Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear
- Thread starter Hillhater
- Start date
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING
10 kW
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2019
- Messages
- 809
minimum said:
You're right, I messed up- what I was thinking of was the volatility, ethanol has a flashpoint around 55 degrees F and that's why they add gas to help it. Those cold temps wash out the cylinders and keep the flamefront from working properly.
Hillhater
100 TW
Roof top solar causing more grid problems
Some of you Aussie members may be aware that some of the Australian states (SA, NT, WA ) have a high concentration of RT Solar installations compared to their grid demand size, and this has caused problems..including system blackouts... already.
Now the National Electrical Marketing authority ..AEMO.. has studied the current issues and produced plans for how to deal with potential future problems.
One of the key issues is how to deal with high RT solar output ..midday..when total grid demand is low.. ( mild spring /summer days ?)..and RT solar is feeding huge amounts of power back into the grid.
Currently they can wind down the grid generators to minimum in order to compensate, but if there is a sudden change in the weather, cloud cover, storm, etc the sudden surge on extra grid demand causes ramp=rates that throw off voltage and frequency limits and can cause complete safety shutdowns. ( it has happened).
So, one of the key proposals to avoid this occurring is to equip all domestic Solar inverters with remote control functionality to not only stop each system feeding power back into the grid, BUT ALSO to shut down the output of the solar panels to their connected domestic users !!...effectively forcing solar owners to use grid supply to increase the overall load on the grid. The idea is that this could be centrally controlled (automatically ?) when needed To avoid the rapid load ramp rates.
But , obviously this means RT owners who may have invested may thousands of $$$s in their system can not only be prevented from using it, but also be forced to buy substitute power from grid suppliers !
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-20/concerns-over-plan-to-switch-off-household-solar-panels/12267162?fbclid=IwAR2RE5nse9cPvRO2CWGTAgvPb55lkaca_xlGHox46Daqxl8wxUQ2bARtvtE
Some of you Aussie members may be aware that some of the Australian states (SA, NT, WA ) have a high concentration of RT Solar installations compared to their grid demand size, and this has caused problems..including system blackouts... already.
Now the National Electrical Marketing authority ..AEMO.. has studied the current issues and produced plans for how to deal with potential future problems.
One of the key issues is how to deal with high RT solar output ..midday..when total grid demand is low.. ( mild spring /summer days ?)..and RT solar is feeding huge amounts of power back into the grid.
Currently they can wind down the grid generators to minimum in order to compensate, but if there is a sudden change in the weather, cloud cover, storm, etc the sudden surge on extra grid demand causes ramp=rates that throw off voltage and frequency limits and can cause complete safety shutdowns. ( it has happened).
So, one of the key proposals to avoid this occurring is to equip all domestic Solar inverters with remote control functionality to not only stop each system feeding power back into the grid, BUT ALSO to shut down the output of the solar panels to their connected domestic users !!...effectively forcing solar owners to use grid supply to increase the overall load on the grid. The idea is that this could be centrally controlled (automatically ?) when needed To avoid the rapid load ramp rates.
But , obviously this means RT owners who may have invested may thousands of $$$s in their system can not only be prevented from using it, but also be forced to buy substitute power from grid suppliers !
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-20/concerns-over-plan-to-switch-off-household-solar-panels/12267162?fbclid=IwAR2RE5nse9cPvRO2CWGTAgvPb55lkaca_xlGHox46Daqxl8wxUQ2bARtvtE
Hillhater
100 TW
Utility scale battery costs.
Recently It has been reported that the “Worlds Biggest Battery” , ..the Hornsdale Power Reserve facility in South australia, is beig increased in capacity to 195 MWh, with the addition of another 64.5MWh of Tesla Powerpacks, at a cost of Au$71.0 million.( US$ 47.0 m).
That implies a per kWh cost of US$ 715.0
Some way off the much promoted <$100/kWh we keep hearing !
