Cargobike project. Very long john from chromo tubing

So after roughly 6700km, its time to try a new hubmotor.
The reason for this is solely that the previous rim is cracking from the spoketension, and the spokes are giving up left and right.
The tape pieces are holding broken spokes from pushing into the tube.

I forgot to take any more pictures, but the swap is done and the bike is rolling again with the 4t mxus v3.
Will have to go through tuning aswell, to reach the best possible efficiency.

I will relace the leafmotor into another rim and have for other porjects or switch back on the cargobike depending on how the mxus performs.

 
Just came across this thread,

I also , like the idea of using the Heim Joints ( Rod Ends ) for the swing arm pivots, I am guessing that they give you some lean on your trike ? Edit : I see now you have two bikes, the long john and the three wheel one. When I wrote this I was near the top of page one and saw the three wheel trike as your avatar.
Well you could redesign the rear end , with a pivot up top of the rear shock to have your long john lean.
Is that something you are interested in ?
I wonder that when you are carrying a heavy load it would feel/handle better with a little lean ?

So , Have you ever thought using Heim Joints to make a leaning trike ?
I have not seen close up pictures of your trike , especially the front end so see the suspension and steering .


Also like the long length, Edit : how long is your three wheel trike ?
the main thing that I do not like about trikes, is that they have a tenancy lean/tip over.
From past research I have found out that making a trike long improves stability by quite allot, especially on Delta Trikes.

Count me in as another person who would like to see a thread on your trike, ... in the E-Bike General Discussion , Section for more exposure .


SkyknightJohn said:
Nice work. I like the use of rod ends for the swing arm pivots. I'll be watching your progress. :D
Click to expand...
 
So the spring is creeping closer here in Sweden, eventhough it still is -6C outside today.
I have some mods planned for the cargobike before the upcoming season. The mods are quite extensive work-time wise and will require grinding paint away, cutting and weld new stuff to the frame. I decided after a lot of back and forth thinking to bite the sour apple and go for the complete mod package while I am at it.
This will include:

1. Replace the 3mm stainless wire steering mechanism with 6mm dyneema line with larger end wheels. The end wheels will be printed and the tension mechanism will be integrated in the front wheel made out of aluminum. (already printed) The rear wheel will be printed in ABS plastic I think.
This job also includes a full rebuild of the guide points for the line. Better bearings and rollers suitable for the dyneema line.
(This mod will result in a lower friction steering mechanism with less tension needed for good feel)
The main reason for this mod is that the stainless wire is suffering from fatigue and will brake sooner or later. (not very good)
The dyneema line is far stronger, more bend flexible, UV protected and overall a better solution I hope. It is commonly used for sail rigs and winches.
It is more sensitive to mechanical wear, so the installation need to be well made.

2. Replacing the front fork to a marzocchi 55 slope (ordered) with tapered steerer and 20mm through axle for a more heavy duty and stiff installation.
This involves cutting off the current steer tube and make a new one and weld to the frame. This I feel is a pain in the ***, as it will be a lot of grinding and welding, plus it needs to be the correct angles etc.

3. Print a new plastic front cowl to house the larger end wheels and install gps tracker inside it.
(will put my 400x400mm plastic printer to the test.)

4. Redo cabling to the front. For the gps and the half beam Black Star light. (Already bought) (no more blinding people/drivers in the town.)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=84503&p=1247799&hilit=2000+lumen#p1247799

5. Install new brakes. Have Tektro dorado e-brakes already bought on the shelf.

6. Repaint frame :x

7. Ride all summer and be happy!

All in all this is probably a few days work, but nothing compared to building a new cargobike.
 
Cool going hi-tech, with kite-lines, custom rollers, new fork and hi-end lights. Look forward to see the MK II version completed.
Have you worked out the angle for head tube? What is your projected benefits from changing the angle?
 
macribs said:
Cool going hi-tech, with kite-lines, custom rollers, new fork and hi-end lights. Look forward to see the MK II version completed.
Have you worked out the angle for head tube? What is your projected benefits from changing the angle?
Click to expand...

I am thinking I should be able to reduce the trail a bit. This means a slightly more upright fork.
The main reason for the surgery is to use a stiffer 1,5" tapered fork,
but changing the tube angle will reduce the tendency for the wheel tipping over when there is weight on the cargo area.

I have realized that the wobbly wobbly action I experienced in the very start with too little wire tension, was mainly because of the wheel wanting to tip over, rather than lack of trail.
There could arise a harmonic wobbly motion when the elasticity in the system + the wire tension and the bike's speed and some outside factor aligned. (like driving over a thick branch at an angle. (Not a pleasant experience :) )
Lowering the bikes speed would calm it.

With more tension this went away and wasn't a problem any more, but the effectice torque arm (radius of the endwheels) was still too small for my liking. Had to use high wire tension.
Stupid as it sounds, the size was dictated from the diameter of plastic stock I had available to lathe from, at the time.

Initially I did pick a pretty flat head tube angle because I wanted to reduce the bendforces on the stanchions when braking, and be sure I had enough trail to improve stability.
I think I over-did it and the result was less stability. Everything goes hand in hand here so just stiffening up the fork would probably be a major change.
But since I will be at it and grinding paint off the frame anyway, better make it correct and change head tube and fork.
 
It's gonna be exciting to see if your revoked Revolt makes it back on the Long John after you are done with the rewind.
Have you given any thoughts as to what motor you will run this year if the Revoked Revolt is forever banned from the Long John?
 
