My econo-e-bike

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 10 2022 2:20pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 10 2022 8:14am
Don't remember now, thought the 6 speed was the same width as a 7 speed? Talking about a cassette not a freewheel.

It's been years now, did get both of Grin's TQ arms on. Do remember filing down washers. Even grooved the washer where the cable comes out of the axel to gain a mm. Did not touch the nuts, could take off a bit but makes it harder to start on the threads.
It's definitely narrower. I screwed it onto my old hub, that required two washers to clear the frame, and with the 6 speed installed, there's just around 3/16" of exposed axle before the shoulder. There's also additional space under the first gear cog of the DNP that the Shimano doesn't have. I think mounted on the wider Leaf, one washer should clear the frame.
Free.jpg
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I pulled my old DNP apart to see what the possibility of removing a cog might be. Because of the spacers, I'd need to remove 5th gear, or the third cog, to almost make it work. the problem is that the thread for the lock ring are about less than 1/8" shy of being deep enough to secure the cogs. The remaining threaded portion would need to be cut down (hacksaw/grinder), but almost doable. Two or three well placed tack welds would be enough. Future mod for now.

EDIT: The 6 speed fit perfectly with one washer and no clearance issues! I can pedal comfortably up to about 18mph, so that's good for a leisurely long distance pace. The second Grin torque arm is on, but I haven't anchored it yet.

I forgot all about the digital aux switch that I threw in with my last Grin order. I think that will solve a few things, since I'll use it to adjust PAS levels instead of the analog pot I'm using now, and I'll use the pot for setting the power level, which can help tame the throttle (I noticed that worked better than slowing the ramp too much. I need to test the middle button on the switch to see if it's an on/off or momentary. If on/off, I'll use it for switching on the controller. If it's momentary, I'll use it for cruise control. Either way, I can eliminate some of the other of buttons I have now.

After figuring out all the parts for building a 24" front wheel, I thought I'd do so searching to see if I could find a wheel with similar specs, even though chances are low. I must have timed it just right and found one for about half what it would cost me to build one.

Nimbus Dominator2 24" 42mm (outside width) rim (looks pretty durable); and a DMR Revolver front disc hub (looks OK)
https://www.einradladen.com/Rim-507mm-2 ... ator-Black
https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/ ... c-Hub,7286

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 11 2022 5:07pm

Don't know if you know? or have the CA3! The digital Digital Aux Input for CA 3.1 can be plugged into the same wiring allows it to work in parallel with an analog potentiometer or 3 position switch for independent adjustment of a 2nd limit setting or presets.

Currently using the digital for PAS and the 3 position switch for power settings. Set my ramp up but did not get as aggressive as you cutting it back and don't run as much power as you do. Takes just over a second for full power, just wanted to take away the jerk.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 12 2022 12:11am

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 11 2022 5:07pm
Currently using the digital for PAS and the 3 position switch for power settings. Set my ramp up but did not get as aggressive as you cutting it back and don't run as much power as you do. Takes just over a second for full power, just wanted to take away the jerk.
My plan is to use the Grin switch for PAS like you are, and the analog input using a pot for setting the power limit. I need to test whether when using the pot, if the power range is from zero to the full output of the controller, or between zero and a preset upper limit. (I think both are described as a percentage of "Max"). When using the pot for PAS, the "Max" is the upper power limit set in the CA. If it works that way, I'll use the preset modes for overall power and current limits and slower/faster throttle ramping.

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 12 2022 10:08am

Enjoy, always like reading on your endeavors. Have not been riding in a while and my health is suffering for it. Need to build my 5T edge in my 24" wheel. have it all but need to combine my batteries so I can do 40a continuous.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 12 2022 10:52am

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 12 2022 10:08am
Enjoy, always like reading on your endeavors. Have not been riding in a while and my health is suffering for it. Need to build my 5T edge in my 24" wheel. have it all but need to combine my batteries so I can do 40a continuous.
I hear you. Not really doing that great myself, but doing these mods is at least getting me out more for test rides. I think it's good to have some projects lined up and look forward to. I'm thinking now that this bike will never really be "finished", since there is a laundry list of clean up items that I plan to do some day, but hard to get to or motivated to complete.

I need to make a new connector box, since I used acrylic when I last modified it, and now it's duct taped together since acrylic cracks so easily. I want to bundle all of my cables running to the handlebars, beside the CA cable, using either a multi conductor HiGo or Julet cable. So two cables to the connector box. I'll include the PAS signals in that cable, and run the cable to the PAS from the connector box, rather than directly to the CA. I want to also run 10 gauge for my phase wires and another HiGo/Julet from the connector box, with connector at the motor to make motor removal/maintenance easier, and switch over to XT150 connectors for the phases.

These may all be next winter's projects :lol:, but when my 24" front wheel arrives, I'm going to mount my 26" front and the old hub onto my full suspension bike, so I can stare at it until I'm motivated enough to start that project. That will involve building a battery, so sort of looking forward to that.

