Powered velomobile

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heliolatrix

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Joined
Feb 18, 2011
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Puget sound
My husband wants to build a velomobile that will climb our long 10 to 14% grades with me and our two small children and some groceries etc. This could easily reach 500 lbs or more.

Has any one build one like this? What kind of motors will work and is there a brushless hub motor that will do the job? How would they compare?


We also need advice on batteries.
 
Welcome to the forum. I'm not going to get into anything technical, but feel it would be wise to start with a less ambitious project. There are many options for a one person bicycle, diamond frame or recumbent, or a trike, that could handle that hill. The experience gained by building a smaller vehicle will more than pay for itself when and if a family sized velomobile is built.

Also, a three wheel vehicle of this size and power would require motorcycle license, insurance, lighting, and other components to be used on the street.
 
I'm pretty sure this sytem or something like it could be designed to carry that much weight, if not the volume:
http://humanpoweredmessages.com/construct/index.html
I have the same basic motor system on my Xtracycle and can climb 18%-20% grades with 15 amps. Add 5 amps and I can carry my 13 year old on the back. You are almost certainly going to need to drive through the gears for this system.

That said, 500 lbs on what I think of as a Velomobile is a lot. There will be a lot of stress on this system and it will need to be designed for it. Brakes need to be foolproof of course.
 
Two cargo bikes, like Xtracycle, Big Dummy, Ute, etc. might be a good way to go. Split the load!
 
Do you think it's just too heavy? :?:
Rassy said:
Also, a three wheel vehicle of this size and power would require motorcycle license, insurance, lighting, and other components to be used on the street.
Click to expand...

What about using a geared hub motor? or even a series wound motor, like an etek?

We are also looking for big hydrolic brakes, don't know if we can put a motorcycle brake on bicycle wheels.
 
Only way I can see a hub doing this is using 2 hubs to split the work. Maybe 2 Crystalyte 53xx and one big battery. Driving through some gears would be much better.
 
I'd get a quadracycle (or like minded trike) and use that as your build base. You are obviously looking for something you can take kids AND cargo and possibly hubbie.

surrey_quadracycle.jpg

072205a3.jpg

bike_7860.jpg

rickshaw--tricycle--pedicab-607.jpg

arfdom.jpg





Enclosed Trike Project
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=17847




Be very carful of the law where you are at before spending any money though. May sure what you want to build will be legal.
 
heliolatrix said:
Do you think it's just too heavy? :?:
What about using a geared hub motor? or even a series wound motor, like an etek?
We are also looking for big hydrolic brakes, don't know if we can put a motorcycle brake on bicycle wheels.
Click to expand...

Not too heavy, just need to have the right parts. Don't think a geared hub motor will do this. Maybe one in each of two wheels, but even then, that's 250 lbs each, going uphill. Dual Crystalyte 5300 series would probably do it but would draw a lot of power at low speed and make heat. Certainly you can find an Etek that will do it. It is going to suck power, of course. Just have plenty of batteries on board.

Love the video above. Note the dead level terrain though.

I've been working with students building a small electric car and I am amazed at the power that thing has with just 60 Ahr of Lithium Iron Phosphates. The car probably weighs 450 or so with the driver, but it accelerates like crazy. That would be a lot of batteries on a Velo, though. Also, the motor is large,
http://www.evparts.com/products/street-vehicle/motors--dot/24-to-48-volt-street-vehicle-motors/mt2109.htm.
It pulls about 100 amps if the students are easy on it, but will pull over 240 Amps, burst, if you crack the throttle.

This can definintely be done. Just do it safely, with kids on board.
 
heliolatrix said:
My husband wants to build a velomobile that will climb our long 10 to 14% grades with me and our two small children and some groceries etc. This could easily reach 500 lbs or more.

Has any one build one like this? What kind of motors will work and is there a brushless hub motor that will do the job? How would they compare?


We also need advice on batteries.
Click to expand...

Budget? What speed do you want up the hills? On the flats? What range do you need? Do you have a GPS profile of the typical ride? Speed, weight, and grade are everything as far as designing the drive. Range is need to determine battery requirements. eg Assuming a vehicle and rider weight total of 500, 10mph up a 14% grade requires only about 1500 watts at the wheel, but add in 100lbs of groceries at a desired speed of 20mph and just the 10% grade needs 3000 watts and 14% grade 4000W.

