My econo-e-bike

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99t4   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by 99t4 » Nov 18 2021 2:02am

Rack for the FS: What about folding the rack rear supports more forward so they can attach to the seat tube instead of the seat stays? Wouldn't be as stable, but maybe enough? (something like this:)
Image

I like that Leaf 1500W motor also, want to use one for my next project. Did you order frewheel or cassette version? Did you check the axle O.A.L.? Some have been complaining the Leaf axles are short, not enough length to use two TAs.

What did they quote for shipping time?

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markz   100 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by markz » Nov 18 2021 2:04am

Wishful thinking on the shipping time.
My axle length on the leaf 1.5kw is short but I can fit two ta's in, 1/4" steel plate on 135mm dropouts.
99t4 wrote:
Nov 18 2021 2:02am
What did they quote for shipping time?

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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 18 2021 2:51am

99t4 wrote:
Nov 18 2021 2:02am
What did they quote for shipping time?
"This parcel was shipped (with all Items) to Shenzhen & Hongkong by UC express this afternoon.
It will arrive in Shenzhen two days later.
Then our shipping company will ship it to USA by ups express from Hongkong airport.
** We will send you ups tracking number later.
"

I think I'd need something more sturdy/durable as far as a rack goes. My last one lasted about a year before one of the legs broke.
I went with the freewheel. Taking my chances that the axle will be normal. :shock:

EDIT: 11/22/21 Shipped! Got a UPS tracking number at least.
Last edited by E-HP on Nov 22 2021 11:34am, edited 1 time in total.

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PeteCress   1 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by PeteCress » Nov 18 2021 7:45am

If that ThudBuster is the origional single-bolt version, I strongly advise replacing it with a two-bolt version.

Reason: They break. The head of the bolt shears off.

Mine broke and I escaped with minor injury after being suddenly introduced to the bike's top tube. A guy in California whose court case I testified in was not so lucky...
--
PeteCresswell

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thundercamel   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by thundercamel » Nov 18 2021 11:48am

I'm having deja-vu...

Congrats on the upgrades! I love the feel of hydraulic brakes with Shimano B01S pads. I've been wanting to switch to full suspension ever since I built the PHAT-E bike for my brother in law to commute with. Riding it ruined me for hard tail bikes.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 18 2021 3:01pm

thundercamel wrote:
Nov 18 2021 11:48am
I'm having deja-vu...

Congrats on the upgrades! I love the feel of hydraulic brakes with Shimano B01S pads. I've been wanting to switch to full suspension ever since I built the PHAT-E bike for my brother in law to commute with. Riding it ruined me for hard tail bikes.
Well I'm worried I'll feel the same once I put a motor on my other bike, so I may be looking for some creative battery mounting solutions. If that happens, the Leaf will be moving to full suspension LOL.

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 19 2021 11:03am

Bought one of walmart's mongoose xr pro mountain bike. It's an online only thing. Was building it and gave it to my brother, I liked riding it. Can't ride up right very long and got into my trike. May get another to do short rides to the store. Full suspension is very nice after a hard tail but no battery room. Would need a custom battery.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by 2old » Nov 19 2021 11:30am

There's a thread on FS bikes with plenty of space for batteries, but most (all?) are several years old (like GT I-Drives). Of course any model with URT would be a candidate.

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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 19 2021 11:41am

ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 19 2021 11:03am
Bought one of walmart's mongoose xr pro mountain bike. It's an online only thing. Was building it and gave it to my brother, I liked riding it. Can't ride up right very long and got into my trike. May get another to do short rides to the store. Full suspension is very nice after a hard tail but no battery room. Would need a custom battery.
This is the space I have to work with, better than some FS bikes, but less than some of the older Trek and Giant FS models:
Image

I think I can get three of these 12Ah lipos, in series, in the triangle to get to 60V:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-gra ... _analytics

And for longer rides, I'd piggyback my three existing 6S 8Ah that I have in my toptube bag:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-gra ... _analytics

With just the 3 12Ah at 15C, that would be 180A, so at 60A I shouldn't have much sag, but adding the 8Ah packs, that's 300A, so I'm guessing no sag at 60A. I know the ratings are optimistic, but even at half of those ratings, I have plenty of headroom.

