Throttle Hall Sensor replacement?

lwik

100 mW
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
46
Hi, 6 months ago I built up a nice touring bike with a 2K watt front motor. The rig is great except I am on my 8th throttle already. I spoke with the company and they have said moisture can kill the throttle. So while camping I tend to put a cover on my bike and hope for the best the next morning incase any fog settles on the bike.

I am tired of carrying lots of replacement throttles which are costing $25 a pop, so that got me thinking... Why can't I carry just a couple throttles and a whole bag of Hall Sensors? Does any one know what Hall Sensor is used, so I can order a bunch? I basically have this standard one in the photo.

I did take my bike back to the shop and they opened up the motor and found a hall sensor in the motor had a loose wire (not hall sensor in the throttle). Don't know if that would keep blowing them out or not. But in March I am starting a cross country bike trip and can't deal with these throttle issues all the time.

Opening up a throttle there seems to be room to perhaps solder in a socket that I can just insert a Hall sensor into and replace if needed. Otherwise I can solder them in the field. The 52v 15Ah battery can provide plenty of power to run my soldering iron at camp to repair them.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
$25 is too much and obviously not very good quality. I buy the cheap $5 thumb throttles and rarely have much trouble with ‘em

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=e+bike+thumb+throttle&_sop=15

The only negative effect of water ingress I've suffered is sometimes an inadvertent throttle signal? The sensor itself is sealed package so I'm at a loss why they keep failing on you?

Time to try a different batch, IMO...
 
"The only negative effect of water ingress I've suffered is sometimes an inadvertent throttle signal?"

Yep, that has happened twice, on 2 throttles. First when I got my set up after a week on tour it was dirty so I washed my bike not knowing of these water issues. The next morning I started riding and about 20 seconds later the bike took off on its own. That was scary! It happened again on our Christmas to New Years bike ride from La to San Diego. 10 minutes from the hotel is started raining and everything was fine that night. The next morning was sunny and we wheeled the bike out started our tour and the throttle died. I let up on the throttle and it took off on its own. So I had 1 spare throttle with me in a zip lock bag, I checked the spare throttle before I left on the trip and it was good. Plugged it in and it was already dead before it rolled 1mm. Checked it with a volt meter I have with me.

I am defiantly going to order some of those cheaper ones, but I also would like to find out what Hall Sensor is used. For example, eBay had a bag of 50 sensors for $29.

Thanks again!
 
I've never replaced just the variable Hall sensor in a throttle. I've only reworked switching type found in some motors.

But, component parameters should be fairly simple to specify. 5V power, 1-4V signal range, seems simple enough.
 
Get a cable-operated throttle, or an old friction shifter or grip shifter (and loosen it up), then run the cable to your bag, where the throttle itself would be mounted inside the bag on a piece of tubing that's secured such that the cable will pull the throttle.

I can't remember who had a thread about doing this, with pics; tried to find it but cant' think fo the right search terms.


Someone had been selling a version of this on the ES Items For Sale New section a while back; you could see if he's still got any.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58801
If not there's this one
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=85117&hilit=throttle


There are a number of threads about various completely-DIY versions of them,
like this
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70238&hilit=cable+throttle
or this
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=84495&hilit=cable+throttle#p1236479
etc.


Regarding which sensor is used in hall type throttles a few threads come up, this one
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47137&hilit=hall+sensor+throttle
has some part numbers as do others here:.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=hall+sensor+throttle&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
 
Thanks Ykick, I will search for 1v-5v. I know with my Volt meter when the throttle is off the meter registers 0 volts. and on full it registers something like 3.8 volts if I remember correctly. I would think 0-4 volts but I am sure that is a standard 1v- 5v and there is something the I am not aware off yet.

Thanks!
 
amberwolf said:
Get a cable-operated throttle, or an old friction shifter or grip shifter (and loosen it up), then run the cable to your bag, where the throttle itself would be mounted inside the bag on a piece of tubing that's secured such that the cable will pull the throttle.

I can't remember who had a thread about doing this, with pics; tried to find it but cant' think fo the right search terms.


Someone had been selling a version of this on the ES Items For Sale New section a while back; you could see if he's still got any.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58801
If not there's this one
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=85117&hilit=throttle


There are a number of threads about various completely-DIY versions of them,
like this
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70238&hilit=cable+throttle
or this
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=84495&hilit=cable+throttle#p1236479
etc.


