How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

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Hello all, I'm new to these forums, and while snooping around I have a question that I felt would be an interesting discussion.

What will EV modifying be like? Obviously not many people modify EVs at the moment (I'm not talking about conversions taking an ICE car and turning it electric), as there are very few electric cars that are cheap, powerful, plentiful, and worth modifying. You have cheap in the form of the Leaf, but few people want to modify them for obvious reasons. Teslas are certainly powerful but aren't anywhere near as plentiful and are very expensive. Therefore, the aftermarket sector for electric cars is currently limited to cosmetic/suspension/gearing mods. That being said, in a hypothetical situation where there WAS aftermarket support, how would you go about modifying an electric car? As electric vehicles take over pretty much every market segment - everything from commuter cars, super cars, dirt bikes (Alta Redshift), and high performance side-by-sides (Nikola NZT) - there will eventually be those who wish to modify electric vehicles for better performance, and thus, an aftermarket will form to cater to them. This will probably become commonplace as more used electric vehicles enter the market. In comparison to an ICE vehicle, EVs are very simple. There isn't as much to modify in general. There are certain mods that will be exactly the same as they are today; weight reduction, suspension, wheels, gear ratio changes, etc. But what about the powertrain itself? Here's a few possibilities:

- REFLASHING:

Similar to ECU tuning today, software modification could allow for better performance as many EVs come de-tuned from factory. The Nissan Leaf Nismo is an example of this. The only difference between the standard Leaf and the Nismo is a body kit, wheels, and a software reprogram.

- HIGHER VOLTAGE CABLES

As you begin working with more power, the rest of the drivetrain will need to be up to par. Higher voltage cables could be a "Stage 1" mod in the future, similar to installing new valves/valve springs as you build an engine.

- AFTERMARKET CONTROLLERS/COMPUTERS

The EV equivalent of a standalone ECU (like a MoTeC). These would allow you full control over tuning the car yourself rather than needing to reprogram the stock computer. An example of this today is the EV West Tesla Motor kit which comes with an aftermarket controller that allows for fine-tuning. 057 Technology also has an aftermarket controller for sale and has been used in many projects already.

- RE-WOUND MOTORS

The copper wires in an electric motor can be replaced and rewound to allow for more power, RPMs, efficiency, etc. This is something that is already done on all sorts of industrial motors today. Motor-rewind kits will likely enter the aftermarket and be an intermediate-level mod, similar to aftermarket camshafts.

- BATTERY MODULE SWAPS

People have been using Tesla Motors and hooking them up to Chevy Volt or Kia Soul packs to build some pretty crazy machines (for those who don't know, the Volt/Soul packs have a greater discharge than the standard Tesla packs). Aftermarket companies could possibly sell high performance modules to give your vehicle better performance. You could also wire modules in a series rather than in parallel for much more power at the expense of range, but this assumes that the rest of the drivetrain can sustain the extra voltage.

- MOTOR SWAPS/MORE MOTORS

Completely swapping the stock motor for a more powerful motor is nothing new in ICE vehicles, but an advanced mod pertaining to EVs could be adding more motors. This will likely be difficult and expensive, but so are AWD swaps on traditional vehicles.

What do you guys think? I am by no means an expert, so I want some informed opinions! :thumb:
 
Swapping the inverter of a small EV with an inverter capable of 2x the currents would be a fun mod. Getting the inverter to play nice with the rest of the car would be the challenge. Adding bigger / better cooled / more powerful battery packs will also improve performance with minimal disturbance to the rest of the systems.
 
Tesla sells 1 size battery per model. But they offer different battery capacities at the time of sale. If you buy the higher capacity battery, they turn on access to more watt hours. This came to light during a hurricane in Florida a few years back, when they remotely switched all cars on to the highest capacity during the evacuation. The press saw Tesla as a hero.