I'm also still going to try to modify the DNP freewheel to a 6 speed. I think I can get it narrowed enough to at least eliminate 1 of the extra washers and maybe 2, if I can make a spacer to allow the existing lock ring to clamp the cogs down, then grinding off the excess threads. I'd eliminate the 15T cog and retain both the 13T and 11T. If that works, I'll create a new thread.

EDIT: I needed to go out a grab something, so did a little more Leaf testing. I hadn't tried using the unlimited, bypass throttle setting on the CA yet, so I found a clear spot to try it. I leaned almost lying down on my bike with my shoulders in front of the bars before hitting the throttle. That was just enough to keep the front end down, but I was sort of balancing between that and keeping the rear wheel from spinning. It pulled a lot harder than my 1k hub. Also, at any speed below 23mph, hitting the throttle lifts the front end, so not well suited for regular riding.
I ended up doing a couple of runs using the Race Timer GPS app. I aborted the first run when the wheel came up. I leaned further for the second run at got 0-20 mph is 3 seconds in 100ft, but the rear wheel was spinning for most of that. I think 2.5 sec might be possible if I can manage the wheel spin, but certainly able to hit 30 mph before getting across an intersection. I'll have to do a compare with all the limits in place, and maybe do some tweaking to those settings.

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 13 2022 10:21am

Sounds like you have enough power for now. Riding a trike never worry about lifting the front wheels. Worry about keeping the axel locked down. may some day make some clamping dropouts of some type. Would like to make a new rear fork that could be bolted on. Have rear suspension so a swap out is doable.

You should be able to out drag cars now if you could not before. Like a power switch because of my lack of self control. For long distance best to leave the high power alone but hard when it's at your finger tips.

The leafmotor seems flexible for distance riding and high power when turned up. That and trying to like a 24" wheel think it is a good compromise for power and not having to small of wheel. Think about neptronix talking about the 22" rims, think to small for the rear but would like to try a pair on the front.

Guess I should lace up my motor at least. Have parts for couple different projects. Crashed my trike couple years ago and have not full engaged after that need to saddle up again.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 13 2022 4:44pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 13 2022 10:21am
Guess I should lace up my motor at least. Have parts for couple different projects. Crashed my trike couple years ago and have not full engaged after that need to saddle up again.
When I had big crashes on my motorcycles, I always made it a point to get back to riding as soon as I could get my leg over the saddle. Otherwise, I felt that it would affect my confidence. I'd also find some clear asphalt and practice emergency maneuvers and stops (hard enough to where the rear wheel would get light), to rebuild some of that confidence.

It took longer for me to get back to riding when I crashed my ebike though. More because it takes so much longer to heal now, but still took a while. I blame that crash on the tires I had at the time, that didn't hook up when transitioning from dirt to pavement, resulting in the tires sliding along the edge of the asphalt before crashing. I've been looking for a good rolling tire, but with decent side knobs since then, and I think I finally found one.

https://www.modernbike.com/cst-fringe-t ... bead-black
Image
The center knobs are ramped and close together, so I think it will roll well and with less noise.

Based on the description, it has both of the things I'm looking for, and in the right size. The current fat/plus tire has two strikes against it. Super noisy, like a swarm of hornets going down trail, and having it blow up, likely due to the tire sliding around on the rim. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=114679 So I ended up buying 3 of the CST tires off of ebay, with an offer of $9.25 each, since the shipping cost was the same for 1 or 3, so with shipping they came to $15 each. Not a big risk dollar wise, and if they turn out to work well, I have a spare.

Oh ya, wired up the temp sensor to the CA. At first I thought is wasn't working, until I figured out that you have to turn it on in the setup. Read 63F, which is pretty much the temp in the garage right now, so seems to be calibrated.
Last edited by E-HP on Jan 14 2022 11:13pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 14 2022 10:36am

illegal dumping a pile of brush on the shoulder of a road, hit it just before daylight. on my way to hook up with a bike group. Took several months to be able to ride again. Ride once in a while now just not like before. Starting to affect my fitness, need to find that excitement again.

Glad you have your temperature monitoring working now you can ride with out worries of cooking the motor.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 16 2022 4:00pm

Ugh, shipping was delayed on my tires, so they don't arrive until tomorrow. I have a couple of down hill tires that I bought for riding off road, so mounted on of those just to get riding. It's 24x2.75 but runs narrower (2.6" on my calipers), so definitely smaller than the 3.0 plus tire (2.8" on my calipers) in both width and diameter. The knobs are pretty big, more that 1/4", for good grip on the dirt, but interestingly were way quieter than the 3.0 tires, since the bigger knobs made a much lower hum when rolling.