Regarding which sensor is used in hall type throttles a few threads come up, this one
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=47137&hilit=hall+sensor+throttle
has some part numbers as do others here:.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=hall+sensor+throttle&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Thanks for the links! I googles Hall Sensors radiometric 1v - 5v and found nothing in that range so far. Popular ones are 4.5 to 6 volts. Plus for the throttle replacements I need left handed. I have a Rolhoff grip twist gear changer on the right side. Left throttles are rare.

Here is a shot of my cockpit, throttles on the lower left
 
Use the dead throttle body to pull a shifter or brake cable that runs into your weatherproof bag or box, where it pulls on any old throttle that still works. Takes some DIY...but no more failed halls from water.
 
amberwolf said:
Use the dead throttle body to pull a shifter or brake cable that runs into your weatherproof bag or box, where it pulls on any old throttle that still works. Takes some DIY...but no more failed halls from water.

Thanks Amberwolf! I did a lot or research last night and I am starting to get the hang of Hall Effect Ratiometric Sensors work. Also how the 2 magnets work to regulate the power output. What I don't get is why they go bad so easily? I rode from Portland Oregon to SF along the coast and I never understood why that morning fog build up, or even rain for the most part can penetrate the housing of a throttle and cause it to fail?

I have never had a throttle fail mid day or the end of the day before I finish my ride. They always fail in the morning during the first 1 to 2 seconds of use. If it is water that is causing the sensor to fail, then it must be creating some short? I would think the only way a sensor could go bad is a short or power surge to blow it out? Seems like using a replaceable fuse or circuit breaker in the throttle to protect it would be a good thing.
 
Do you have a power meter or power switch in your throttle? If so, then the water is probably conducting the battery voltage from that into the sensor, and poof.

Disconnecting that and only having 5v, signal, and ground running to the throttle housing would probably fix that.

Make sure there are also no high voltage wires at the controller end of that connection.


If it's not that, then you could use polyurethane of some type (gorilla glue?) to fill up the area around the sensor's legs, and the wire connections, to prevent water from getting in there. (silicone is hygroscopic and sometimes acidic so could cause problems later)
 
I have replaced the hall sensors in my thumb throttles at least once a year. They wear out. I use 49E Linear Hall sensors from ebay.
Also known a SS49E.

They are a bit tricky to replace because they are in a small space, and every time you open the throttle you will wear out the plastic so it will get looser and sometimes just fall apart on you.

Before you open it up, be sure to test the throttle using a 5v battery and a dmm to test the return voltage.

When testing my throttles I usually use a depleted 9v battery that is not over 5v.

You should get around .8v to around 5v depending on the condition of the Hall sensor.

Edit: Also, if you replace the Hall, make sure you put it in properly or you might have a throttle that is WOT without pressing it.

:D
 
amberwolf said:
Do you have a power meter or power switch in your throttle? If so, then the water is probably conducting the battery voltage from that into the sensor, and poof.

Disconnecting that and only having 5v, signal, and ground running to the throttle housing would probably fix that.

Make sure there are also no high voltage wires at the controller end of that connection.


If it's not that, then you could use polyurethane of some type (gorilla glue?) to fill up the area around the sensor's legs, and the wire connections, to prevent water from getting in there. (silicone is hygroscopic and sometimes acidic so could cause problems later)

This sounds like a familiar email conversation that I had with Justin from Grin last week.

..."But on the controller's throttle plug are there 4 pins present? This was the standard from Crysatlyte, and that 4th pin was V+ of the battery pack, so even if your throttle wasn't using it you could still have the pack voltage present there. "...

My throttle has a 4 pin housing, but the throttle itself only has 3 pins. The controller end of the throttle is 4 pin and has 4 wires. I find it hard to believe that water is traveling down the cable, into the frame bag and then into the connector causing this short. But then again, I have been having lots of problems.
 
e-beach said:
I have replaced the hall sensors in my thumb throttles at least once a year. They wear out. I use 49E Linear Hall sensors from ebay.
Also known a SS49E.

They are a bit tricky to replace because they are in a small space, and every time you open the throttle you will wear out the plastic so it will get looser and sometimes just fall apart on you.

Before you open it up, be sure to test the throttle using a 5v battery and a dmm to test the return voltage.

When testing my throttles I usually use a depleted 9v battery that is not over 5v.

You should get around .8v to around 5v depending on the condition of the Hall sensor.

Edit: Also, if you replace the Hall, make sure you put it in properly or you might have a throttle that is WOT without pressing it.

:D

Thanks for the info! I saw the 49E hall sensors. What I got lost with researching last night was the voltage on them. Most that I found said something like 4.5v to 6v. That lead me to believe that it was between those voltages? Some were all the way up to 20V, but I am guessing those are the working voltages. So even if it was 20v the controller works with 5V and the signal is between .8 and 4 volts give or take. So 20V is just a safety margin and would't matter.

