LA 2013: VW Announces 256 MPG plug-in Diesel Hybrid

MitchJi

MitchJi

10 MW
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
3,246
Location
Marin County California
Hi,

http://gas2.org/2013/11/09/la-2013-volkswagen-announces-256-mpg-diesel-hybrid/
LA 2013: Volkswagen Announces 256 MPG Diesel Hybrid

ders exceeding the company’s XL1 production plans for the slinky exotic car, despite its six-figure price tag. Don’t think that the XL1 is done because VW doesn’t plan on building more XL1s, though. Meet the Volkswagen’s XL1 follow-up act: the 250+ MPG Volkswagen Twin Up! diesel hybrid set to debut later this month at the LA Auto Show.

The Twin Up! uses a modified version of the XL1′s 47 hp, 800 cc diesel engine and electric hybrid drivetrain to return a claimed fuel consumption of more than 256 MPG and CO2 emissions of just 27 g/km on the European cycles (if that g/km measurement didn’t give it away). That’s pretty strong, considering the 900 lb. weight penalty the Twin Up! has over the featherweight XL1.

The new Volkswagen diesel hybrid would, if sold in the US, carry the highest EPA mileage rating of any hybrid car, including Chevy’s plug-in hybrid Volt, which the EPA previously rated at “just” 93 MPG.

The Twin Up! is expected to join the all-electric e-Up! and e-Golf in Volkswagen’s bid to become the world leader in clean cars, and bringing cars like the Twin Up! and e-Golf to the US is a big part of their strategy in the coming years. The only question then will be: will it sell?
vw_e-up.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Hi,

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20131111/CARNEWS/131109829
By: Greg Kable on 11/11/2013

Ahead of a Tokyo motor show debut, VW is showing off the Twin-Up concept. Essentially an advanced version of the company's entry-level Up supermini, the Twin-Up runs a modified version of the plug-in diesel-electric hybrid driveline used in the high-tech XL1 for spectacular claimed combined consumption of 214 mpg on the Euro combined cycle along with a zero-emissions electric range of 31 miles.

The Twin-Up name alludes to the new car's twin drive sources. The new four-seater is among a range of alternative drive models under development at the German car maker, which has been customarily slow to bring both hybrid and electric power versions of its existing models to showrooms.

Hans-Jakob Neusser, head of Volkswagen's R&D operations, described the Twin-Up as an engineering prototype with future production potential. Elements of the futuristically styled XL1's hybrid system are used, although various components have been modified to offset the compact hatchback's added weight.

Tipping the scales 904 pounds above the XL1 at 2,657 pounds, the Twin-Up receives an upgraded electric motor, a larger battery with an additional two modules raising its capacity to 8.6 kWh and a diesel fuel tank boasting an additional 6.1 gallons of capacity for a total of 8.7 gallons.

Volkswagen-Twin-Up-photos.jpg&MaxW=630
Click to expand...
 
:?: If it really can do 200++ mpg, why does it need an 8.7 gal fuel tank ( 1800+miles )
When would a small city hybrid ever need that range ?
It would seem to be more logical to stick to a 2-3 gal tank (500+ miles ) and avoid lugging the extra 50+ lbs of fuel around. ( and give even better mileage ?)
 
Hillhater said:
:?: If it really can do 200++ mpg, why does it need an 8.7 gal fuel tank ( 1800+miles )
When would a small city hybrid ever need that range ?
It would seem to be more logical to stick to a 2-3 gal tank (500+ miles ) and avoid lugging the extra 50+ lbs of fuel around. ( and give even better mileage ?)
Click to expand...

Because people who understand will just leave it mostly empty. The rest have to be pandered to in order to sell cars.
 
I wonder is the mpg rating any way close ?

Decent city car then again why bother with a diesel. They could have a 0.9L turbo petrol. For a much more refined engine. In fact why bother with any ice at all if it's a city car ?

IMO VW would have been much better off making a golf sized car with this kind of efficiency.

Anyone know if it's a 2, 3 or 4 cylinder diesel ? if it's anything under 4 then it will be horribly rough.

I've driven 3 cylinder 1.0L opels and before I realised it was a 3 cylinder I thought there was somthing wrong with it, it was horrible and it was a petrol, I hate to imagine a 3 cylinder diesel !!!
 
Maybe a funny concern, but it stems from me having had a VW diesel van in the past... the engine in my van was a modern TDI, which had very little excess heat left to heat the cab. How good is the heating in the up! going to be ? I never wear a coat in my car, will the new wave of efficient cars have enough heating capacity for when it's -10C outside ?
 
Yes I remember the PD Diesels, great engines but noisy as hell. But it would take around 10 miles to blow hot air.

AFAIk most of the newer VW's have some kind of electric heater, the Audi's have had them for years. I remember my old 2003 A4 had an electric heater and made a huge difference to warm up times, it blew out pretty hot air after less than a mile.

It used to hurt efficiency though.

