Motor Hall Fault

Drupa

10 mW
Joined
Dec 23, 2020
Messages
25
Hello

I am new to this forum and need your support,
I bought 72v 50Ah electric chinse Quad which orignlly came pre installed with Votol EM -50s & 1000w motor
I decided to upgrade the controller to EM-150 & didnt get the power I was hoping for.
Next step I ordered 2000w Chinse motor that at the begining controller setup didnt provide the power I hoped for which is spinnig the wheels from dead stop until I changed the deafault 'Flux Weakning' value fom 605% to 20%.
At the moment of change with wheels in the air I could applied full throttle to max speed but the RPM dispaly present up down flactuation (which was exist from first set up of this 2000w motor) so i couldnt tell if the RPM was as with the previous motor, However the when set on the ATV on the road the power was so strong & it blast me forward & the fron wheels almost fliped over had I not hit the brake with brutal force.
After that point I allways get 'Motor Hall' fault when reaching high RPM even if the wheels are in the air or on road the motor allways stall& after it stop I cant applied throttle again until it cut.
I checked the hall sensors, all 3 reach 3.29v when face the magnet then drop to 0, I even opened the motor to check for loose wires or soldering but everything was ok.
If I use the Low speed then the motor doesnt stop with the Motor Hall error.

Please advise if you have any Idea what is the problem
I will add pictures of my setup
Thanks
 
I could not find the specs for your controller on the internet, however most e-bike controllers send just under 5v wheel halls. It sounds like they are latching on and off properly. It doesn't sound like a wheel hall to me. It sounds to me more like your controller isn't set up properly or is malfunctioning.
 
Hello
Thanks for your reply.
My controller is the Votol EM-150.
There is a lot information on it in this forum.

Not sure if I mentioned it but once I rolled back to the original motor it worked fine without motor hall fault under the same setting, but the original motor lack the strength of the new 2000w motor

Sent from my MI MAX 3 using Tapatalk

 
Appriciate the reply larsb, I noticed that you are one of the top posts leader.

Regarding the Phase/Hall wires combination - i will try it out But what do you mean 'Correct Phase Angle'? do you mean 60 or 120?because I tried them both possitive & negative with no success
 
I’ve lost the patience to guide people through a full fault finding procedure, sorry. I can recommend you the first steps though.

-If you have full functionality with another motor and your controller then controller is ok.

Next root cause:
motor/controller matching is not good
Or
Motor faulty (does it work as it should combined with first controller?)

Try to find the function logic:
Why ”low” works could be due to the lower speed or the lower field weakening. vary both of these. see what happens. I’d try lowering the flux weakening settings to 1000, 2000, 3000. See what happens.

(This is based on that you see rpm correctly in the diagnostic screen when turning wheel by hand. If not then you have another problem.)

Correct phase angle can be anything. Not just +-60, 120 or whatever. You can try from -180 to +180 in 30 degree steps. Do this carefully, if it sounds weird or stutters then don’t go full throttle. If wrong angle is the root cause it will go better and better as you are closing in on the correct setting, then worse as you have passed it.

I’d also change default mode setting from high to mid or low. This makes more sense, at least if you have a switch connected.
 
Thanks for the reply.
I will try out different angles as you recommended later since I ordered new hall sensors (the same type used in QS138 since i suspect that maybe the respond time or installation of current ones is bad) to replace in the new motor.
Also need to add that as long as i at low speed I can read proper RPM/speed and above ~23kmh the readings start flactuating and the motor hall fault kicks in.
If i manage to pinpoint the root cause I will update the forum
Thanks &
Best Regards
 
Thanks for the reply.
I will try out different angles as you recommended later since I ordered new hall sensors (the same type used in QS138 since i suspect that maybe the respond time or installation of current ones is bad) to replace in the new motor.
Also need to add that as long as i at low speed I can read proper RPM/speed and above ~23kmh the readings start flactuating and the motor hall fault kicks in.
If i manage to pinpoint the root cause I will update the forum
Thanks &
Best Regards
 
Have you checked the positive voltage out of your controller to your halls? Is is around 5v? Or less?

:D :bolt:
 
Yes I did.
Even opened the motor
Its 5v input on the hall PCB & 3.29v output from each sensor once triggered, but the issue start at high speed.
Even when I reduced the Flux Weakening to 1000 it would still happen but after few seconds delay of top speed and in that point I loose all the benefit of reaching high speed since it is slow.
 
Drupa said:
Its 5v input on the hall PCB & 3.29v output from each sensor once triggered,
Is that 3.29v while the halls are connected to the controller? Or are you using a separate test rig with it's own pullup resistors on each hall signal?

If the former, then it sounds like there is either a poor connection at the hall signal-to-controller contacts, or the controller's internal pullups are not connected to a high enough voltage (typically 5v, but sometimes 12v), so the hall signals are not going to a high enough voltage for the signal to remain clean at higher speeds.

Alternately, you could be getting motor phase signal noise in the hall signal wiring; this can sometimes be fixed simply by routing the halls along a different path than the phases, or adding a shield around the hall cable that is grounded at the controller end only.
 
Hi
Those are good points that I will address
The voltage I measured was on the hall PCB while still inside the motor & connected to the controller.
Is the 3.29v considered too low?
Also measured the same voltage when connected the smaller original motor which works fine

Thanks
 
Drupa said:
The voltage I measured was on the hall PCB while still inside the motor & connected to the controller.
Is the 3.29v considered too low?
Also measured the same voltage when connected the smaller original motor which works fine

The voltage, itself, doesn't matter, as long as the controller is able to distinguish a "high" (off) from a "low" (on) signal, at all operational speeds. But the greater the difference between the two, the easier that is for it to do (which is why some controllers use 12v or more for the pullups on the hall signals, while still powering the halls from 5v, since all a motor hall does is ground the pullup signal whenever a magnet passes it).