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-adds-new-capacity-and-services-on-march-to-100pct-renewables-grid-55121/
Recently It has been reported that the “Worlds Biggest Battery” , ..the Hornsdale Power Reserve facility in South australia, is beig increased in capacity to 195 MWh, with the addition of another 64.5MWh of Tesla Powerpacks, at a cost of Au$71.0 million.( US$ 47.0 m).
That implies a per kWh cost of US$ 715.0
Some way off the much promoted <$100/kWh we keep hearing !
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-adds-new-capacity-and-services-on-march-to-100pct-renewables-grid-55121/
jonescg
100 MW
Encouraging people to run their hot water systems and charge electric cars in the middle of the day is a far better way to manage it. Shutting off solar is one of many tools in the AEMO bag, and it probably won't get used a lot.
Hillhater
100 TW
Nope ! ..you are missing the key point... which is not just to reduce solar feedback into the grid, .(which they can already control).... or to divert RT solar generation to use behind the meter,..but to increase the load on the grid by forcing Solar owners to consume grid supply instead.jonescg said:
Anyway, I doubt there will still be many with electric water heaters soon, since the increased power prices have long since made them uneconomical, and those that remain will either be the instantaneous type , or in use with RT Solar owners..so the gains to be had there are not likely to be significant
Charging EVS during the day is logical for some, but the few thousand EVs is minor compared to the 2+ million RT solar systems in use .
TheBeastie
1 MW
Frankly I see home solar being injected into the grid and general taxpayer being forced to buy it whether they want it or not is as Communist-Stalinist as it gets.Hillhater said:
The first few lines of this Wikipedia page reads beautifully in terms of forcing other people to buy their power when no one else wants it.
Stalinist policies and ideas that were developed in the Soviet Union included rapid industrialization, the theory of socialism in one country, a totalitarian state, collectivization of agriculture, a cult of personality and subordination of the interests of foreign communist parties to those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism
Here is the meme.
https://twitter.com/abc730/status/1263243103412125698?s=20
Michael Moore's doco PlanetoftheHumans was taken down by an act of censorship by YouTube IMO, even the owner of the tiny 4seconds of footage admits that!
It had over 8million views, it was steadily/consistently climbing, I had been watching the view count numbers.
Trump and other leaders has to make censorship equal in seriousness as treason, as it's directly against the public's interest. If I was in charge of the world, I would make there mere act of "conspiracy to censor" as equivalent as treason with life in jail if serious enough. Anyone who met up to talk with some one else with the idea of blocking information would be a conversation equivalent of talking with some one else to overthrow the democratically elected government.
Planet of the Humans: Michael Moore and Jeff Gibbs criticise ‘blatant act of censorship’ after controversial documentary removed from YouTube
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/planet-of-the-humans-michael-moore-youtube-removed-censorship-climate-change-a9532221.html
sendler2112
100 kW
It actually sounds like they have done the opposite. They have prevented the home owner the option of using their own power before the meter and forced them to buy from the grid even though they have enough of their own electricity.
The solution to your rant is real time two way smart meters which pay the home owner for their over production only according to the wholesale market price at that time frame. Which might occasionally go negative.
The solution to your rant is real time two way smart meters which pay the home owner for their over production only according to the wholesale market price at that time frame. Which might occasionally go negative.
Hillhater
100 TW
To a certain extent that is already happening. BUT....
there are limits to how much that can happen.since the RT solar cannot (generally) penetrate beyond the local LV (240/260 v ) area network. So the most it can do is reduce demand in that network.
Also there is the fundamental need to maintain sufficient “dispatchable” ( backup) thermal generation ready for unfavorable weather..... no sun + no wind !
It simply is not viable to have sufficient storage available to replace backup generation for utility scale systems
Hillhater
100 TW
The grid authorities have not implimented these proposals yet, but they want to do it ASAP. However,to do so , every solar system inverter would need to be upgraded for “smart” functionality.sendler2112 said:
But Those variable rate smart meters are already in service in some locations, ..but the grid management are looking for more than a financial solution, they NEED to access the LOAD that the peak solar is supplying, in order to maintain grid generation above critical low limits.