I rode up and down the hills and the temp sensor works great, and responds quickly as the temps rise, mostly on 10%-15% hills. Once I was satisfied the sensor was working properly, I headed over toward the route I'll be using for testing. It's a 1 mile route, starting on the flats with a steady 10% climb. I started half way up the route, and the motor was a 50C at that point. I used partial throttle for the full route, keeping the bike to around 20mph for the entire climb.
Test Climb.jpg
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The temp rose at a pretty steady rate, reaching 80C at the top. Pretty cool not having to guess, and easy to keep things in check, or to let the CA do the roll back automatically (I'll need to see how that feature works after some further testing). Here's the data I plan on recording for the tests, but may add more:

Test Procedure; conduct 5 iterations:
1. Ensure battery has sufficient charge to complete the test
2. Warm up motor to approximate starting temp of ~40C
3. Record test conditions at starting point of route:
  • Ambient temp
  • Starting motor temp
4. Proceed up test route with a steady speed of 20 mph
  • Record temp at 3/4 mile point
  • Record ending motor temp
  • Record time
5. Return to house
  • Record time
  • Record ending motor temp
  • Record motor temp after 30 minutes
Ultimately I want to determine motor's behavior under load, and how much it can handle, and for how long, before overheating. But I also want enough data to compare against when I do my heat sink testing later. I want to determine how effective the sinks are for dissipating heat under load as well as helping to cool it when resting.

EDIT: Looks like I'll need to alter the test procedures even before starting. I just went for another ride around the neighborhood and figured out that 500W of regen heats up the motor as quickly as 2500W under load. When I rode up the hill and got the motor to about 70C, I stopped. The heat dissipates quickly when the motor stops, so when it dipped down to 58C or so, I started regening down the hill, as soon as I did, the temp starting climbing, pretty quickly past 60C to the mid then upper 60s in a few blocks. Regen started off a little over 500W but dropped as the bike speed slowed. I think I'll eliminate #5 from the procedure, and instead record the temps after reaching the top of the hill and then again after 5 minutes to check the cooling rate.

Not really into the mullet look, but it really climbs like a mountain goat with the big knobs on the rear and so much power on tap. I did a short climb of maybe 300 yards and 20% plus and got to around 68C. I should have put a thermistor in my other motor a long time ago. Once I swap out the front with a 24" wheel, I think it will look pretty normal again.

EDIT: 01-17-22 - UPS just delivered my tires, finally. Too late for messing with them now, but at least I didn't wait around all day waiting for them. I ended up removing the extra washer on the disc side of the motor, which made me redo the torque arm anchoring point, but ended up working out well.

I'm going to order to thread chasing die to clean up the axle threads, since I don't like the way they look from the nut not getting full engagement. Trying to decide on just getting a split die thread chaser, or get a tap and die set, since I might want to clean up the nut threads too.

After getting the torque arm squared away, I went for a quick 30 miles ride on the mullet. The front wheel should get here Thursday, so I may not get around to doing the tire swap until then...although I may have some time tomorrow morning...

Last pic of the mullet look:
Mullet last.jpg
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 18 2022 1:28pm

I couldn't wait until Thursday, when my front wheel should arrive, to mount one of my new cheap tires. These 2.8 tires definitely have more volume than the 2.75, and ride taller, similar to the 3.0 that self destructed. They feel more stable on the rim than the 3.0, and are super quiet, and I can tell already when accelerating that the rolling resistance is better than both tires I've tried so far. They measure 2.6" wide when inflated and 25" in diameter, like the 3.0 tires. I could almost live with the mullet look with this tire mounted, but I think it will look and perform better when matched up with the 24" front.
Mullet 3.jpg
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I think it may be possible with a 24" up front, that I may have enough clearance to make a battery box for my lipos that fits under the down tube. There may be other benefits for cleaning up the look of the bike, including swapping out my controller for the Crystalite that I got off of ebay since it could now fit behind the seat tube. I can lower the rack and get the whole connection box cleaned up too. I also have a couple of clamps that I'll be using to anchor the torque arm on the freewheel side of the hub, since I decided to swap the left and right torque arms which will give me the right angles for making the anchoring points more solid.

Here's the now left side TA. I had to remove the plate that I drilled a tapped for the other TA anchor when I eliminated the extra washer, but that allowed me to anchor directly to the disc brake mounting bolt. The axle on this side is cut slightly over spec, so the Grin TA needs to be pressed on with the axle nut. I'll shim the one I transplanted to the right with a piece of razor blade as usual, but both sides will have a solid bolted anchor (no hose clamps).
Left TA.jpg
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PS. I just realized something and went down to my garage to check. In my haste, I forgot to tighten my axle nuts, so the only thing holding my wheel securely was the single Grin TA. It was a short ride (a couple miles), but it's amazing the wheel didn't fall off. They were hand tight, but the TA was pretty secure, obviously. Could have been ugly otherwise.

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 18 2022 9:27pm

Looks like the TA works, :shock:
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 19 2022 3:00pm

My wheel arrived this morning and I wasted no time mounting the brake disc and tire to test it out (this time I tightened down my axle bolts). Based on a short ride, the tires handle and corner well. I can't tell yet whether it handles better than the 26" front, but I'll perform more thorough testing later.