The other route I'm thinking of is seeing if I can get 80 21700 cells in the space with a custom pack for the triangle (18S4P, 60V 16Ah), and still have the piggyback option for more range:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/colle ... amsung-40t

I have a lot more research to do on 21700 cells though before selecting the right cells.

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thundercamel   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by thundercamel » Nov 19 2021 12:01pm

When I built a pack using 21700 cells, I chose Samsung 50E for their long cycle life. Similar to LG MJ1 and M36 in 18650 format. I just wish I had bought enough for my recumbent when they were <$5 each on liionwholesale.com at the beginning of the year.
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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 19 2021 1:39pm

thundercamel wrote:
Nov 19 2021 12:01pm
When I built a pack using 21700 cells, I chose Samsung 50E for their long cycle life. Similar to LG MJ1 and M36 in 18650 format. I just wish I had bought enough for my recumbent when they were <$5 each on liionwholesale.com at the beginning of the year.
I haven't started researching vendors yet. Are they a good supplier?

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thundercamel   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by thundercamel » Nov 19 2021 3:28pm

They are definitely good, and I've done about 5 orders with them now. Problem is they don't sell unprotected LG cells anymore, and the 50E cell I want have been out of stock since spring started.

18650batterystore has them in stock, but no pricing discounts as the quantity goes up. I haven't tried NKON yet. I once emailed the queenbattery gmail address for "the best price," and what they quoted was higher than their ali express store. When i asked them about that, they raised the prices at the store.
My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 25 2021 12:13pm

I don't know about other's experience, but this is the fastest I've ever seen something move through the system from China:
shipping.jpg
shipping.jpg (71.82 KiB) Viewed 607 times
I wasn't expecting to receive the motor for a while, and haven't even ordered the Statorade yet. I may order a second Grin torque arm if I order from their site instead of Amazon. But it I could be riding my new Leaf before Christmas! :lol:

EDIT: 11/26/21 - status says Loaded on Delivery Vehicle !

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thundercamel   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by thundercamel » Nov 26 2021 11:22pm

I also have never seen anything move that fast from China. The shipping fee from Leaf is over $100, right? That's the reason I haven't gotten one yet. Ebikeling or Voilamart and others seem close enough (all 0.35mm laminations in the ones I've opened) though somewhat a gamble on what KV you get.
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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 27 2021 12:29am

thundercamel wrote:
Nov 26 2021 11:22pm
I also have never seen anything move that fast from China. The shipping fee from Leaf is over $100, right? That's the reason I haven't gotten one yet. Ebikeling or Voilamart and others seem close enough (all 0.35mm laminations in the ones I've opened) though somewhat a gamble on what KV you get.
I'm pretending that I'm just paying "X" for a hub motor and rim. It's not just the shipping. I didn't want to do a wire for paying, and used PayPal,, which had another fee on top of everything. Buy once, cry once. I'm opening the box in a few minutes, and plan to forgot all about the money part after looking the wheel over. :thumb:

Update: I don't think I've ever seen better packaging than this motor came in. And even the outside of the box was perfect, like it had been pampered. Motor looks good, came with spare spokes and a bag of parts. No rim tape. I specified 2.5" tire, but it looks a little narrow, or maybe just wide enough. No markings at all on the motor except the leafmotor website name engraved on one side. Axles appear to rotate smoothly.

I need to order Statorade, and I forgot completely about researching the freewheel. I barely ever use 11T, so 13T for the high gear is fine. Anything around 28 or more for the low gear should work. But I want something with decent quality, the DNP one I have now has been failing for a while now.