I still think battery electric cars should have some kind of lpg heater, it would make a good difference to range and be much better for the environment than petrol or especially diesel.
 
o00scorpion00o said:
Decent city car then again why bother with a diesel. They could have a 0.9L turbo petrol. For a much more refined engine. In fact why bother with any ice at all if it's a city car ?!!!
Click to expand...

OR ..better still , why not make it a CNG or at least a LPG engine to keep the emissions even lower.
CNG is replacing diesel for a lot of heavy haulage and buses in some countries .
 
Hillhater said:
o00scorpion00o said:
Decent city car then again why bother with a diesel. They could have a 0.9L turbo petrol. For a much more refined engine. In fact why bother with any ice at all if it's a city car ?!!!
Click to expand...

OR ..better still , why not make it a CNG or at least a LPG engine to keep the emissions even lower.
CNG is replacing diesel for a lot of heavy haulage and buses in some countries .
Click to expand...

You can already convert engines to lpg.

Is there a much of a difference between cng / lpg ?

I think I'd prefer the drive of the Leaf to any ice if I had the choice.

It would certainly help with emissions from normal cars especially diesel however I'm not convinced it would help in relation to electricity for electric cars considering the power stations would be burning fuel at low demand at night anyway ?
 
CNG is cheaper (at least from a tax point of view), but has to stored at very high pressure as it doesn't liquify at Earthly temperatures or pressures.

I assume the 200mpg figure is when supplemented by electric drive via the plug-in chargable battery? So on a long trip I guess this figure will be greatly reduced once the battery is depleted.
 
Nice concept from VM, a leader in diesel engine R&D. Why diesel rathern than petro or natgas? Come on, does that question need to be answered, really? You only get into the business of 200+ mpg vehicles with significant conciousness of the fuel/carbon/climate issue set. Hence, petro-->Canadian tar sands and all that nastiness. natgas-->fracking and all that nastiness. diesel->biodiesel and the possibility of sustainable development, albeit with some considerable effort. Rudolf Diesel was a man ahead of his time, stating that ""in 1900 a small Diesel engine was exhibited by the Otto company which, on the suggestion of the French Government, was run on Arachide oil, and operated so well that very few people were aware of the fact. The motor was built for ordinary oils, and without any modification was run on vegetable oil." Hence, an engine that could run on grown fuels. FYI, same concept behind the Hemp powered, Hemp made thread, where the "fuel" is hemp seed oil. So its VW's commitment to a vision of long-term sustainabiliy and a release of humanity from the continued extraction of "ancient sunlight". I applaud VW and their engineering team.
 
Those numbers are a lie. VW has found a way to cheat the test cycle so that all of the battery power is unaccounted for. We have been discussing the XL1 on Ecomodder.com. It was rated at 256 mpg but really only gets 110 using fuel on a trip. The hybrid Up might break 70 mpgUS on the highway and a little better around town. Which is still pretty impressive. No need to be deceptive about it.
 
Indeed. The mpg figure should be split into battery charged and battery discharged conditions.
 
Punx0r said:
Indeed. The mpg figure should be split into battery charged and battery discharged conditions.
Click to expand...

Why ? ..You can nly compare against "standards".
We all know that if it ran continuously around the city without stopping to recharge it would have crap mileage, and if it only ever ran 20 miles between charges , it would have huge mpg.
so they have just used the accepted combined cycle test method as used by all manufacturers, which is supposed to represent a "typical" usage pattern.
 
A plug in CNG hybrid would be the ultimate solution for energy independence.
But, the CNG tank is bulky not heavy but bulky and probably not a good fit with already energy weak lithium batteries.
 
wineboyrider said:
A plug in CNG hybrid would be the ultimate solution for energy independence.
But, the CNG tank is bulky not heavy but bulky and probably not a good fit with already energy weak lithium batteries.
Click to expand...

Ultimate in my opinion would be a (lightweight) diesel fuel cell / plug in electric. No internal combustion and diesel means taking advantage of legacy systems with an eye towards the future (bio diesels).
 
Hillhater said:
Punx0r said:
Indeed. The mpg figure should be split into battery charged and battery discharged conditions.
Click to expand...

Why ? ..You can nly compare against "standards".
We all know that if it ran continuously around the city without stopping to recharge it would have crap mileage, and if it only ever ran 20 miles between charges , it would have huge mpg.
so they have just used the accepted combined cycle test method as used by all manufacturers, which is supposed to represent a "typical" usage pattern.
Click to expand...


You still can compared against the standard. Just do the standard test cycle once with the battery fully charged, and once with it discharged. That along with an indication of the typical electric-only or electric-supplemented range allows people to make informed decisions. The battery-discharged test will still benefit from electric assistance supplied by regen.

As suggested above, it seems the test cycles weren't intended for plug-in hybrids.