For now, I'll take the wheel back off, remove the disc, and paint the rim and spokes to match the rear wheel. The wheel and especially the rim, feel very solid, so probably better than if I laced one up myself, but the silver rim looks out of place.
Twenty Four.jpg
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I'm pretty sure with the 24" up front, that I'll have enough clearance to mount a battery box under the downtube that can fit two 10Ah 6S lipos, and remove my top tub bags. I stopped by the plastics store yesterday to look through their scrap box for some ABS. There weren't any suitable pieces, so the guy said he'd cut me a piece. He came back to the front and asked if I was going to cut it up for my project anyway, and when I told him yes, he handed me about 3 times as big a piece and said I could have it for the same price since once he cut it, the other part would go in the scrap box anyway. Now I have enough for redoing my connector box, plus for the battery box!

EDIT: OK, wheel painted with gloss black to match the back. Needs a few minor touch ups from removing the tape near the tire, and there's an "almost" drip on the edge of the rim which seems to be getting a lot less pronounced as it dries, so probably OK.
Painted Wheel Ready to Roll.jpg
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Brackets came in for the right side torque arm anchor point, but it's too big, so working on another plan.

Wheel mounted:
Painted Wheel Ready to Ride.jpg
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 22 2022 2:32pm

I got my right side torque arm anchored and it's super solid. I ended up using a cheap motorcycle mirror mount, since the 1" hole would work well with my seat stays that are just over 0.9", so with a thin spacer, would fit perfectly. I only placed the spacer on the bottom and sides so that the top part of the bracket would be metal to metal contact, and when bolted down, wouldn't create any opportunity for rocking. I had to use my grinder to level out the mating surface for the anchor arm. The anchor arm is just 3/4" galvanized bar that I did a little shaping with my grinder, disc sander and small belt sander. I hit it with some black paint for now (crappy drippy paint job), but will go back and clean up the aesthetics later.
TA Anchor.jpg
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I also cleaned up the threads for both the axle and axle nut, so now it mates perfectly. Since I used a regular die instead of a thread chaser, I had to be really careful about getting it started, but once I got it aligned, it was pretty easy to clean up the threads. The tap was pretty easy to line up for the nut. I have some tube sealant that should arrive later today, so I'll take care of the other side of the axle when I take the wheel off. But for now, I can go out and take advantage of the great weather today.
Threads.jpg
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Funny that I mounted to rear tire twice because I had it on in the wrong direction. Got distracted when I was correcting that, and then remounted it again, backwards. :shock: I always get mixed up when I have the bike upside down. :lol:

Perfect riding weather...
Econo eBike 012222.jpg
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 23 2022 9:35pm

I put tube sealant (FlatOut) in my tires this morning, and turned my back tire around to the right direction this time, flipped the bike over, and then started charging my battery. Cleaned up the threads on the right side hub axle and the nut, so everything is mating smoothly now. Then did a little brake tuning, and replaced my mirror since I snapped the other one off the other day when the wind blew my bike off the center stand.

I wanted to try the 24" setup off road, so planned a route through the hills above where I live. I decided to try a semi-single track trail up the hill that had a lot of tree covering, so it would be cool, since the sun was pretty good today. I expected a fairly easy climb, with a 500 ft elevation gain over a mile and a half. The destination at the top of the hill is the old Nike Missile site, which overlooks the bay. I saw some signs about mud, and then another that warned of slip and fall hazards, but I figured it hadn't rained in a while, so it should be OK. LOL, that was a bad assumption. https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/478565 ... nyon-trail

The trail was wet and the mud was deep. Actually a perfect test for the plus sized tires. In the worst parts, there was no real way to pedal, or walk, so I'm glad I had the Leaf, and throttled through, trying to pick the best line, while steadying with my foot on any berm or patch of grass I could use. There were a couple of spots where I really bogged down and had to start from a stop with my tires 3 inches into mud, and some of those spots were on a 15% grade. The motor held up, and coming out of the muck, I was just climbing to 90C, so I stopped to let things cool down. I don't think I could have made it through on skinnier tires, so the tires worked for this ride at least. The fenders kept me from eating mud :thumb:
Nike 1 sm.jpg
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My tires were pretty packed with mud; I'm glad my frame has decent mud clearance around the stays. The motor was right around 89 degrees at this point.
Nike 2 sm.jpg
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What's left of the site is really just a few concrete foundations, placed around the perimeter, overlooked different directions. The view is pretty panoramic from there.
Nike 3 sm.jpg
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Nike 4sm.jpg
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I was happy to see the water level has risen in the reservoir. Earlier last year it looked almost dry, but a few good rains in the right part of the state helped it recover a lot.
Nike 5 sm.jpg
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I rode up a couple of more dirt hills, but decided to take the paved route back down the hill, and let the mud fly off of the tires.
Nike 6 sm.jpg
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I was expecting a leisurely ride home, happy that the motor withstood some hard testing. All of my riding today was with the three position switch set to low, so 4kW limited, so other than those couple of standing starts in the muck, nothing should have been too abused, so I thought. I stopped at a couple of spots, and when I took off the motor let out a big groan and vibration, and sounded like a fog horn. I'd get it moving and it smoothed out, like silk. This happened 4 or 5 times, and I was worried about getting home. I had something similar happen with my other motor when I had a poor phase wire connection. I also had a complete loss of regen for a minute or so. After the 5th time, it stopped happening and everything ran smoothly all the way home.

