main components in my kit (battery, motor, etc.) from EM3EV. In the case of the BBSHD the controller is inside of that little circle in front of the chainring/motor body. I ordered a 750W controller from EM3EV since it was an option. So it all came together. Sorry that's probably not much help for your hub build, but good luck with it!

I did build a hub motor eBike for a friend of mine before building my own bike & I got to ride it around for about 100 or so miles. Comparing the feel of the two I have to say I really prefer the mid-drive for travel. It keeps the weight low & center on the bike which really helps with stability on a loaded touring setup. I also feel like the mid-drive has a more natural pedal-sensation than the hub motors but that may not be the case with a torque-sensor based hub, which I've never actually experienced personally.
 
So not only did I ride in the rain for part of the day yesterday & today (& it worked just fine!), but today I also went on a mostly off-road 40 mile ride through the woods at about 20 MPH average with heavy cargo. Bike handled everything like a champ. I used the throttle a lot & still had ~50% battery left (BMS Doctor says 51%, EggRider says 42%...little bit of a discrepancy there) when I got home. :) That was one of the most exhilarating rides I've ever been on...I'm absolutely thrilled with this build lol. As is typical for a touring bike it's very much in the middle of the MTB-RoadBike spectrum. More stable & a little less swift/responsive than a gravel bike but handles gravel & dirt & all that just fine. I feel like both Touring & Gravel bikes can kind of fall under the "All-Road Bike" label...pretty much anything that looks like a road (even if it's a rocky/dirt hiking path) isn't a problem for this bike, and it proved very well today that it can handle offroad too as long as the terrain isn't too technical. I have to use throttle & stand more the harsher the terrain is since I can't stay seated in the saddle while bouncing around without any suspension, but it's still a heck of a lot of fun. Absolutely amazed at what this bike is capable of in terms of versatility & utility. :bolt: :D :bolt:
 
Jaded said:
Mike_S said:
Great build well done. I want to build a similar longer distance e-bike but with hub motor. I wanted to ask you which controller did you pick and where did you place the controller? Thank you very much, have a great time with your bike [emoji6][emoji1360]

Hi! I bought all the main components in my kit (battery, motor, etc.) from EM3EV. In the case of the BBSHD the controller is inside of that little circle in front of the chainring/motor body. I ordered a 750W controller from EM3EV since it was an option. So it all came together. Sorry that's probably not much help for your hub build, but good luck with it!

I did build a hub motor eBike for a friend of mine before building my own bike & I got to ride it around for about 100 or so miles. Comparing the feel of the two I have to say I really prefer the mid-drive for travel. It keeps the weight low & center on the bike which really helps with stability on a loaded touring setup. I also feel like the mid-drive has a more natural pedal-sensation than the hub motors but that may not be the case with a torque-sensor based hub, which I've never actually experienced personally.
Thanks for your answer. Keep on rollin [emoji1783]

Sent from my Mi MIX 2 using Tapatalk

 
Just rode through a downpour :bolt: :shock: :bolt: and the bike handled great! :D Shocked at just how hot my brake rotors got by the end though lol. The EggRider v2 is supposed to be pretty water resistant but I kept it & the throttle covered with a plastic bag/rubberband just to be safe. I also had a rain cover over the bag I keep the battery in. The ride itself was a blast. :mrgreen:
 
Update After ~350 Miles

So after updating the EggRider v2 Display to the most recent firmware following the instructions in the manual/wiki & recalibrating the voltage/battery capacity reading through the EggRider application I've found that the estimates on the display are closer to accurate now than they were before, but still aren't quite right. According to EM3EV's website, the battery that I have is ~1200 wh (14s7p / 52V 23.8Ah) and that seems accurate if I consider how many miles I'm getting out of it & doing some mental math with the wh/mi readout on the display with a total 1200 wh capacity in mind the wh/mi reading seems to be accurate. However the battery percent is still sometimes off by as much as 15% when compared to the BMS Doctor app used to access the BMS data available for the battery (the EggRider always says I have less battery left than the BMS app does, sometimes by as little as 2% but usually more like 8-11% less). It also always says the remaining Wh in the battery is less than it should be. Fully charged the display says there's around 800wh in the battery, when it should be 1.2kwh. But then the wh/mi seems accurate & the range seems appropriate if I assume I do indeed have 1.2kwh. So can't say exactly what's going on with that yet (if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear 'em) but it hasn't been a huge issue so far since it doesn't seem to impede the actual range or functionality of the bike (I've had it assume I had fewer wh left & therefore less range than I knew to be true & then proven this to myself by exceeding the estimated range given by the display by an additional 10+ miles at the same average wh/mi consumption rate.

