3000w hub motor, but no PAS

Hello everyone.

First off i need to tell you that i do not even own an E bike yet, but will in the near future.

I have done a ton of research on rear hub motors, complete systems, batteries, etc. I am NOT very smart in the electrical area, though i do know the very basics. And, very importantly, I am on a budget-

More about me so you know what and why- 53 years old, overweight -6'3", 340 lbs, so i know a smaller motor is gonna do nothing for me. my knees are shot, so riding distance is getting harder by the day. i need to exercise tho so that's why i'm here.

I've looked at 1500w kits, and for the most part they seem powerful enough with the right battery- i am looking at over- volting a 48v system with 60v 20 ah. But then i ran across 3k motors which seems even better, with not much more cost, but one big problem; no PAS. i have contacted 3 different companies (all from China) and asked why- my answer is just a simple NO.

A 1500w system may be the way to go for me, i wont be doing many hills, and i'm not looking to do 50 mph bones at my age snap rather than bend, but i do want the power and torque to get me "there", so 3k is tempting

My question for you then is this; Is there a way to set up a PAS system with a 3k motor, and if so, how?

Thanks for your time, sorry for such a long post, Mike

Grin CA3, cycle analyst, plus sensors

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors.html

Phaserunner supports phase current continuous 45-55A, 65+A with good heatsinking, depends on airflow & ambient temp

Stick to 14S battery packs, nominal 48V

Thanks for your help! But i gotta ask- a 48v battery running a 3k motor? at my weight? Granted, 95% of my riding will be relatively flat, but there are the occasional overpass/bridge, and small hills. I have considered a 1500 - 2k range motor, but still running a higher voltage battery than 48. Mostly for the power and hopefully, range. Again, im not looking to break land speed records, but power and torque in my humble opinion, are important for the weight ill be moving.

While i'm here, i have been looking at Chinese companies for ebike kits, and batteries. If anyone has a company ( or 2, or 3) they consider reliable please let me know!
Thanks again for your time, Mike

i found a listing of where to buy stuff here- sorry to have wasted anyone's time. . .

MikeD said:

i gotta ask- a 48v battery running a 3k motor? at my weight? Granted, 95% of my riding will be relatively flat, but there are the occasional overpass/bridge, and small hills. I have considered a 1500 - 2k range motor, but still running a higher voltage battery than 48. Mostly for the power and hopefully, range. Again, im not looking to break land speed records, but power and torque in my humble opinion, are important for the weight ill be moving

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Do not lump torque and top speed together, very different factors.

Higher voltage will only give higher top speeds.

Torque response - which is what the weight and hill factors require - is **not** helped at all by increasing voltage.

What you need for that is capacity in Ah, largest you can carry for extending the range as well.

Yes discharge C-rate (current amps) can be important for maintaining speed going up a short steep hill.

But for a slow grind up a **long** steep hill, that weight factor will double/triple the overall power required and burn right through a normal small pack.

So forget voltage, even 36V is plenty for a high torque application like this.

Once again, thank you for the clarification! I do appreciate your time and knowledge. I will bear this in mind when the time comes to purchase my battery, (soon i hope)!!

john61ct said:

Stick to 14S battery packs, nominal 48V

Click to expand...

14s is nominal 52v


13s is nominal 48v

MikeD said:

Thanks for your help! But i gotta ask- a 48v battery running a 3k motor? at my weight?

Click to expand...

Sure; I'm over 190lbs these days, 51yo, and my trike is another 300lbs+. I use a 52v (14s is not 48v) battery for two MXUS 3k motors (separate controllers) for the heavy SB Cruiser cargo trike, under similar conditions to yours. WIth the two motors and 35A controllers, I get accleration in the range of 6 seconds or less to 20MPH (have gotten it faster with higher power controllers).

If you use a 52v system then for 3000w you'd probably need a 60A controller, and a battery that can easily handle that.

You can use a higher voltage battery (20s, 72v is the common next step), but it means generally that you will have to mind your throttle settings so that you don't zip along too fast. Even 52v is more than capable of pushing my trike along quite a bit faster than the 20MPH I ride at; I actually use a 20mph speed limit preset on one switch on the Cycle Analyst v3 so I can just push the throttle (or PAS) to the max and still cruise along at just 20MPH.