JackFlorey
100 kW
Yes. Generating your own power is exactly like Stalinism.TheBeastie said:
I'm actually disappointed that you didn't jump straight to "it's worse than the Holocaust."
OK then. I demand you place the message "go solar NOW" in your .sig.
Dauntless
100 TW
Well, we need you Australians to win that battle, setting a good example for the American politicians who push buzzwords such as 'Green New Deal.' Now that Stalin is involved, next you'll have Lenin ordering executions so you can see and feel what happens if you use your own electricity.
JackFlorey
100 kW
99.9% of the grid tie installs in the world are single meter bidirectional. No need to shut down anyone's solar power system - all you need to do is switch to net-zero operation for a few hours, which means you can't generate more than you use. And if that still bothers people, you can get small batteries now (to absorb excess energy during that time) for $400/kwhr.sendler2112 said:
sendler2112
100 kW
JackFlorey said:
The "meter runs backwards" situation that many utilities are saddled with are unfair to them in a market system and it is no surprise that they must inevitably push back to something more fair like smart meter real time wholesale pricing. To avoid the utilities taking advantage of the excuse and going back way too far as we saw in Nevada and what it being discussed here relating to Australia.
JackFlorey
100 kW
That's what we have. You can get to zero consumption, in which case you still pay a monthly fee. If you go below zero you get "avoided cost" - a few cents per kwhr.sendler2112 said:
Hillhater
100 TW
Again. ..you are not getting the key point.. which Sendler noted and i repeat from before..JackFlorey said:
..IE; Grid Authorities would have control over RT solar panels at the INVERTER, and could force solar owners to use grid supply in preference to their own RT solar
JackFlorey
100 kW
I agree that they would like that. They would also like to increase prices by a factor of 10x, since they have a captive market. Regulation prevents that since it's bad for society.Hillhater said:
IMO they have a right to deny you power when they can't produce it, and they have a right to say you can't export power if they can't accept it. They do not have a right to shut off your system that is providing for your own needs and no one else's.
Hillhater
100 TW
But, should they have a right to take necessary steps to prevent major public grid blackouts being caused by RT solar use ?.
jonescg
100 MW
HH - you should take a look at what WA is doing. The South-west interconnected system, or SWIS, is our electricity grid. It's the world's largest island grid and it has a fair bit of solar on it, along with some fairly productive wind farms. Gas provides the bulk of our energy, but it's rooftop solar that's making the biggest inroads. Some suburbs are seeing big changes in voltage due to rooftop solar, so there's a dedicated industry and government taskforce working on the plan out.
Because our market operator, transmission and distribution network and retailers are all government owned, they can make decisions to rectify problems without stepping on commercial toes. So we have the DER (Distributed Energy Resources) review, as well as the WOS (Whole of System) review where measures are being taken to reduce our reliance on coal and gas, and replace the difference with wind, solar, batteries and demand response via virtual power plants, neighbourhood battery packs and smart metering.
So the problem is being dealt with but we still miss out on the breadlines and gulags
Because our market operator, transmission and distribution network and retailers are all government owned, they can make decisions to rectify problems without stepping on commercial toes. So we have the DER (Distributed Energy Resources) review, as well as the WOS (Whole of System) review where measures are being taken to reduce our reliance on coal and gas, and replace the difference with wind, solar, batteries and demand response via virtual power plants, neighbourhood battery packs and smart metering.
So the problem is being dealt with but we still miss out on the breadlines and gulags
Hillhater
100 TW
Chris,
Yes, i have followed what is happening and most of what is being considered in WA, ..as i believe have the AEMO.
I understand there are already restriction on new domestic solar installs ?
The fundamental issue with solar is that it all peaks at once, and then a sudden cloud/weather front will eliminate it totally, causing huge power reversals and surges in local, and often wider , grid areas.
If you read through the AEMO “Energy Integration Study” they have chewed over multiple case studies, potential future scenario’s and proposed actions.