A pair of low speed wind direct drive motors is probably what you want for this task, because it gives you regen braking on the way down. If the hills are a daily ride then the regen braking is needed more for the braking aspect without constant brake maintenance, and the energy recovery is just a bonus. If the hills are long, then I'd add a helper motor with low gearing to make sure the hubmotors maintain sufficient rpm through the steepest sections.

John
 
I found this thread that shows all the details of using a mars 0909 motor

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19368

we believe that bmx wheels can be made strong enough for 200lbs each. searchingthe we helps:
http://commutercycling.blogspot.com/2007/10/trike-wheels.html
 
heliolatrix said:
I found this thread that shows all the details of using a mars 0909 motor
we believe that bmx wheels can be made strong enough for 200lbs each. searchingthe we helps:
http://commutercycling.blogspot.com/2007/10/trike-wheels.html
Click to expand...

Hello helioatrix,

Your project is similar to mine, but more ambitious. Mine is mostly for fun, just me, two light kids, and a soccer ball. And I still expect mine to break.

Bmx wheels with 14mm axles are the strongest wheels in the bicycle family. The more spokes and the thicker the merrier. Also wider between hub flanges makes a huge difference, but unless you want to modify the hub by bolting a flange on the outside, and re-spoking with an oddball$$pokesize, you're kind of stuck there. Next step up is scooter and motorcycle wheels, they weigh quite a bit more but old dead motorcycles are available cheap.

Give a lot of thought to brakes. With that much weight, you don't want to run away down a steep hill. I'm using the 20mm hollow axle disc hubs, but the flanges are really too narrow, and the discs really limit suspension design. Most velomobiles use drum brakes because of this. You can use rim brakes on the bmx wheels, like some of www.atomiczombie.com 's designs, but you would want to make sure they are really strong. Maybe just send your husband up with some sandbags on the first few runs up & down hill.

According to wikipedia in Washington you are limited to 3 wheels and 1kw. You're lucky! we are only allowed 500W. I think you would still really want functional pedals instead of being dead weight going up a hill.

John
 
What is the strongest brushless hub motor? And is there a chart that shows how much weight it can drive up how steep of a grade at what speed?

we are thinking of the velomobile with aprox. 500 lbs on 10 % grade.
 
That would be a Clyte. One of the 6304s someone here had special made for Motorcycles. Next inline would be the 5404, then a 5304, then any of the suposive"100w" motors, then the 9C's.

No chart exsists that I am aware of, but you can use the simulator on Ebikes.ca to get some of that information
 
I am a bit confused with the crystalite setup:

Is the new 3540 a 5404 II ? Which means a 5304 with a new 35mm stator?
 
For that weight up that grade, you need to think slower windings too. So 5305 not 5303.

Really, that's through the gears teritorry.
 
What a bunch of Xlyte fanboys. There are plenty of electric motorcycle and big scooter motors that are more powerful. Markcycle's version with the double width stator would be the closest and the only one that might make the top 10.
 
heliolatrix said:
What is the strongest brushless hub motor? And is there a chart that shows how much weight it can drive up how steep of a grade at what speed?

we are thinking of the velomobile with aprox. 500 lbs on 10 % grade.
Click to expand...

How fast are you looking to go? I do 500lbs on steeper grades off road, but I max out at 15mph and monitor temps in the motors and esc. I have a 2wd bike with custom wound motors and a push trailer that do fine with those requirements. The key is to monitor your temps and stop when it gets hot. http://www.eagletreesystems.com/

For motors I have tried pumas,BMC,9c, and MAC. I prefer the perfomance of the geared but the reliability of the direct drive make them hassel free.
 
What is the minimum sped for these hub motors? 3mph is the minimum balancing speed 5 is better.

I think that these hub motors may not be able to drive that slow....?
 
John in CR said:
What a bunch of Xlyte fanboys. There are plenty of electric motorcycle and big scooter motors that are more powerful. Markcycle's version with the double width stator would be the closest and the only one that might make the top 10.
Click to expand...


True. If you gotta have mega torque, scooter hubs FTW. While I was in China, I saw a LOT of electric scooters, some with hubs that make the 530x series look like a toy.
 
heliolatrix said:
What is the minimum sped for these hub motors? 3mph is the minimum balancing speed 5 is better.

I think that these hub motors may not be able to drive that slow....?
Click to expand...

Depends on the winding. A sensored DD will go 0.001mph if you want, or slower. They are less efficent at lower than their peak running speed under load.

A High wind count will run at slower speeds, and handle slower speeds more efficently.
 
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