But you have a battery you lug around in your car that has more capacity than you may use, because it is hidden behind a pay wall.
So what other options and features are also installed but not enabled?
I see hacking the software as the next big thing.
 
jonescg said:
Swapping the inverter of a small EV with an inverter capable of 2x the currents would be a fun mod. Getting the inverter to play nice with the rest of the car would be the challenge. Adding bigger / better cooled / more powerful battery packs will also improve performance with minimal disturbance to the rest of the systems.
I imagine aftermarket companies could create components on a vehicle-by-vehicle basis, perhaps reusing the same components for multiple vehicles with the only difference being the software so it plays nice with the rest of the car. Sort of like how ICE vehicles of today that are in the same "generation" of model require a year-specific tune (you wouldn't use a 2015 RZR tune on a 2017 RZR for example). I would like to think that after a few years it will be pretty plug and play like it is today with ICE vehicles.
 
In the future companies will have a gigantic edge over consumers with security with long standing chilling effects against reverse engineering. Or is that the present? It will also no longer be considered necessary or desirable to repair or service anything. Therefore enthusiasts will be sort of fuuckked when it comes to modifying your own car. Until we can modify our own intelligence. At that point all models break down.
 
flat tire said:
In the future companies will have a gigantic edge over consumers with security with long standing chilling effects against reverse engineering. Or is that the present? It will also no longer be considered necessary or desirable to repair or service anything. Therefore enthusiasts will be sort of fuuckked when it comes to modifying your own car. Until we can modify our own intelligence. At that point all models break down.
I doubt that. People have always and will always continue to find ways to modify cars for more power. They've been doing it since the 50s, and are still doing it today in the form of the Teslonda, the electric S2000, the Tesla-powered Cobra, or that Tesla-powered Factory 5 car, ALL with no aftermarket support. The aftermarket will make things easier. It's just about finding the methods to do so.
 
One thing that will deter (or even prevent) such hacking is remote connectivity, like that Tesla has with their cars--such as with the ability to change the accessible capacity of the battery pack in your car; you could add more pack but the computer would refuse to use any more than it was already set for...and probably tattle tale on you to the manufacturer, or even shutdown the vehicle "permanently" for "tampering". :(
 
Modification to the current sensing systems of existing electric cars could also produce some power gains - at the expense of battery life, usually. Just depending on how generous the engineers were with the design.

Or... just convert your own electric car, using recycled EV batteries ( they're ungodly cheap ) and the latest and greatest motors ( emrax? ) and you can have a car built to your specifications for 25-50% of the price of buying a new one, no kidding.

I'd rather go the build-it-yourself route because i am just tired of these black boxes in cars that make life difficult down the road. Also, i want something cooler; like an old lightweight Japanese sports car with a 5 speed transmission, and at least 25% more power than the old stock motor. :thumb:
 
What will EV modifying be like?
.....just ask those who spent their formative years modding and racing RC cars/Trucks,.....or Ebikes.
The principles are the same.
There are folk who already bypass Tesla systems.....there will be many more in the future.
What most folk will want is a better, high capacity, low weight , battery........Just as with RC racers.
 
amberwolf said:
One thing that will deter (or even prevent) such hacking is remote connectivity, like that Tesla has with their cars--such as with the ability to change the accessible capacity of the battery pack in your car; you could add more pack but the computer would refuse to use any more than it was already set for...and probably tattle tale on you to the manufacturer, or even shutdown the vehicle "permanently" for "tampering". :(
That would probably only be an issue on new cars. After the car has ended it's "life cycle" so to speak (replaced by a different more modern model), automakers likely wouldn't care what you do. Nissan won't shut down a first gen Leaf because you modded it. They're no longer making money off of it so why do they care? Plus I'm sure people will find ways around such a shut-down, even if it means replacing the computer(s) that is/are responsible. Plus we're just talking about road cars here. In the powersports segment which is already seeing electrification, modding is almost expected by manufacturers of dirt bikes, quads, side-by-sides, etc. That's why many manufacturers actually sell aftermarket accessories for their products already.