For some reason the display just seems to think the battery has a bit less juice than it actually does... But the battery is so big that it hasn't been a huge issue, just more of a minor annoyance. I've only intentionally run it below 20% once so far given that I'm not prone to riding 100+ consecutive miles very often lol. However I'm planning to do a big trip around my birthday pretty soon so I'm excited to really see what my bike is capable of when that happens.

You can see what I'm talking about from this discrepancy I recorded after a 32+mi ride (around total mile 250) in the image below:

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So yeah-- weird bug, but otherwise this bike is working out absolutely amazingly & I can't wait to take it out on a long camping trip.

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Yeah, I'm really impressed with what this bike has been able to handle so far. It's a rigid steel frame- not a mountain bike whatsoever, and I could definitely be running better tires for some of the random trails I've been checking out since I finished this build, but it hasn't disappointed me even once yet in being unable to take me anywhere I wanted to go lol. I'm going to be mostly sticking to paved or at least relatively well-kept roads on the long trip I have coming up where I'll be carrying panniers & such on my bike, but it's pretty neat seeing the places it's been able to take me on the shorter trips I've been on recently.

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So happy with this bike. Starting to get friends asking me to build bikes for them too now, and getting everyone to ride bikes instead of cars is all I ever wanted so that feels like a win so far XD
 
great stuff, do please backfill some more build details links etc and keep us updated
 
I have a BBSHD kit and 20 ah battery from EM3ev and my eggrider display and battery information don't match either. If you figure this out please post back. It's the only "problem" I've had with my install, minor but annoying.
 
In your eggrider battery settings try a lower value for voltage 0%, for a 14s battery it should be around 42V (3V per cell).
I'm not sure if your battery percentage is wrong because of that, because I don't have an eggrider, but is worth a try!
 
battery SoC% is never very accurate

hard to do even with dedicated device costing hundreds of dollars

just accept it's a ballpark estimate
 
sp1n4d0 said:
In your eggrider battery settings try a lower value for voltage 0%, for a 14s battery it should be around 42V (3V per cell).
I'm not sure if your battery percentage is wrong because of that, because I don't have an eggrider, but is worth a try!

I bought my battery from EM3EV here: https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s7p-rectangle-battery-pack/
I have the 23.8AH version with Samsung 35E High-Energy cells, which I believe are rated at 3.4Ah per cell (it doesn't actually say on that page, but the other High-Energy version listed with comparable LG Mj1 says those are rated at 3.4Ah per cell). That would actually put the nominal voltage at 47.6V if I'm not mistaken...I've calibrated the battery through the EggRider app a few times & corrected the values (like if you look at the pic in my first post the high end was also set at 58.4V for some reason, which I manually corrected to 58.8V later).

I believe these are the cells used in the battery I have being sold here, and this listing actually rates their nominal voltage at 3.6Ah (max 4.2Ah) :confused: :?: So bit of a puzzle there lol.

john61ct said:
battery SoC% is never very accurate
hard to do even with dedicated device costing hundreds of dollars
just accept it's a ballpark estimate

That's kind of what I figured, although it's just a touch annoying/quirky in my opinion to have the display showing me things like the current wh capacity the battery has remaining & the estimated range that I'll get out of that remaining wh based on my current wh/mi average & to have that just be like...patently inaccurate lol. The Wh (remaining capacity) & the R (estimated remaining range) readings feel almost needlessly distracting if they're not accurate. That's probably my biggest criticism of the EggRider display, which I otherwise love for many of its other features.
 
Jaded said:
nominal voltage at 47.6V if I'm not mistaken
Yes you are, most such cells are rated "nominal" (50% SoC) at 3.6V or 3.7V

so 14S is ~51V, usually labeled "52V" sometimes for marketing purposes even "56V"

Drop-dead last ditch LVC could be 3V = 42V

much higher if you want decent longevity

58.8V HVC, drop-dead too high, better to stop-charge under 58.0V, really the closer to 57V the better for longevity
 
Jaded said:
That's kind of what I figured, although it's just a touch annoying/quirky in my opinion to have the display showing me things like the current wh capacity the battery has remaining & the estimated range that I'll get out of that remaining wh based on my current wh/mi average & to have that just be like...patently inaccurate lol.
Inherent in the level of technology that can be delivered in a small size and low price acceptable to the market.