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ZeroEm   10 MW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 27 2021 9:23am

Was running the numbers looks like a 4T LeafMotor (default) just like Neptronics said. Think my next one will be a 6T in the 60V range. Don't need much over 30mph if any at all.
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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by 99t4 » Nov 27 2021 8:02pm

Promising report so far. :thumb:

36H? 2X pattern? What gauge spokes?

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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 28 2021 1:38pm

99t4 wrote:
Nov 27 2021 8:02pm
Promising report so far. :thumb:

36H? 2X pattern? What gauge spokes?
36H, single cross, 12 gauge. The Mavic rim is a little narrow for a 2.5" tire, but should be OK with the 2.4" I'm currently using. I guess that's what they give you if you specify 2.5". Phase wires are also a little thin.

I'm contemplating re-lacing with a 24" rim, but still researching available tires.
Ordered Statorade, and another Grin torque arm and threw in a washer from the freewheel side and digital switch since I was paying for shipping already. Then ordered a couple of 203mm discs, rear caliper adapter, freewheel, and temp sensor, and a cheap gear puller.

Hopefully by next weekend I'll be popping the side cover off, adding Statorade, replace the temp sensor with one that works with the CA, and possibly running heavier phase wires either up to the hub, on into it if I think I can squeeze them through the axle
Leaf.jpg
Leaf.jpg (410.14 KiB) Viewed 510 times
EDIT: This is the widest 36 hole, 24" rim I could find that are available, and should work with a 3" tire. Looks like my frame has plenty of clearance. I lifted the front by an inch and it doesn't look like a lot of difference for the geometry.

Now I just need to learn how to lace a wheel. Well, choosing the right spokes before that.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265421195068?_ ... %7Ciid%3A1

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ZeroEm   10 MW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 29 2021 5:12pm

Lacing should not be hard for you. Pictures can be wrong. looks like the spoke holes are offset! If you want to be safe, wait until you get the rim then measure it and use Grin spoke calculator.

Learned the first time ordered spokes and they were to short. Not all 24", 26" rims use the same spoke length. Try to get it to end up in the middle to top of the head. But always seem to be a mm or two short. If mm or 2 long can always cut some off. Might not have my spokes as tight as they should be.

My last rim is a 24" have not laced it up yet. was debating on angle the holes a bit on a single cross. Think paired spokes might be worth a try. 24" or not as close as 20" but my 26" rims spoke nipples do not follow the spokes.
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thundercamel   10 kW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by thundercamel » Nov 29 2021 5:19pm

I skip the gear puller and just use Leaf's own method :)
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markz   100 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by markz » Nov 29 2021 5:23pm

Some specifications on rim websites can be wrong, I remember emailing Grin about a rim website I found for a rim with a differing ERD listing, but Grintech actually measures theirs so I trusted them and ordered spokes for Grintechs ERD #.
It could have been the same rim with an outright lie on the rim website or it could have been a different year and the rim website just did not update their info. I would never trust a 2nd hand number like from a cycling website, I'd go to the actual rim website.


ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 29 2021 5:12pm
Lacing should not be hard for you. Pictures can be wrong. looks like the spoke holes are offset! If you want to be safe, wait until you get the rim then measure it and use Grin spoke calculator.

Learned the first time ordered spokes and they were to short. Not all 24", 26" rims use the same spoke length. Try to get it to end up in the middle to top of the head. But always seem to be a mm or two short. If mm or 2 long can always cut some off. Might not have my spokes as tight as they should be.

My last rim is a 24" have not laced it up yet. was debating on angle the holes a bit on a single cross. Think paired spokes might be worth a try. 24" or not as close as 20" but my 26" rims spoke nipples do not follow the spokes.