To be honest I'm less focused on cars since I'm more of an off-road guy but the point remains the same that there will be ways to get around any bulls**t manufacturers try to pull. There may even be laws eventually that prevent them from doing something like shutting down the car YOU bought, but who knows?
 
SquidBonez said:
- REFLASHING:
- HIGHER VOLTAGE CABLES
- AFTERMARKET CONTROLLERS/COMPUTERS
- RE-WOUND MOTORS
- BATTERY MODULE SWAPS
- MOTOR SWAPS/MORE MOTORS

Reflashing will be most common, since automotive parts are built with a lot of margin, and it will be easy to tap into that margin (with an increase of risk of course.) To go along with that will be spoofs to (for example) reduce current sensor sensitivity so the car "thinks" it's still outputting the old current level.

Motor swaps will be rare, i think, just because it's a lot of work for little gain. May be more popular on woefully underpowered cars. Controller swaps - same thing, unless the security on the original inverter proves to be impossible to overcome.

There may be a market for battery rebuilders who start with an original pack and swap out cells for higher power/lower energy versions. Since there is going to be a market for battery rebuilders anyway, this is an easy add-on. An alternative is the addition of a secondary very high power battery/ultracapacitor to provide faster 0-60 times.
 
billvon said:
Reflashing will be most common, since automotive parts are built with a lot of margin, and it will be easy to tap into that margin (with an increase of risk of course.) To go along with that will be spoofs to (for example) reduce current sensor sensitivity so the car "thinks" it's still outputting the old current level.

Motor swaps will be rare, i think, just because it's a lot of work for little gain. May be more popular on woefully underpowered cars. Controller swaps - same thing, unless the security on the original inverter proves to be impossible to overcome.

There may be a market for battery rebuilders who start with an original pack and swap out cells for higher power/lower energy versions. Since there is going to be a market for battery rebuilders anyway, this is an easy add-on. An alternative is the addition of a secondary very high power battery/ultracapacitor to provide faster 0-60 times.

Hmmm, never considered capacitors. Could be the electric equivalent of a bottle of nitrous! But I do have one question, why would motor swaps have little gain? Outside of something like you said, "woefully underpowered", I would still think that swapping in a better motor or motors would have a huge gain in performance, no? Or could a stock motor simply handle much more power than what the battery normally supplies anyway, making a motor swap redundant?
 
SquidBonez said:
Or could a stock motor simply handle much more power than what the battery normally supplies anyway, making a motor swap redundant?
That.

In terms of performance most motors can handle WAY more than their rating for short periods of time. And that's what most modders want - to get good 0-60 times or 1/4 mile times.

For actual racing, then you might start looking at new motors to handle the higher constant power requirements (both accel and regen) - but I don't think that's what most modders are going for. Racing is a whole 'nother level of effort.
 
billvon said:
For actual racing, then you might start looking at new motors to handle the higher constant power requirements (both accel and regen) - but I don't think that's what most modders are going for. Racing is a whole 'nother level of effort.

Is heat the limiting factor here? Aftermarket cooling systems or (in the case of a bike) going from air to water cooled could solve heat issues for extended races. I read an article where a guy built a Zero bike for Pike's Peak and he did such a conversion because heat was limiting what he could do. Pretty interesting article if you're interested:
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/the-life-electric-next-gen-hot-rodding-video.html

The motor used in these Zero bikes are very robust, so all that needed to be done really was swapping a controller and setting up a radiator, along with software tuning.
 
It'll be reflashes, body modification and suspension tuning.

I highly doubt that motor or controller swaps will be very common. Possibly range boosting additional batteries.
 
Grantmac said:
It'll be reflashes, body modification and suspension tuning.