Nothing to do with any specific device, they try their best.

An MCU could be programmed to learn to be more accurate for your unique rig, riding pattern, usual routes might compensate, cross-reference the shunt measurements with voltage level under certain amp load levels, etc

But the investment required compared to the price hike it justifies. . .

Your intuition over time will do a better job anyway.



 
john61ct said:
Jaded said:
nominal voltage at 47.6V if I'm not mistaken
Yes you are, most such cells are rated "nominal" (50% SoC) at 3.6V or 3.7V

so 14S is ~51V, usually labeled "52V" sometimes for marketing purposes even "56V"

Drop-dead last ditch LVC could be 3V = 42V

much higher if you want decent longevity

58.8V HVC, drop-dead too high, better to stop-charge under 58.0V, really the closer to 57V the better for longevity

I just mean that the maximum voltage for the pack is declaratively 58.8V, I have a 5A charger I bought with the battery that has a Low 90%/High 100% charge switch & typically I use 90% (which is stated to charge to 57.2V, although TBH I have taken it off the charger & had the BMS Doctor app show a higher voltage a few times, but usually nothing too significant). I did top it off fully the first two times I charged it, and since then I haven't really charged it to 100% except in a couple experiments where I was trying to calibrate the display's battery capacity reading & make sure everything was working correctly. I also imagine there will be some moments where I'll want to charge closer to 100% when I'm on long distance tours, but ideally I'll just be topping up as frequently as I can & keeping my battery from ever draining fully.

Is there a reason I'm missing that the programming should be set for a HV <58.8V?

EDIT: Added more info
 
Jaded said:
sp1n4d0 said:
In your eggrider battery settings try a lower value for voltage 0%, for a 14s battery it should be around 42V (3V per cell).
I'm not sure if your battery percentage is wrong because of that, because I don't have an eggrider, but is worth a try!

I bought my battery from EM3EV here: https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s7p-rectangle-battery-pack/
I have the 23.8AH version with Samsung 35E High-Energy cells, which I believe are rated at 3.4Ah per cell (it doesn't actually say on that page, but the other High-Energy version listed with comparable LG Mj1 says those are rated at 3.4Ah per cell). That would actually put the nominal voltage at 47.6V if I'm not mistaken...I've calibrated the battery through the EggRider app a few times & corrected the values (like if you look at the pic in my first post the high end was also set at 58.4V for some reason, which I manually corrected to 58.8V later).

I believe these are the cells used in the battery I have being sold here, and this listing actually rates their nominal voltage at 3.6Ah (max 4.2Ah) :confused: :?: So bit of a puzzle there lol.

john61ct said:
battery SoC% is never very accurate
hard to do even with dedicated device costing hundreds of dollars
just accept it's a ballpark estimate

That's kind of what I figured, although it's just a touch annoying/quirky in my opinion to have the display showing me things like the current wh capacity the battery has remaining & the estimated range that I'll get out of that remaining wh based on my current wh/mi average & to have that just be like...patently inaccurate lol. The Wh (remaining capacity) & the R (estimated remaining range) readings feel almost needlessly distracting if they're not accurate. That's probably my biggest criticism of the EggRider display, which I otherwise love for many of its other features.
Looks like you are making some confusion between capacity, measured with Ah(Ampere hour) and voltage measured in volts (V).

Em3ev consider each cell do have a capacity of 3.4Ah, if you multiply this value with the number of cells in parallel it gives the total package capacity of 23.8Ah.

In terms of Voltage maximum per cell is 4.2V, nominal is considered 3.7V and minimum shouldn't be lower than 3V.
This values multiplied with the number of cells in series gives you the package voltages
52V nominal
58.8V maximum
42V minimum

In the eggrider app the field Voltage 0%, you should enter the pack minimum voltage.

I read in the eggrider manual, if you click in the field Battery Voltage, it appears a drop down menu, if you select 52V it should populate the voltage 0% and 100% with the correct predifined values.
 
sp1n4d0 said:
Looks like you are making some confusion between capacity, measured with Ah(Ampere hour) and voltage measured in volts (V).

Em3ev consider each cell do have a capacity of 3.4Ah, if you multiply this value with the number of cells in parallel it gives the total package capacity of 23.8Ah.

In terms of Voltage maximum per cell is 4.2V, nominal is considered 3.7V and minimum shouldn't be lower than 3V.
This values multiplied with the number of cells in series gives you the package voltages
52V nominal
58.8V maximum
42V minimum

In the eggrider app the field Voltage 0%, you should enter the pack minimum voltage.