I checked and tugged on the phase wire Anderson connections and pushed them together to make sure they were snug. But now I'm wondering if I should open up the motor to inspect it, or open up the controller in case something's going on there, or just replace the Andersons with the XT150s (the current plan anyway) and hope it doesn't reoccur at the wrong time.

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by thundercamel » Jan 23 2022 10:11pm

Nice trail ride and pictures! I had similar problems before with hall sensor problems on the little circuit board inside the motor after riding through a flooded trail. Found the broken connection with a meter, soldered a wire to replace the trace on the board, and it's all good since.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Jan 24 2022 10:46am

thundercamel wrote:
Jan 23 2022 10:11pm
Nice trail ride and pictures! I had similar problems before with hall sensor problems on the little circuit board inside the motor after riding through a flooded trail. Found the broken connection with a meter, soldered a wire to replace the trace on the board, and it's all good since.
I'll keep that in mind. My connector box may also be a possible problem, since it's held together with duct tape and a bungee cord right now, and easy for water to get in, and the wet conditions were a surprise.

I figured out why the trail looked familiar. Almost nobody rides in the uphill direction, and now I realize that I've gone down that trail many times on my mountain bike, and a couple of times on my ebike. But never when the conditions were so muddy. Most people take the easier routes up the hill, including a paved trail option, and then take the trail downhill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR_Eev0_gT4

EDIT 01-30-22 - After being almost certain that I'd need to open the motor and replace at least one hall sensor, I found the loose phase wire due to a poor crimp on one of the Anderson connectors. I found it while replacing them with XT150s, when the wire pulled right out of the Anderson after a small tug.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66489&start=2250#p1698772

Connectors replaced, and with around 55 miles or so without an issue, I'm pretty sure that was the problem. The replacement hall sensors get here in a couple of days, but now they're just spares. LOL

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Feb 02 2022 1:20am

The 5 pin HiGo extension cable arrived today, so I'm going to be testing the Crystalite controller that I got on an impulse buy from ebay. It's 60A continuous, so would be a downgrade if I end up using it, but during every day riding, I usually max out at 60A anyway, so might not make too much of a difference.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114561&p=1694880#p1694880

If it works out, my plan is to rearrange where I mount the controller, locate the connector box, and the lipo packs. The controller is narrower than my PV controller, and will fit behind my seat tube with 1/2" clearance, now that I'm using the 24" wheels. The connector box will go directly under it where the seat tube and chains meet. I'll fabricate a battery box for my lipos and mount that below the down tube, and get rid of the top tube bags. I'll also be able to lower the rear rack too. I'll be able to clean up all the cable routing too.

The Crystalite controller has a pretty long cable bundle with the phase, hall, and temp sensor wires shrink wrapped together. It's actually long enough to reach all the way to the motor, with some more to spare. If the controller works out, I'll take the opportunity to shorten the Leaf motor cables, running the thicker controller cable right up to the Leaf, where I'll add the XT150 connectors, for easier maintenance.

Here's the mock up with the controller in green, connector box in blue and battery box in gray. That lets me lower my rack about 3 inches
Controller swap.jpg
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thundercamel   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by thundercamel » Feb 07 2022 12:22pm

Would be cleaner for sure. That's where I have the controller on StefEbike:

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My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Feb 07 2022 1:36pm

thundercamel wrote:
Feb 07 2022 12:22pm
Would be cleaner for sure. That's where I have the controller on StefEbike:
I ran into a snag with the Crystalite controller. I made an adapter for the 5 pin HiGo to standard Molex for the halls, then connected the power, CA plug, halls and phases, which seems like the minimum connections to test with. Twisted the throttle and nothing. Swapped the phase wires with various combos and still nothing. CA lights up works, throttle signal output seems to be working. I didn't connect the a throttle directly to the controller, since the CA plug should be the only interface needed, so I may need to but first I'll test for continuity between the CA plug throttle input to the controller, and the throttle connector. I would have already testing the throttle, except the controller uses a 3 pin HiGo for the throttle, and I didn't want to hack it off yet for testing.

I'm getting 5V on the throttle connector, so at least that's working and I'm also seeing voltage on the hall connector as well.

EDIT: Looks like I'll need to open up the controller again and check the wiring. I believe that I should have continuity between the CA plug throttle pin and the controller throttle signal pin, but I'm seeing something around 500kohms between the CA pin and any of the throttle pins.