Thanks again.
 
Hall sensors should not fail like this.

Water on a hall sensor might briefly interfere with the signal, but won't likely cause the sensor to permanently fail. Coating the bare conductors with something to insulate them (such as lacquer) should stop even that from happening.

There must be something more going on here. If your cable contains battery voltage then water ingress (or an intermittent short) anywhere along that cable could cause a cross conduction that could put battery voltage where it doesn't belong. This could damage the hall sensor, and it might also damage the controller inputs. If battery voltage is in this cable I would suggest disconnecting it inside the controller so it doesn't present this risk, since you apparently aren't using that wire. You might want to replace the throttle cable with a 3 conductor cable with just throttle on it since the existing cable may have damage already that is allowing water in somewhere along its length.
 
In the 10 years I've been using the cheapest Hall sensor throttles I can find I've probably only had one sensor fail. Most failures have been either damage from hitting something, plastic fatigue coming apart, loose magnets, etc.

I'm with Alan that something else may be going on here?
 
Ykick said:
....I'm with Alan that something else may be going on here?

Could be. Moisture across the Hall could cause it to get full return voltage which equals WOT. :shock:

I my case the cheapy throttle I am using now has lasted longer then normal, but at some point it will go out. They always do. :roll:

I agree the easiest idea is to get a few cheap throttles and keep them on the shelf.

@lwik

Changing a hall with a socket is an interesting idea, but the hall could rattle loose and be a problem. Soldering is the best idea, but the throttle degrades a bit every time it is opened. At some point they are just not repairable, for me, about three Hall replacements seems to be the limit. It is not only the replacement that wares out the throttle, it is the normal usage over time as well.

On the 49E Halls, they comply with a 1v - 5v throttle voltage. The return never seems to be 5v, but it is close enough, like 4.8v. There might be better linear Halls out there but if you take apart an old throttle, I bet the Hall is stamped 49 (some kind of 49 indicator).

I always thought a sealed photometer would make a better throttle design, I just haven't gotten around to making one yet for testing.

Edit: Ok, now that I think about it, my last throttle failed when the Hall was either off, or WOT. There was nothing in the middle. I had to go WOT and then when at speed coast for a while and then repeat. It was no longer repairable so I replaced it with the one I have now.

:D
 
e-beach said:
Ykick said:
....I'm with Alan that something else may be going on here?

I always thought a sealed photometer would make a better throttle design, I just haven't gotten around to making one yet for testing.

:D

That was my thought as well, but I have heard things to the contrary that they tend to be less reliable. In the 6 month I have had the motor I had to replace the controller once already since it failed. I did get a call from the ebike shop today, they said the controller was fine but the motor had a hall sensor that came loose. I don't know if a loose sensor would cause the sensor in the throttle to fail. But the fact that they bike has taken off on its own would imply that water has gotten on the sensor causing the scary WOT that I have had a couple of times.

But it just blows me away that when I swap out a bad throttle with a good one, just plugging it in has killed the throttle which to me would imply some kind of a short.

Thats for all the help and information!
 
lwik said:
........ I don't know if a loose sensor would cause the sensor in the throttle to fail. But the fact that they bike has taken off on its own would imply that water has gotten on the sensor causing the scary WOT that I have had a couple of times.

But it just blows me away that when I swap out a bad throttle with a good one, just plugging it in has killed the throttle which to me would imply some kind of a short.

If a latching Hall sensor came loose in the motor, you might get a less responsive motor, maybe a juddering motor. There is no relation to the throttle. If plugging in the throttle kills it, then I would check your controller to see how much voltage is going to the throttle. It should be 5v. Over that it could kill the throttle Hall. If you have an old one around, open it up, grab a magnifying glass and see what is marked on the Hall itself.

:D
 
I killed a throttle with battery voltage. Controller throttle connector had 4 wires, 4th is full batt voltage. When changing connectors I accidentally provided full voltage to the throttle sensor.

Maybe your faulty throttles are seeing excess voltage due to moisture affecting the plug? Just an idea.
 
Rube said:
I killed a throttle with battery voltage. Controller throttle connector had 4 wires, 4th is full batt voltage. When changing connectors I accidentally provided full voltage to the throttle sensor.

Maybe your faulty throttles are seeing excess voltage due to moisture affecting the plug? Just an idea.