I read in the eggrider manual, if you click in the field Battery Voltage, it appears a drop down menu, if you select 52V it should populate the voltage 0% and 100% with the correct predifined values.

Oh you're right, good catch - I see now where my fundamental misunderstanding/mistake was.

Unfortunately the default values from the drop down you're talking about (I read the manual too) end up giving even more incorrect readings than the results that came from using the calibration tool under the advanced settings. However, armed with the greater understanding that I've gained from this thread of conversation I will try experimenting with it some more to see if I can get it a little closer to where I'd like it.
 
Jaded said:
Is there a reason I'm missing that the programming should be set for a HV <58.8V?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1590662#p1590662
 
john61ct said:
Jaded said:
Is there a reason I'm missing that the programming should be set for a HV <58.8V?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1590662#p1590662

Lots of useful information there, but I don't know that it really answers the question that you quoted unless I'm really missing something.

I typically unplug my battery from my bike whenever I charge it. I also know not to leave it unattended for long periods and generally keep an eye on it pretty much the whole time. I use the EM3EV 5A charger with a 90%/100% cut-off switch & generally check the battery stats through the Bluetooth BMS Doctor App & trust the EggRider display's readings a bit less.

When switched to charge to 100% I HAVE actually noticed the voltage showing 58.9V on the BMS app, which I found concerning. Only ever happened once though & again, I typically use the 90% switch to charge my battery. Under the vast majority of circumstances I have no reason to charge my battery higher than that, & kinda wish it also had an 80% option because I'd use that even more around home. According to EM3EV's website the 90% charge should result in the battery being at 57.2V, but I have also seen it show up closer to 57.5V on the BMS App after unplugging it.

The programming I'm referring to in the post you quoted is the EggRider v2 display & has to do with how the display reads the battery voltage, wh capacity & range calculations (the last two of which are the features I was saying seem kinda gimmicky & not very useful unless they're pretty accurate, which for me they've been off typically by as much as 25% most of the time ... even when the voltage is very close to the same as the reading on the BMS app).
 
Jaded said:
Is there a reason I'm missing that the programming should be set for a HV <58.8V?
Because it is less stressful, help extend cycle lifespan.

Not as much as lower C-rate, nor higher avg DoD%

That BU link is a reasonable intro/orientation
 
Jaded said:
Oh you're right, good catch - I see now where my fundamental misunderstanding/mistake was.

Unfortunately the default values from the drop down you're talking about (I read the manual too) end up giving even more incorrect readings than the results that came from using the calibration tool under the advanced settings. However, armed with the greater understanding that I've gained from this thread of conversation I will try experimenting with it some more to see if I can get it a little closer to where I'd like it.

Good luck! I'll be watching this thread to see if you can get a more accurate reading.
 
Update After ~1500 Miles

Alright, so I've had some odd experiences when it comes to the battery capacity reading (especially the "wh" reading) & the range estimations. For a little while it seemed to be getting pretty accurate as I messed around with the settings & went on more long rides. However I pushed it a little too far one day during a heavy downpour...it was kind of dumb but the bike had been handling inclement weather better than I expected up until that point so I didn't wrap the display & throttle in plastic this time and decided to just see how the trip would go. The rain got really bad during the ride- it was possibly the worst storm I've ridden this bike in period. Everything seemed fine until I parked it outside the grocery store on my way home (under an awning where it wasn't getting rained on). After I came back out of the store & started my bike back up I found that all the display settings had been reset... I managed to get home alright & dried everything off thoroughly. Everything seems to be working ok since then with no real lasting damage, except that I haven't been able to get those readings to show up as accurately anymore. I'm not quite sure what I did to get them accurate the first time, so it's a little annoying....but everything is working really well other than that.

I've taken my bike on several 70-150+ mile trips so far including one overnight trip to the beach. I absolutely love this bike & just how much I can do with it. I haven't been riding it as much this month with the roads currently covered in ice in my area...I kinda wish I could afford a pair of studded tires right now but alas this pandemic has left me pretty broke at the moment.