EDIT 02-09-22 - OK now that I've put a 150 miles or so on these tires, I'm more sensitive to the noise, but it's still not too bad. It's a higher pitched hornet's nest sound, but the volume is not as loud as the 3.0 fat/plus tire. It's fairly competent on dirt, ok in mud, and pretty good cornering traction on pavement. It's weak on sand for maneuvering, but doesn't dig in and bury itself. Gravel on pavement or hardpack doesn't inspire confidence. They seem to roll pretty well, but I need to collect some data to know for sure; but they don't feel sluggish when accelerating.

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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Feb 13 2022 12:44pm

After a month with the Leaf motor, I have formed some initial impressions, mostly positive. I'm pretty impressed about the performance gain of a wider stator. The motor pulls harder with the same level of power/current as my old motor and the mid range is really fun. But, to run it at 72V or above, you need to control the throttle ramping or invest in a better throttle. I got cocky the other day, since I felt I got a better feel for it, and bypassed the CA throttle controls. That was stupid. I thought if I got up over 25mph or so, it would be safe to open it up, and I cracked the throttle open to around 1/2 and the front wheel came up fast at 27mph. I stopped and switched the CA back into the equation. I may need to get a Domino throttle later if I want to play with that more. The motor continues to impress all the way around.

My temperature testing of the Leaf isn't going the way I planned. It's just too boring to take the same route a bunch of times to collect the data, so instead I've been taking a variety of routes up the hill with sort of varying grades that average out to around 12%-13%. In general, I'll get to around 90C by the top, depending on the starting temps, which are around 40C. I'm observing about a 10C per minute cool down rate. All this is approximate, but a little better than anecdotal, since I'm at least keeping track of some of the conditions and have a way to measure the temps. I could probably ride 90% of the places I ride without having to worry about temps, so that's good.

Yesterday I rode up a hill that I usually only ride down. Riding down the hill usually gets me around 1.5V added back to my battery in regen, so it's fairly steep (~22% at the steepest part). To cut to the chase, I had to stop twice on the ascent to let the motor cool. The first time at around 95C, only because the temp was rising fast between the CA refreshing, and there was a spot to pull over. I let the temp drop to 70C and starting riding. The second stop was at 112C. I let the motor cool again, then completed the climb.

Right now, I'm ready to just add the experimental heat sinks and see it they slow down the heating and improving the cool down times. If they have a measurable effect, or enough to matter, I think I'll be able to tell; and maybe more from the cool down rate, since that seems pretty consistent. I'm on the fence about whether the 6T would have been a better choice for me, given I don't need the speed, but I'm not sure the 6T would perform in the midrange the way this motor does. I would be great to have both for side by side testing :lol: . The 6T has more copper fill than the 5T, so that's another factor. Anyway, no regrets so far, and if the heat sinks improve things, even better.

Yesterday's route:
20 grade.jpg
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20 percent.jpg
20 percent.jpg (167.67 KiB) Viewed 429 times
This is around 18%, coming up toward the 22% section.
google.jpg
google.jpg (477.64 KiB) Viewed 429 times

calab   100 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by calab » Feb 13 2022 12:57pm

Wouldnt that throttle be a problem without it being a Leaf 1500w?

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Feb 13 2022 2:50pm

calab wrote:
Feb 13 2022 12:57pm
Wouldnt that throttle be a problem without it being a Leaf 1500w?
Yes, but magnified by the motor. It was uncontrollable with the old motor too, but not at the higher speeds. Basically this is an issue from going high in voltage, since the throttle represents a broader voltage range, so twice as much as running 36V for instance. With my 1000W motor, it would wheelie uncontrollably from the dead start or maybe up to 10 mph, but no wheelies above that otherwise. It would wheelie at higher speeds if I flipped the 3 position switch to high, while on the throttle, but not just by twisting the throttle.

On another note, I finally got around to fine tuning my WGain and AGain settings and now the motor is performing silky smooth throughout the range. I was getting some pulsing that would get pretty intense at higher speeds while accelerating. I don't know why I didn't fix it earlier, but probably not a priority given that I don't ride that fast most of the time.

EDIT 1 02-16-22 I broke my cheapo gopro clone during my last offroad ride. The trail was too rough and the internal lens components seemed to fall apart, and you could see in recorded video, parts moving around the lens and blocking the frame.

I ended up getting a real gopro, a used Hero 7. I can't believe how the stabilization works on the camera. Really impressive. I've only taken a couple of test videos, but the image is super stable, even over big bumps. I tried to capture the midrange acceleration I'm getting with the Leaf motor, but it's hard to show without some reference points. Here, I'm going under an overpass, entering at around 13 mph or so, and roll on the throttle after the first no parking sign, accelerate up to 30 mph, then shut it down about 20 ft before coming out from the underpass. Anyway, I'm going to be playing with this new toy for a while. I only played with the other one a couple of times, but with the stabilization, I can actually shoot some decent videos with this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5TXlqKzEr4