This remote control of domestic Inverters is just one line of action, and i only brought it up because most commentators and journalists are playing down the significance of Energy Authorities potentially controlling how/when a domestic solar system is used.
I can see the reasoning behind the idea, but i do not like the concept !
Yes, i have followed what is happening and most of what is being considered in WA, ..as i believe have the AEMO.
I understand there are already restriction on new domestic solar installs ?
The fundamental issue with solar is that it all peaks at once, and then a sudden cloud/weather front will eliminate it totally, causing huge power reversals and surges in local, and often wider , grid areas.
If you read through the AEMO “Energy Integration Study” they have chewed over multiple case studies, potential future scenario’s and proposed actions.
This remote control of domestic Inverters is just one line of action, and i only brought it up because most commentators and journalists are playing down the significance of Energy Authorities potentially controlling how/when a domestic solar system is used.
I can see the reasoning behind the idea, but i do not like the concept !
TheBeastie
1 MW
So here are some facts on the US federal energy subsidies 2010-2019 electricity generation the main energy production, data from the boring honest (and thus evil to the pro-renewables mob) publicly funded EIA https://www.eia.gov/
US federal energy subsidies 2010-2019 electricity generation.
#Wind $36.78 billion & generated 300TWh of electricity
#solar $34.4 billion, generated 107TWh
#nuclear $14.41 billion, generated 809TWh
#coal $10.36 billion, generated 966TWh
#oil&gas $5.05 billion, generated 1600TWh
And lets be clear, the Wind and Solar projects will be lucky to last much longer than 10 years.
We have achieved a major milestone on schedule with the completion of the 49,000-tonne base for the Hinkley Point C’s second reactor - meeting a target date set more than four years ago.
https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/second-reactor-based-completed-at-hinkley-point-c-with-video?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Hinkley Point C reaches a new milestone as the base of its second reactor is finshed
[youtube]Y2PkTa7Ofqg[/youtube]
US federal energy subsidies 2010-2019 electricity generation.
#Wind $36.78 billion & generated 300TWh of electricity
#solar $34.4 billion, generated 107TWh
#nuclear $14.41 billion, generated 809TWh
#coal $10.36 billion, generated 966TWh
#oil&gas $5.05 billion, generated 1600TWh
And lets be clear, the Wind and Solar projects will be lucky to last much longer than 10 years.
We have achieved a major milestone on schedule with the completion of the 49,000-tonne base for the Hinkley Point C’s second reactor - meeting a target date set more than four years ago.
https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/second-reactor-based-completed-at-hinkley-point-c-with-video?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Hinkley Point C reaches a new milestone as the base of its second reactor is finshed
[youtube]Y2PkTa7Ofqg[/youtube]
Hillhater
100 TW
Well, i knew there was some healthy subsidies available for RE, but i am surpriized as the scale , !
Be ready for the wave of denials and crys of ...“not a full picture” ..etc etc.
Be ready for the wave of denials and crys of ...“not a full picture” ..etc etc.
Hillhater
100 TW
Tesla’s big power play ?
Some of you will have been following all the chatter regarding Tesla’s various software/technology developments,..
Such as VTH, V1G, V2G, Autobidder, etc etc.
Recently, news emerged that Tesla was quietly applying for an electricity supply (Utility) licence in the United Kingdom.
British paper The Telegraph reported that the US electric vehicle and battery storage giant had applied to the UK energy regulator for the licence, for reasons not made clear on the application form.
The paper did cite a company source, however, who reportedly suggested the move could be about introducing the company’s Autobidder platform – such as is currently being used at the Tesla big battery – aka the Hornsdale Power Reserve in South Australia – to the UK market.
Further , Tesla are known to be furiously developing their V2G ( Vehicle To Grid) technology and equipment which could effectively allow the creation of very large distributed battery capacity using privately owned EV and PowerWall batery capacity, directly connected to the grid and managed by a version of the “Autobidder” software ....controlled by Tesla.