I did end up replacing my chain after around ~1100 miles. It was just barely worn to the 0.75 mark on a ParkTool chain-wear checker. I think my 10s 11-42t cassette should last through another 2 chains if I treat it right. I think I wore out that first chain faster than I might've if I'd been better about shifting earlier on, but it took me awhile to improve my shifting tendencies (specifically I was not shifting into a lower/bigger gear when I needed to as consistently as I should've been at first). I've also had to replace a tire finally (my rear wore out & I rotated the front to the rear & put the new rubber up front). Those Continental tires were on my last build before this one so I'd say it lasted at least ~3500 miles. I've also worn through and replaced the rear set of brake pads (possibly twice?)...I'm not good about wearing my front & rear brakes evenly & tend to rely mostly on the rear except when I really need to stop lol.

I've had absolutely no issues with the motor or controller so far. I'm still using mostly PAS1-2 even on loaded tours, 3-4 on most ascents & 5+ only on really steep or long climbs when I'm carrying a lot or possibly very tired. I'm actually kind of wondering if I over-geared my bike with a 42t chainring since I tend to stay on the three highest gears on my cassette most of the time once I get up to speed. I feel like it would be better if I was using the middle of the cassette more often since I find that it's pretty rare for me to use the biggest sprockets. I'm kind of wondering if a 48t chainring would work better for my application & fitness level. Might end up trying that out at some point in the future.

Also kind of in love with well-applied helicopter tape now lol. I've not exactly been gentle with my bike & have ridden through all kinds of muck & yet all my reflectors, paint & decals still look as good as new. This bike is stupid pretty. I know some folks like to make their bikes look rusted or beat up to discourage theft...I feel like I went the opposite route. I've had people tell me my bike looks like a police bike a few times or that the way I've got it set up looks intimidating to a lot of people hahaha. I am also pretty serious about security when it comes to locking it up and most of the time it never even leaves my sight on a trip, so there's that.


Haven't put my video footage into any tutorials or anything just yet, but I have been taking tons of photos. I've also been wanting an action camera more and more lately...but that's gonna have to wait for quite some time now lol.

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Oops I Forgot the Most Important Thing...

Gosh I can't believe I forgot to mention the coolest thing about this build that I've realized since my post from ~700 miles ago. I'm getting WAY better range than I originally thought I would get from this battery & motor configuration. I originally wanted an eBike that could get at least 100 miles per charge and figured that the 14s7p / 52V 23.8Ah / 1200wh battery that I bought from EM3EV would just barely do that for me. I did a ton of research & saw that many people were getting around 15 wh/mi on their eBike setups, so I figured I might get around that or slightly better given that I'm smaller than average and probably more attuned to cycling in general than the average eBiker. My logic was pretty simple: Some folks are coming to eBikes as an entry to daily exercise, some people aren't even really looking to eBikes for exercise and are more interested in other parts of the sport/hobby, whereas I'm a very small person who will also happily bike 100 miles in a day without a motor (I just hate having terrain & hills dictate the direction of my journeys & wanted a motor to extend the length & scope of my adventures to that end)...so odds were I'd be on the above average side of energy efficiency compared to most eBike riders. Since 15 wh/mi seemed to be what most people were using, I guessed that I'd use more like 10-12, so I reckoned a 1200wh battery would get me around 100-120 miles per charge. I figured that if I was wrong and used more like 15 I would still get about 80 miles per charge, which was acceptable to me, especially since I could always get another battery somewhere down the line for real long trips.

I don't think a second battery is gonna be necessary for me at all lol. I'm actually getting more like 4-6 wh/mi during my long trips. My mileage is better than I thought it'd be in the city, typically <10 wh/mi...and then my range almost doubles once I get out onto long bike trails or country roads. Stopping and starting any kind of motor or engine uses a lot of energy, whereas getting up to a certain speed and then maintaining it for long periods uses very little energy (giant diesel trains get ridiculously good MPG for the same reason...once they get up to speed it doesn't take all that much to keep them going). I'm fine with pedaling quite a lot and outputting plenty of human power on my rides, but having the motor makes me feel like I can carry as much cargo as I want & be able to hit long ascents or go over rough terrain when I need to without really worrying about hitting a point of fatigue. This is exactly what I wanted. I still get great exercise from all of my rides but I feel like I have the option/ability to level out hills or difficult segments so that I can also prioritize meeting my travel goals & go places that I otherwise might have avoided.

My range has typically been about 250-400 miles per charge so far.

This is absolutely my dream bike. I'm gonna go EVERYWHERE with this thing when the f :flame: :bolt: n' pandemic is finally over. :)

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Nice job on the EDLHT! Still liking it? Any change in your range/battery capacity yet?

I was curious about the insurance you mentioned - what provider did you use?

Thanks
 
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