EDIT 2 02-16-22 Did another temperature test this evening. I rode over to a short paved path, with starting elevation of 141 ft, motor was at around 38C. The path usually doesn't have many people on it at that time, so I could get up to my 20-23 mph testing speed. I start out at around a 7% grade and steepens near the top to just short of 18%. I had to slow down and act like I was pedaling in the middle for a while due to a dog walker.
https://youtu.be/y2NhG_aOLKE
I rode slowly up and past the park at the top acting like I was pedaling. Temp was around 68C. Next section of roadway is mixed 10% to 17% grades. I kept it right around 22 mph. I pulled over at the top of that section with the motor right around 90C. I let it drop to about 78C before continuing on.
https://youtu.be/a166AU0YxeU
The last leg starts out level, goes to 10%, then 15% at the end; elevation 676 ft.; or 535 ft gain. You can get a good idea of how the tires sound, since the bike is otherwise silent. Not too annoying, but not silent. It was interesting that the motor got back up to 90C pretty fast climbing at 10%, but only hit 98C at the top. You can hear the hum of the motor regening going back down. It's putting out 488W-600W when the bike has some speed, but only 250W-350W as it slows.
https://youtu.be/extE8Qg3hYg
I may alter this route to cut out the short flat section (I made a right to let the motor rest instead of going straight at the intersection). That will shorten the distance, and I wouldn't have to make that left by the curve where I almost got creamed by that pickup truck. It would pretty much eliminate any flat sections that would allow time for the motor to rest/cool. I may be able to make it the whole way without stopping, but keep the motor under 100C.

EDIT 02-17-22 I tried another route today, basically with the same start and end points, but street only, which made it easier to maintain speed. I also didn't try to maintain a single speed, but just rode normally, but with a minimum speed of 20 MPH. The route has several turns, but only two intersections to deal with, and there aren't a lot of cars.
550 FT elevation gain; 1.1 miles; mixed grades between 7% and 20%; beginning temp: 31C ; ending temp: 89C
Average Grade: 9.5%
Temp Test Route.jpg
Temp Test Route.jpg (55.96 KiB) Viewed 341 times
Started out at 31C. I'm usually pedaling so it felt weird riding throttle only, but fun at the same time. I fake pedaled a couple of times around people. The steepest parts of this section are about 15%.
https://youtu.be/QePBaZwyELE
This section is the same as the other route, but instead of going right at the second stop sign, I continue straight up the hill. This section is a gradually increasing grade, just over 20% for a short part at the top. The motor temp looked OK, so I sped up to about 30 MPH when the coast was clear. Motor hit 89C, so 58C rise over the starting point temp.
https://youtu.be/vuNq3SzFDkc

3-position switch set to low, so limited to around 4.3k

EDIT 02-27-22
Short climb; 23.9C starting temp, 53.7C ending temp; 0.21 mile @ 30MPH, 14%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omWlSvJwpVQ

EDIT 03-07-22
I've been too lazy to pedal lately, so playing around riding throttle only. Yesterday out by the bay:
https://youtu.be/7TX0V8U5EQs
https://youtu.be/cQE1D3cPFy4
The bike is still pretty silent, but you can hear that faint buzz of the tires.

The bike path was clear, so I tested what speed I could get to before the next intersection; one medium block.
0 to 42 to 0, battery half charged (~76V):
https://youtu.be/lKvAA4w6VM4

EDIT 03-09-22
I ended up RMA-ing 3 of the 4 new lipos I bought since they weren't staying balanced. So I'm not using the piggy back packs in parallel with my 52V battery for now. Running lipos in series requires all the cells to be matched, just like when building a battery pack, and I noticed that they go out of balance during bulk charging if they aren't. Hopefully the new lipos are better then the first set. I got used to not having voltage sag, and it shows up under hard acceleration, adding 3/4 second to my 0-30mph time without them.

I did another one block speed run, and this time without the piggy back packs, I was able to eek out 44mph (technically 43.9mph) in about the same distance (I shut it down early since there was a bicycle going the other direction near the end). The difference between the two runs is the first was with the batteries at 76V, but with very little sag, and charged to 81V, but with a decent amount of sag from the dead stop.
https://youtu.be/kai-ahYt-Ok

EDIT: 04-06-22
The replacement lipos arrive a week ago and I've charged them a few times and they are staying balanced, which is great and a lot less hassle.

I just realized that I'm coming up on 4000 miles on the original set of brake pads that came with my Avid BB7 brakes. Looking at the pads, it looks like there's still a bit to go. I'll probably switch to hydraulic before they wear out. I basically barely ever use my brakes, even riding on all the hills around my house. Using throttle only, with slide regen, I just put the throttle at the speed I want to go, whether faster or slower, and at most intersectionns or slow sections, slowing down to the 6 mph the regen goes down to is all that's needed. I only touch the brake lever if I want to come to dead stop.