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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 29 2021 7:25pm

Thanks for the advice and encouragment!
ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 29 2021 5:12pm
My last rim is a 24" have not laced it up yet. was debating on angle the holes a bit on a single cross. Think paired spokes might be worth a try. 24" or not as close as 20" but my 26" rims spoke nipples do not follow the spokes.
Yup, I looked at a few pics of 9C hubs laced with 24" rims, and the spoke/nipples are not ideal, but I guess they work.
thundercamel wrote:
Nov 29 2021 5:19pm
I skip the gear puller and just use Leaf's own method :)
Darn, I remember seeing that video. Oh well, I never regret buying tools, even the ones I barely use. :roll:
markz wrote:
Nov 29 2021 5:23pm
Some specifications on rim websites can be wrong, I remember emailing Grin about a rim website I found for a rim with a differing ERD listing, but Grintech actually measures theirs so I trusted them and ordered spokes for Grintechs ERD #.
Yup, not ordering spokes until I can check the rim itself.

Looks like ordering from Grin, even with the shipping charge, is still cheaper than my LBS, that said $2.50 each for custom lengths with nipples. That's for a plain 14 gauge spoke. Going to do some more searching online, but sure wish I would have thought about it and waited before making my last order. I think Grin comes to $70 delivered, so $1.94. LBS would be $2.75 after tax, so even though I like supporting my local businesses, it's a big difference.

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markz   100 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by markz » Nov 29 2021 7:48pm

Always best to measure the rim yourself.

Chain Reaction has a size down to 182, 184, 186, 188, 192 on up if that meets your requirements.
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/spokes

I've played around trying to find the right ERD of a rim to fit those sizes and playing around with the spoke calc to get those sizes, radial, 1x, 2x, in, out.
It never worked out.


Dont forget about
https://www.danscomp.com/

I couldn't find the guy on Vancouver Island that used to or still does do custom spokes.


I've always paid $60 cdn from local ebike shop that makes custom spokes from brand name company spokes and nipples.
No local bicycle shops were able to help me when I was looking for custom spoke lengths for ebike hub builds.
I don't know how they work, if they only have access to or carry the common sizes.

Another angle to go is to cheap out on very cheap ebay spokes for a first go or first around then spend the big bucks.
Problem is that most of the cheap spokes on ebay come from China, so who knows when it will be delivered to you.
This is only an option if you want to be "cheap" / have some insurance on getting ERD wrong (Spend $15 then $60 but in the end, end up spending $75), to try and have the spokes ready for when the rim comes, then spend for good spokes.
Just another game to play.

Buy the Hozan spoke making tool and buy blank spokes or the spokes on Chain Reaction Cycle or anywhere.
Buy the USA Cycle spoke making tool for a few peso's cheaper.

Buy the entire tool, or just buy the $100 threader itself without its $50-100 holder and make your own holder that I'd assume has to be pretty darn precise.

E-HP wrote:
Nov 29 2021 7:25pm
markz wrote:
Nov 29 2021 5:23pm
Some specifications on rim websites can be wrong, I remember emailing Grin about a rim website I found for a rim with a differing ERD listing, but Grintech actually measures theirs so I trusted them and ordered spokes for Grintechs ERD #.
Yup, not ordering spokes until I can check the rim itself.

Looks like ordering from Grin, even with the shipping charge, is still cheaper than my LBS, that said $2.50 each for custom lengths with nipples. That's for a plain 14 gauge spoke. Going to do some more searching online, but sure wish I would have thought about it and waited before making my last order. I think Grin comes to $70 delivered, so $1.94. LBS would be $2.75 after tax, so even though I like supporting my local businesses, it's a big difference.
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E-HP   1.21 GW

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by E-HP » Nov 29 2021 8:00pm

markz wrote:
Nov 29 2021 7:48pm
Always best to measure the rim yourself.
Well I ordered the rim, so no turning back now. This is turning into a decent winter upgrade. :shock:

EDIT: I found this place, nearby, decent shipping:
https://wheelbuilder.com/

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Re: My econo-e-bike

Post by 99t4 » Nov 30 2021 3:22am

Are you going to need washers for the hub (spoke holes drilled for 12ga) with your new 14ga spokes?

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