Range is watt-hours, not voltage (or amps). A bigger battery gets you more range.

A higher voltage gets you more speed. It *can* get you more torque if your controller and motor are capable of it, but so can more amps from a lower voltage battery.

Either way, the battery is the heart of the system and you don't want to skimp on it. It's going to cost more than the rest of your system combined, for a good one. Quite possibly twice as much depending on the range you need.


A bigger motor will weigh quite a bit more, and have more drag when it's not powered (like if something goes wrong and you have to pedal it), than a smaller motor. So sometimes it can be better to have a smaller motor (1500w), if you only need that 3000w for a few seconds at a time here and there; something liek the Leaf Motor (there's a thread about those, at least one) is probably better than a 3000w motor.

While i'm here, i have been looking at Chinese companies for ebike kits, and batteries. If anyone has a company ( or 2, or 3) they consider reliable please let me know!

Click to expand...

The catch with those is that they're over there and you're over here, so once they have your money they haven't any reason to help you out when you have problems, be those just wiring everything up (as it probably wont' be plug and play), to actual defective stuff, etc. Most don't have a reputation to uphold, as they can always start a new business name to sell under over here. There are some big ones, and some of them care about their rep, and some don't. You've apparently already found threads with lists, but if you have questiosn on them, ask.



Personally, I prefer Grin Tech http://ebikes.ca , for one thing most of their stuff is plug and play with each other, and they have good support most of the time, and innovate actual new technology. They're not cheap, but part of that pays for support, and part of that pays for innovation, and part of it pays for quality control. (three things you probably won't get from the average ebike stuff seller).

The Cycle Analyst v3 they make can add PAS to any system that has a throttle input; you can read about it (and see videos, etc) on the product pages for that on the http://ebikes.ca website. (and a bunch of threads about them here on ES, including many builds that use them, some more complex than others).

YOu can also use it to make presets for different power levels, etc., so that you have a "motor me home" setting, if your knees give out, and a "pedal my exercise" setting that give syou just enough power to help you but not enough to go without you doing the work, etc.



Since you don't give your budget, range needs, speed, etc, it's difficult to give much of a specific recommendation for controller, motor, battery, etc.

But you can go to http://ebikes.ca/simulator , read the whole page, and then play with different systems in the simulator to see what the effects of higher or lower voltage, bigger or smaller motor, etc., are.

Sorry to take so long to reply, home/family stuff. But i want to thank you for your very helpful reply, it shed some more light on the very little that i know about ebikes in general. I will keep in mind maybe going to a 1500w kit- i have one i've been eyeballing for a while.

I have been looking at different companies on Alibaba, and have read the do's and don'ts from different people about such a sight. I have talked to several reps from various companies about batteries and motor kits, and have them narrowed down. If my budget was as high as i wished it were i would deal with a company like Grin, but living on a fixed income nixes that.

So i will carry on,hope i don't get screwed over, and now that i know that there are people out there who can help with my newb questions, that in itself is a HUGE difference! Thanks again for letting me " pick your brain " MikeD

MikeD said:

i found a listing of where to buy stuff here- sorry to have wasted anyone's time. . .

Click to expand...

Such a tease, please link to that listing

amberwolf said:

I use a 52v (14s is not 48v) battery for two MXUS 3k motors (separate controllers) for the heavy SB Cruiser cargo trike, under similar conditions to yours. WIth the two motors and 35A controllers, I get accleration in the range of 6 seconds or less to 20MPH (have gotten it faster with higher power controllers).

If you use a 52v system then for 3000w you'd probably need a 60A controller, and a battery that can easily handle that.

Click to expand...

Thanks again for the correction on 13S vs 14S. I've also seen some vendors call the latter "50V" rather than 52V.

Have you got a canonical build thread identifying your current "SB Cruiser" specific components?