Very possible. Looks like I will be upgrading the controller to a sign wave controller. If it comes with 4 wires from the controller I am going to ask them to open up the controller and disconnect the 4th unused wire which is V+, like you guys are saying.

Thanks for the help!
 
e-beach said:
I have replaced the hall sensors in my thumb throttles at least once a year. They wear out.

Halls under normal usage don't wear out. Even in the perhaps not completely normal usage in a throttle, they last for many years. I have some here that must be a decade old or more, already well used by the time they were given to me.... :)

There must be something going on in your system somehow, either something internal (voltage or current issue) or something environmental getting into it.


What is the supply voltage to the throttle? Should be 5v, but perhaps it's higher than it should be, higher than the hall can really handle for too long.

Or perhaps the current drawn from or sunk by the hall is too high for it (wrong resistor in the controller's hall signal line, etc)?


Is there a voltmeter in the throttle (meaning battery voltage running to it)? (see my previous post in this thread about that).
 
lwik said:
My throttle has a 4 pin housing, but the throttle itself only has 3 pins. The controller end of the throttle is 4 pin and has 4 wires. I find it hard to believe that water is traveling down the cable, into the frame bag and then into the connector causing this short. But then again, I have been having lots of problems.
Water can wick into all sorts of places. Surface tension is kind of an amazing phenomenon. When I lived in farm country in Texas as a kid, we had a lot of rain thru the year (rather than the tiny bit we get here in Phoenix); I have seen stranded house (barn) wiring that was exposed to the elements at it's bottom end thru an open junction corrode inside it's insulation all the way up the otherwise-sealed conduit, even though water never got up the actual conduit or wire (other than whatever wicked up the inside of the wire). :(

It can actually be sucked into an otherwise completely sealed motor via the wire harness; see some of Justin's tests (I think the video is in the ebikes.ca blog page archive).
 
lwik said:
I don't know if a loose sensor would cause the sensor in the throttle to fail.
Nope; completely unrelated, other than that they probably both run off the same 5V supply (as do the other two halls in the motor--and if it had killed the throttle it would probably have killed those, and the controller that supplies taht 5v too).


But the fact that they bike has taken off on its own would imply that water has gotten on the sensor causing the scary WOT that I have had a couple of times.
Yes, and water to just the connector would do it too (whether it is shorting 5v or battery voltage to the signal line). This can also kill a controller, if it's the battery voltage.



But it just blows me away that when I swap out a bad throttle with a good one, just plugging it in has killed the throttle which to me would imply some kind of a short.
If there is battery voltage present on the throttle's supply or signal pins because of moisture, it could do that.

I think your best bet is to get into the controller and remove the wire in it that provides battery voltage to the throttle completely. Then you can be absolutely certain that is not the problem, should a throttle fail again later. :)
 
amberwolf said:
e-beach said:
I have replaced the hall sensors in my thumb throttles at least once a year. They wear out.

Halls under normal usage don't wear out. Even in the perhaps not completely normal usage in a throttle, they last for many years. I have some here that must be a decade old or more, already well used by the time they were given to me.... :)

Then you must have got the good Halls. :lol:
I have had plenty ware out. In fact the most expensive throttles seem to go first. I haven't checked in a while but last time I tested the send voltage to my throttle Halls, it was 5v. The return voltage is usually around 4.6 to 4.8v WOT.

amberwolf said:
There must be something going on in your system somehow, either something internal (voltage or current issue) or something environmental getting into it.

Could have been current, but I don't see how. The Halls I have had to replace start to become unresponsive and then eventually only partially work. They never just go out like if they are shorted in a voltage spike. As for environmental, well as you know from living around here the weather is very mild, and I don't ride in the rain.


amberwolf said:
Is there a voltmeter in the throttle (meaning battery voltage running to it)? (see my previous post in this thread about that).

No, I don't run a volt meter anywhere on my bikes anymore. I know my distances and battery packs well enough I don't need one. Less stuff to go wrong as well.

I just think that the cheap Chinese manufacture of Hall sensors leaves inconsistency. Either you get a good one or a bad one. Maybe a bad batch. For all I know the reason that they are so cheap on eBay is because they are the ones that failed quality control.

But to be accurate on my info I will test my system again and update.

Thanks!

:D
 
Screen Shot 2017-01-15 at 12.18.11 PM.pngSo I ordered 4 left handed throttles Friday. should be a couple weeks I would think till I get them. When they arrive I will open them up and see what Hall sensor they use and order a bunch of those. I ordered a slightly different one then the standard. While riding on my bike trip after 40 miles or so I thumb starts to hurt in the spot that I keep it held down. Hoping this new one word better.
 
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