I highly doubt that motor or controller swaps will be very common. Possibly range boosting additional batteries.
While billvon already made a point about motor swaps being largely redundant, controller swaps are something that is already happening today. The 057 Technology controller or the EV Controls controller are how people are getting Tesla motors to run off of Chevy Volt/Kia Soul battery packs. However, as far as I know it could be possible to still use the factory controller and have it flashed to play nice with other battery packs. I'm no expert.
 
I'm thinking less about EV conversions into ICE vehicles which will also likely involve taking the best/cheapest components regardless of original manufacturer and combining them.

What I'm thinking is reflashing to allow higher power than can be sustained for use in limited duration motorsport such as drag racing or autocross.
OEM manufacturers of vehicles always tune them to prevent anything except gross misuse from causing harm. The aftermarket tuning companies remove that safety buffer.
 
Grantmac said:
I'm thinking less about EV conversions into ICE vehicles which will also likely involve taking the best/cheapest components regardless of original manufacturer and combining them.

What I'm thinking is reflashing to allow higher power than can be sustained for use in limited duration motorsport such as drag racing or autocross.
OEM manufacturers of vehicles always tune them to prevent anything except gross misuse from causing harm. The aftermarket tuning companies remove that safety buffer.
I certainly think reflashes will be very common as they are today in ICE vehicles. And while yes, all of my examples were of converted ICE vehicles into EVs, the principles will remain the same even if you were taking an already electric vehicle and simply modifying it. Someone earlier in this thread pointed to RC cars and how they are modified. Obviously an RC car and a Tesla vary quite a bit in terms of price and complexity but the comparison makes sense.
 
In the leaf people are adding faster onboard chargers Some people are adding active cooling or heating. Everyone uses obd2 to monitor battery status. A few have added extra batteries with limited success.

Maybe the ultimate modification will be battery replacement with oem or 3rd party.
 
monster said:
In the leaf people are adding faster onboard chargers Some people are adding active cooling or heating. Everyone uses obd2 to monitor battery status. A few have added extra batteries with limited success.

Maybe the ultimate modification will be battery replacement with oem or 3rd party.
I could see new aftermarket bolt-in batteries compatible with the car's software or cell/modulate replacements with an aftermarket BMS.
 
An interesting topic.

I think it's hard to make the comparison simply because "performance" in ICE is basically trying to, but failing miserably at getting the same efficiency or hp/weight ratio electrics have had for decades. Electric motors are "tuned". Unless there's some incentive to "under-amp" vehicles I can't see designers leaving those things on the table.

So the three things I can think of that might arise in terms of aftermarket modification are cooling and aerodynamics and weight.

Instead of burning NOS you pump LN2 through some fins around the battery and motor. Maybe even blow it off in an open loop chiller. Now that's a replacement for displacement.

Exotic alloys and carbon fibre panels, body parts etc. all designed to reduce weight and drag. Weight weenies. Efficiency will probably be held in higher regard than it is today. When every car has an "insane mode" 0-60 times won't mean as much.

I think the same may go for top speed. Having a battery on wheels that goes 250mph but needs to be charged every 20 miles doesn't seem all that appealing. This presumes energy density of batteries remains pretty much the same and well below that of gasoline.
 
furcifer said:
Unless there's some incentive to "under-amp" vehicles I can't see designers leaving those things on the table.

Battery range, heat, and durability is the answer. A lot of motors can take way more power than what they're supplied assuming they can be cooled. Plus massive discharges hurts battery life expectancy. Just as ICE cars are tuned for a balance of performance and longevity, so are EVs. And that's why reflashes are so popular with ICE cars, as they can bring more power out of the engine with nothing but software (at the expensive of engine life).
 
If you were willing to accept duty cycle limitations plus lifespan reduction I'm fairly sure most EVs could produce twice the power. At least the ones which aren't already sold as performance cars.

Most EV cells are only charging to 4.05v and limiting discharge in order to hit longevity goals. That is how tesla can add range using a software push in emergency situations.
 
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