I plan to stay in the 48 - 52V range, as much Ah capacity as practical, if not needed for discharge C-rate, will get better range anyway

low speeds are fine but lots of torque for heavy cargo and hills

thinking I should get an overpowered (slow wound) motor to give flexibility for later, meantime getting better reliability putting less stress on it

that will mean maybe sticking to a lower-amp controller, maybe even get away with Phaserunner for now?

the CAv3 seems an essential add-on now matter what controller

That way when I have more money to experiment with ASI BAC / Kelly / Sabvoton / VESC higher-amp controllers for greater power,

the motor and battery won't need to be upgraded, or at least until I burn them up by pushing too hard with the bigger controller.

Fast-acting de-rating based on good temp sensors hopefully helping prevent that?

Does that seem like an overall sound strategy?

> A bigger motor will weigh quite a bit more, and have more drag when it's not powered (like if something goes wrong and you have to pedal it), than a smaller motor. So sometimes it can be better to have a smaller motor (1500w), if you only need that 3000w for a few seconds at a time here and there; something liek the Leaf Motor (there's a thread about those, at least one) is probably better than a 3000w motor.

That is no longer true with a 500+ pound rig in mountain country is it?

MikeD said:

I have been looking at different companies on Alibaba, and have read the do's and don'ts from different people about such a sight. I have talked to several reps from various companies about batteries and motor kits, and have them narrowed down. If my budget was as high as i wished it were i would deal with a company like Grin, but living on a fixed income nixes that.

Click to expand...

Understandable. I'm only now beginning to earn enough (again) to start buying new stuff instead of repurposing other people's old used stuff (and junk).

So i will carry on,hope i don't get screwed over,

Click to expand...

If you keep posting, and link to the stuff you think you want to buy before you buy it, and keep posting details of exactly what you need it to do, and what you expect out of it, then we can help you verify if it will actually do that. We might not know...but at least you can get an idea of what's good and what's not.

john61ct said:

Have you got a canonical build thread identifying your current "SB Cruiser" specific components?

Click to expand...

LIke teh one in my signature?

Sorry there' no specific listing there about what is on the trike at any given time, but you can work backward from the end and see what's there as it's installed.

> A bigger motor will weigh quite a bit more, and have more drag when it's not powered (like if something goes wrong and you have to pedal it), than a smaller motor. So sometimes it can be better to have a smaller motor (1500w), if you only need that 3000w for a few seconds at a time here and there; something liek the Leaf Motor (there's a thread about those, at least one) is probably better than a 3000w motor.

That is no longer true with a 500+ pound rig in mountain country is it?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

No, for taht you're probably going to need a lot of power--probably more than bicycle or scooter stuff will deal with, more like motorcycle stuff, and you're going to eat battery really really fast, so you'll need a huge one, which will add weight, and need more power, etc etc. At some point, you reach an unusably large mass.

You can look at the http://ebikes.ca/simulator to figure out what you'll need to climb various slopes with various speeds and masses and setups. The trip simulator on the same site may help you figure out more detail on the whole trip sort of thing.

Thanks

For others that don't see sigs by default, https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67833

MikeD said:

Hello everyone.

First off i need to tell you that i do not even own an E bike yet, but will in the near future.

I have done a ton of research on rear hub motors, complete systems, batteries, etc. I am NOT very smart in the electrical area, though i do know the very basics. And, very importantly, I am on a budget-

More about me so you know what and why- 53 years old, overweight -6'3", 340 lbs, so i know a smaller motor is gonna do nothing for me. my knees are shot, so riding distance is getting harder by the day. i need to exercise tho so that's why i'm here.

I've looked at 1500w kits, and for the most part they seem powerful enough with the right battery- i am looking at over- volting a 48v system with 60v 20 ah. But then i ran across 3k motors which seems even better, with not much more cost, but one big problem; no PAS. i have contacted 3 different companies (all from China) and asked why- my answer is just a simple NO.

A 1500w system may be the way to go for me, i wont be doing many hills, and i'm not looking to do 50 mph bones at my age snap rather than bend, but i do want the power and torque to get me "there", so 3k is tempting

My question for you then is this; Is there a way to set up a PAS system with a 3k motor, and if so, how?

Thanks for your time, sorry for such a long post, Mike

Click to expand...

U can use an 48v 1500w motor with an 2000 or 3000w speed conrol, then ur motor is stronger but the speed control has to be also have 48v.
(Sry for my english)

What exactly do you mean by "speed control"?

Something like Grin's CAv3?

Maybe a link would help.