The silliness is demonstrated by taking the situation to the extreme: Run the test in electric-only mode (or program the engine to run once for 5 seconds, whatever it takes to fudge past the rules) and achieve ~infinite MPG.
 
hydrocarbons don't work in a fuel cell.

there are now LNG powered locomotives with a big cryogenic tender to carry the LNG, and there are now several hundred over the road semi tractors running on LNG with a cryogenic tank for storage in the US and canada on some of the main routes.

there is a big push to use LNG on the drilling rigs and a lot of them are now converting to run on the produced natural gas which is liquefied in small scale liquefaction plants established locally in the production region.

lots of local deliver vans and the trash pickup trucks are now using CNG. a lot of the work trucks, the pickups used by the rig hands and on the job at drilling locations are all now CNG.
 
dnmun said:
hydrocarbons don't work in a fuel cell.

there are now LNG powered locomotives with a big cryogenic tender to carry the LNG, and there are now several hundred over the road semi tractors running on LNG with a cryogenic tank for storage in the US and canada on some of the main routes.

there is a big push to use LNG on the drilling rigs and a lot of them are now converting to run on the produced natural gas which is liquefied in small scale liquefaction plants established locally in the production region.

lots of local deliver vans and the trash pickup trucks are now using CNG. a lot of the work trucks, the pickups used by the rig hands and on the job at drilling locations are all now CNG.
Click to expand...


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=next-generation-flex-fuel-cells-ready

Google is already using a Bloom SOFC at one of their campuses:

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2010/02/25/coke-ebay-google-wal-mart-buy-bloom-fuel-cells/

http://www.bloomenergy.com/fuel-cell/solid-oxide/
 
CNG is the best of the hydrocarbons from a minimum carbon for a given amount of HC bond energy to break when you burn it, because it's just an H at ever bond location on a C. In that aspect it's neat if you're fixated on breaking H-C bonds for energy for some reason (I personally like things that are easily reversible for my energy storage).


As Punxor eluded to above, you get whatever fantasy MPG value you want with a plug-in hybrid depending on how the test is run. I know of folks with Volts who only burned a single 10gal tank of fuel for the last 5,000miles they commuted. You could call that a 500mpg car if you wanted to, and it's actually correct in many aspects, perhaps the most correct answer for that car in that application.

When this car is being powered by it's diesel engine, it's not going to be over 100mpg is my guess, however if it's used predominantly in a situation where it's plugged in and driven on it's battery alone, it could be >1,000mpg of course.

It's very tricky to give a spec for vehicle economy/range etc, as usage model is such a large factor.
 
Indeed, a steady- state, pure gasoline MPG would be nice to have in addition to the MPGe number, which I have always asserted to be somewhat misleading. It's funny how the e gets quickly dropped from MPGe...

Not to understate the accomplishment, if the thing can even get 70mpg, that would be pretty freaking fantastic.
 
grindz145 said:
Indeed, a steady- state, pure gasoline MPG would be nice to have in addition to the MPGe number, which I have always asserted to be somewhat misleading. It's funny how the e gets quickly dropped from MPGe...

Not to understate the accomplishment, if the thing can even get 70mpg, that would be pretty freaking fantastic.
Click to expand...
The VW lupo gets something around 55 mpg, but it's not available in the US.
 
grindz145 said:
... if the thing can even get 70mpg, that would be pretty freaking fantastic.
Click to expand...

Why ? ..there are plenty of "normal" diesel cars already being sold that can do much better than that..
Here is a list of a few of them..
http://www.nextgreencar.com/search/all-vehicle-classes/Diesel/mpg/
 
As much as a plug-in hybrid can seem like combining the worst elements of an EV and an ICE, they might be the required stepping stone between pure ICE and pure BEV.

We know a ~40 mile range is sufficient for most peoples' daily driving, but few people are prepared to buy an BEV with such limited range.

A BEV with decent range costs too much as batteries are currently pretty expensive.

Even a decent BEV is still of-putting to many because you can't readily drive 500-1000 miles in a day* in it, like an ICE, regardless of how rarely people actually do so.

A plug-in hybrid solves all of the above and gets people into the habbit of plugging in the car overnight. If they can't for whatever reason, no problem, no worries, just drive on diesel.

The disadvantage being the electric drivetrain having to constantly lug the extra weight of the deisel drivetrain.

* I'd need a bloody good reason to drive that far in a tiny car with a 47HP three-cyclinder, 800cc diesel engine. It sounds absolutely horrid.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
A comprehensive destruction of the fool cell argument
Replies
21
Views
3,195
spinningmagnets
spinningmagnets
MitchJi
first-gen Honda Insight w/VW TDI diesel upgrade gets 80 mpg
Replies
6
Views
1,089
jag
J
MitchJi
VW-Golf Jetta And E-Up! EV's Full Production in 2013
Replies
1
Views
820
northernmike
N
TylerDurden
Electric cars star at Frankfurt auto show (world's biggest)
Replies
1
Views
601
adrian_sm
adrian_sm
Back
Top