The Tesla M3 is reported to already have this functionality built in !
Remember, every EV battery has a capacity of 60 - 120 KWh , such that for every 1000 EVs connected ( normal charging ) , this “virtual Grid” has a potential capacity of 100+ MWh...equivalent to the Hornsdale Big Battery.
And 10,000 EVs could represent 1.0 GWh of storage
Now , its not likely that this will make a big impact on main stream grid generation, or even peaker use initially, but .. remember how much money the Hornsdale battery makes by supplying FCAS and by “playing the market” of power price variation... well that is where “Autobidder” was developed !
If Tesla can devise a commercial plan for EV and PowerWall owners to reward their cooperation , then this will drive another wedge into the Electricity Market.
The UK could just be a “Pilot” run to refine the technology and software.
There are a lot of videos appearing which give sone detail on the possibile direction this could take, but here are just a sample..
[youtube]pP971PYzQJs[/youtube]
[youtube]tzXU6ozbJ44[/youtube]
https://youtu.be/pP971PYzQJs
https://youtu.be/tzXU6ozbJ44
Some of you will have been following all the chatter regarding Tesla’s various software/technology developments,..
Such as VTH, V1G, V2G, Autobidder, etc etc.
Recently, news emerged that Tesla was quietly applying for an electricity supply (Utility) licence in the United Kingdom.
British paper The Telegraph reported that the US electric vehicle and battery storage giant had applied to the UK energy regulator for the licence, for reasons not made clear on the application form.
The paper did cite a company source, however, who reportedly suggested the move could be about introducing the company’s Autobidder platform – such as is currently being used at the Tesla big battery – aka the Hornsdale Power Reserve in South Australia – to the UK market.
Further , Tesla are known to be furiously developing their V2G ( Vehicle To Grid) technology and equipment which could effectively allow the creation of very large distributed battery capacity using privately owned EV and PowerWall batery capacity, directly connected to the grid and managed by a version of the “Autobidder” software ....controlled by Tesla.
The Tesla M3 is reported to already have this functionality built in !
Remember, every EV battery has a capacity of 60 - 120 KWh , such that for every 1000 EVs connected ( normal charging ) , this “virtual Grid” has a potential capacity of 100+ MWh...equivalent to the Hornsdale Big Battery.
And 10,000 EVs could represent 1.0 GWh of storage
Now , its not likely that this will make a big impact on main stream grid generation, or even peaker use initially, but .. remember how much money the Hornsdale battery makes by supplying FCAS and by “playing the market” of power price variation... well that is where “Autobidder” was developed !
If Tesla can devise a commercial plan for EV and PowerWall owners to reward their cooperation , then this will drive another wedge into the Electricity Market.
The UK could just be a “Pilot” run to refine the technology and software.
There are a lot of videos appearing which give sone detail on the possibile direction this could take, but here are just a sample..
[youtube]pP971PYzQJs[/youtube]
[youtube]tzXU6ozbJ44[/youtube]
https://youtu.be/pP971PYzQJs
https://youtu.be/tzXU6ozbJ44
jonescg
100 MW
Hillhater said:
Nuclear and thermal generators have received subsidy for about 70 years longer than PV and wind, and have many more MW installed as a result. In fairness, RE will need at least another 30 years worth of subsidy to match it
JackFlorey
100 kW
Yep. For a fun (and insidious) oil subsidy google "depletion allowance." This tax break means they can deduct a percentage of the income from the oil they pump because the well is being "depleted." And even more fun - they can deduct more than 100% of the amount of oil in the well! Sort of an infinite deduction. Whatever oil company executive thought that one up is a genius.jonescg said:Nuclear and thermal generators have received subsidy for about 70 years longer than PV and wind, and have many more MW installed as a result. In fairness, RE will need at least another 30 years worth of subsidy to match it
Let's do the same thing for renewables. Let solar companies deduct 28% of the tax on any income that comes from solar generation, because after all you are depleting the sun - that thing's not going to last forever.
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