I took this video after climbing up my typical route, 600 ft, then down. I'm already most of the way down here, but you can see I'm keeping the bike at around 20mph, when coasting it would be going over 30mph, just by feathering the throttle, I slow down 2 or 3 times to 6mph, before taking off again. I only tap the brake lever at the very end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h_hBknBmgQ
Last edited by E-HP on Apr 08 2022 8:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Apr 08 2022 11:04am

I’ve been pretty satisfied with the performance of these CST Fringe tires up until now. They’ve been great on the mix of on and offroad riding I do, and have had decent traction in mud and climbing pretty steep trails. That said, while inspecting them last week, I noticed the tread wear on the rear tire was pretty obvious. With less than 500 miles on them, the knobs are pretty worn. Maybe a couple hundred more and they might be bald, or at least not useful for offroad climbing.
CST Tread.jpg
CST Tread.jpg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 215 times
I also noticed uneven wear, and looking more closely, it looks like I need to file my right dropout slightly, since I can see by the seat stay clearance that there’s a slight tilt. So after searching again for another 24x2.8 - 24x3.0 tire, I ended up ordering these Specialized Big Rollers to try out. They were on sale really cheap on the Specialized website so I got a couple in case it was a close out.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/big-r ... 00116-1948

The tread pattern and profile is pretty similar to the CSTs, so I’m expecting similar performance, but hopefully the rubber compound will provide a little more mileage. The front CST still looks new, so since I got 3 originally, I have an extra front. I’ve pretty much given up on finding a good 24x3.0, but if anyone knows of one...

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Eastwood   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by Eastwood » Apr 08 2022 6:38pm

E-HP wrote:
Apr 08 2022 11:04am
I’ve been pretty satisfied with the performance of these CST Fringe tires up until now. They’ve been great on the mix of on and offroad riding I do, and have had decent traction in mud and climbing pretty steep trails. That said, while inspecting them last week, I noticed the tread wear on the rear tire was pretty obvious. With less than 500 miles on them, the knobs are pretty worn. Maybe a couple hundred more and they might be bald, or at least not useful for offroad climbing.
CST Tread.jpg

I also noticed uneven wear, and looking more closely, it looks like I need to file my right dropout slightly, since I can see by the seat stay clearance that there’s a slight tilt. So after searching again for another 24x2.8 - 24x3.0 tire, I ended up ordering these Specialized Big Rollers to try out. They were on sale really cheap on the Specialized website so I got a couple in case it was a close out.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/big-r ... 00116-1948

The tread pattern and profile is pretty similar to the CSTs, so I’m expecting similar performance, but hopefully the rubber compound will provide a little more mileage. The front CST still looks new, so since I got 3 originally, I have an extra front. I’ve pretty much given up on finding a good 24x3.0, but if anyone knows of one...
Looks like you lean toward the right a little more aggressive than you do the left, by looking at the tire. I do the same but I tend to lean further when I turn to the left. Maybe you’re left-handed?
I subscribe to your YouTube, I didn’t see your build thread until now.
My build thread, enduro frame :bolt: :bolt: :bolt:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=113133

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Apr 08 2022 7:15pm

Eastwood wrote:
Apr 08 2022 6:38pm
Looks like you lean toward the right a little more aggressive than you do the left, by looking at the tire. I do the same but I tend to lean further when I turn to the left. Maybe you’re left-handed?
I subscribe to your YouTube, I didn’t see your build thread until now.
Could be, but I think most of it is from the right drop out needing some filing. Now I recall I had some leaning issues with my last wheel, but with the 2.8 tires sit much closer to the chainstays than the 2.4, so it's really easy to see the clearance is narrower on one side.

I don't really have a YouTube "channel", but use it to upload videos when sharing with friends or my kids. I'll probably reposition where the GoPro mounts, so I can record the temp data in real time, saving me from having to stop and take notes. The cheap old camera it replaced worked well for recording statistics. I haven't figured out how it all works yet, but I was surprised at the video quality and stabilization.

EDIT: 04-09-22
I took my time filing and ended up taking the wheel on an off 3 times. That eliminated about 90% of the difference, with maybe 1/16" left that's due to the dish rather than wheel tilt/dropout depth. When I get around to doing a final truing of the wheel and replacing all of the mangled spoke nipples, I'll take care of the minor dishing adjustment. For now though, the bike rides so much better that I can't believe I was living with it for so long now (since installing the Leaf).

The new tire definitley has bigger knobs, not big for mountain bike tires, but bigger than the CST tires. It handled similarly, so not a big difference at least on my first ride. I'll test some harder cornering tomorrow.

EDIT: 04-13-22
I was watching BigBlock's at xKillah video, and the part near the end where he displays the bike's accelaration times and then compared them agains my 0-30mph times, and my videos of going 0-40 mph. That bike is crazy quick; he's past 50mph when I'm reaching 25mph, and it looks controlled off the line too!
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=113672&start=75#p1710933
https://youtu.be/on_bjkgD2yw?t=190

I'm not sure what kind of upgrade I'll need to beat my previous times. If I were serious, I could switch to lighter tires and tubes, since mine have an extra tube each and sealant. Future experiment.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=115012&p=1700804&hi ... n#p1701042

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