Does the new motor spin the same speed as the old one? Or is it faster, and the problem only start once it's reached that higher speed?

Is the new motor the same type? Meaning, geared vs non geared, same number of magnets and same number of stator poles, etc.?

Is the controller the same one?

Are all the settings identical?

Is the wiring the same wiring harness? If not, what parts were replaced?

What other differences, of any kind, no matter how minor, are there between the way the entire system was before, when it worked, and now, when it does not?

One of those differences is *why* it is not working.
 
The new motor is faster and with more torque.
It is 5 pair poles as the smaller one.
Both are non geared inrunners connected to differential
The same controller
The same harness
The same setting which were too much fir the smaller motor which start flactuating in high speed but it didn't get the motor hall fault.

Thanks
 
Yes, flactuating at no load.
The 2 motors are unbranded.

The smaller motor (the black one) was originally installed on my ATV, rated at 48v 1000w and matched to Votol EM-50s

I bought the bigger motor (silver) from Aliexpres.
It rated at 72v 2000w, much bigger, heavier & stronger power and I matched it with the Votol EM-150.

P.S- I first bought the controller and used it with the original motor which worked fine only later I added the new stronger motor
 



 

Attachments

  • IMG_20201223_113006.jpg
    IMG_20201223_113006.jpg
    299.9 KB · Views: 2,428
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20201224_084846.jpg
    IMG_20201224_084846.jpg
    257 KB · Views: 2,429
  • IMG_20201224_084817.jpg
    IMG_20201224_084817.jpg
    301.5 KB · Views: 2,429
  • IMG_20201223_113026.jpg
    IMG_20201223_113026.jpg
    309.2 KB · Views: 2,430
Judging by the pic it seems that motor is 8pole / 4 pole pair, you wrote 5 pole pair above? What is controller setting?

Some hall checks:
-How is hall pcb fastened? Can it move at all? (lock it!)
-Are halls aligned equally close to the magnets?(should be)
-You can try to lift hall cable away from coils as much as possible by cutting them loose from the tie wraps and then pushing a spacer behind them, can be fixed in place with glue. Check if there is any improvement.

As amber said, 3V for on state seems low, is it measured in controller circuit?
 
Drupa said:
The same harness
Does this mean you cut the cable at the old motor's phases and hall board inside the motor, and reconnected this to the new motor, so that the harness is the same all the way from the halls and phases in the motor to the controller inside PCB as well?

Or does this mean it is the same harness from the controller inside PCB to the connector that the motor harness plugs into?

I ask because any part of the harness that is different, including the connector or contacts, can be the cause of the problem.


But it is more likely that the speed difference is the cause, if the problem starts where the new motor's speed is higher than the old motor's. Is that the case?
 
larsb said:
Judging by the pic it seems that motor is 8pole / 4 pole pair, you wrote 5 pole pair above? What is controller setting?

**** Good catch I missed the number of poles - I set it up as 5 poles since that was the answer from the seller when i asked the number of poles*****

Some hall checks:
-How is hall pcb fastened? Can it move at all? (lock it!) ***Yes**
-Are halls aligned equally close to the magnets?(should be) ** Yes, in a hole made in the metal for each sensor***
-You can try to lift hall cable away from coils as much as possible by cutting them loose from the tie wraps and then pushing a spacer behind them, can be fixed in place with glue. Check if there is any improvement. *** Will Check ****

As amber said, 3V for on state seems low, is it measured in controller circuit?
*** Yes, I measured the input 5v on the PCB & measured 3.29v on the PCB rom the PCB sensor output, I did it to eliminate the wires as the cause for the voltage drop, so it means that the Hall some how output almost 2v less than what recevied in it Input ***
 
amberwolf said:
Drupa said:
I matched it with the Votol EM-150.
What specifically does this mean, in complete detail?

It Means that OEM setup of the Quad I bought was the black motor & EM-50s controller.
I then Upgraded the controller to EM-150 with the same original motor
I played with the setting to reach best performance & wasnt happy so decided to upgrade the motor.
I have then connected the new motor to the same EM-150 controller, took it to a test drive & felt the motor cut off several times during my one hour drive but since I didnt have my PC connected I didnt know it is Motor Hall Error.
When I was back at home I played with the settings & reached very High Speed but couldnt read RPM since it was jumping all over (Actually it couldnt read RPM once speed was up from day one with the new motor)
Only the next day when tested it again I expirenced the motor hall cutoff each time I applied full throttle & changing Flux Weakening low or high didnt help (I really felt how it got worse, meaning the cut off started at sme cases & moved to constant)
 
amberwolf said:
Drupa said:
The same harness
Does this mean you cut the cable at the old motor's phases and hall board inside the motor, and reconnected this to the new motor, so that the harness is the same all the way from the halls and phases in the motor to the controller inside PCB as well?

Or does this mean it is the same harness from the controller inside PCB to the connector that the motor harness plugs into?

I ask because any part of the harness that is different, including the connector or contacts, can be the cause of the problem.


But it is more likely that the speed difference is the cause, if the problem starts where the new motor's speed is higher than the old motor's. Is that the case?
I didn’t change anything, the picture of the motor inside is the new motor with it original wiring & Hall sensors PCB.
I mentioned before that I ordered new PCB sensors assembly of sensors type that is being used at QS motors which designed especially to work with Votol controllers, it is some kind of desperate move to get it working

I think a key point that I cant understand to get to the rootcause is that from the first day I got & tested the new motor, the readings of the RPM in the display Tab ov Votol SW was unreadable unles the rotor was spinning slow (upto ~2200RPM)
 
Back
Top