The revolt is more or less banned from the cargobike. I simply dont need the extra torque. I will fine tune the mxus and see if i can reach the efficiency i had with the leaf. It is slightly worse right now but the difference is quite small. Dont recall numbers. The revolt will find other uses, maybe an offroad fun-bike or paramotor attempt. Regardless the winter quad is first in line after the long john mods. Have been sad to not have my wintertrike this winter. Shouldnt have taken it apart until i had a replacement ...
 
One problem to overcome with a long wheelbase bike in general is the turning radius.
It becomes more and more important to be able to turn the front wheel close to 90 degrees when the bike becomes long.
This bike can more or less turn on the spot, which I have found to be a very good quality of life feature.

This was one of the drivers for pursuing wire-steering in the first place.
When going for larger endwheels as I am preparing now, the steering line will travel a longer distance for a given steering input.
This causes problems with having turnbuckles beside the batterybox under the cargo area as I had before.
They will simply not clear the guide wheels infront of and behind the cargo area.

So the next natural step was to try to remove the turnbuckles and still have a good way of tensioning the wire/line.
I came up with an idea to incorporate the tensioning in the front end wheel. Not tested but it should work I think.

The wheel and the stretch part need to be polished up and tidied up a bit, and the small holes need to be drilled the correct size and threaded to support m8 tensioner screws.
The rear endwheel will be abs or cf reinforces nylon, and house the knit of the dyneema line. So only one split in total, which also will be isolated from most of the forces.


 
Some stuff starting to happen. Aiming to lock myself into the garage this weekend and work as much as I can to get things done.
Really want to get it over and be able to ride the bike.

Guide wheels for the new steering line printed. Bearings are corrosion resistant to avoid such troubles down the line.
Guide%20wheels_zpsmuoava9i.jpg


Starting to cut the front to rebuild with a new steering tube to house the new fork.
cutting1_zpshqw3hlyy.jpg


More cutting, will have to cut even more as the new steer tube will have a more upright angle.
cutting2_zpsxggvcjo3.jpg


Drilling and threading the holes for the tension mechanism at the front endwheel.
drilling%20and%20threading%20endwheel_zpsppui5w0v.jpg


Next up is lathing the new steer tube. Will probably be able to put 20h plus on the bike this weekend.
As my fiancé is away on business for a few days.
 
Wheazel said:
~Aiming to lock myself into the garage this weekend and work as much as I can to get things done.~
Click to expand...

The tensioner-in-the-pulley is a great idea. I hope to copy it if I ever get time to rebuild my trike, eager to hear how it turns out. Thanks for posting.
Good luck on your work-a-thon!
 
Planning to do an update on the bike very soon. I have just been riding.
It has been working wonders. Not as many km's this summer as previous due to shorter commute distance.
Think I am in the 8700km region now.

Unfortunately shitbucket (photobucket) decided that linking pictures was no longer ok unless paying $400 per year.
So all pics are gone from the thread, best solution to fix this?
 
Don't now any quick fix that will solve the pic's issues. But if you use imgur.com you can do bulk upload.
The main problem with all these free image hosts are that they can change their policies any time the like, and as more and more img hosting sites decides their need to up the revenues more sites will follow suit and will make users pay.

If you got a server you could host the images yourself. Either on a local server in your home, or even if you got a webserver online.
That's probably the only way to ensure pic's will be available in the future.

Another way would be to upload each pic to the ES server. However when ES decides to move to newer and better forum software we can not be sure that the new ES forum will be a carbon copy of the this forum, so ie pics can be problems.
 
No, if the pics are on the ES server they'll be moved along with the rest of the database to any future versions of the forum. If they didn't there wouldn't be any point to upgrading, if it destroyed all the information in the pics--ES is almost completely worthless without the pictures. ;)

(the only troulbe there's been with pics in the past was when the original owner didn't bother to maintain his servers or back anythign up so lots of stuff just got corrupted and lost, and so no longer even existed to be moved or upgraded. Some were just trashed so they are still there but damaged)



Wheazel said:
Unfortunately shitbucket (photobucket) decided that linking pictures was no longer ok unless paying $400 per year.
So all pics are gone from the thread, best solution to fix this?
Click to expand...
Same one I've suggested whenever it comes up: attach them directly to the post; they'll be uploaded to the ES server and backed up with the post itself, and they'll also be visible to anyone that can read the post (unlike external pics that might be blocked; there's lots of threads that for me have no pictures because whatever wifi I'm on blocks the site they're hosted on, even though ES isn't ever blocked).

There's more info/details in the Adding Pictures thread, or in a post of mine several hours ago to someone else.
 
Beautiful piece of work. Frontwheel is same size? Most longjohns have a small frontwheel. What is the difference?
 
My tiny screen only showed the very first of you pics, and I was starting to think I got Alzheimer. I was so sure his long john was painted red..... :lol: don't browse ES using a smart phone. Use a proper pc with a proper screen :D

file.php


file.php
 
Wheazel said:
Front wheel is nowadays 24" in a 26" fork. After changing the steer head and adjusting the fork angle.
Rear wheel is still 21" moped size. Have mostly been using the bike, up to something like 11000km now. It just works.

But as with all projects that you do the first time, there are naturally points that can be improved.
Click to expand...


This is an inspirational project and the reliability is the icing on the cake.

Could you write something about the points that you would improve if you were building another one today?

How would someone without a workshop, tools, or frame-building experience work with a local welder to construct one of these frames? Show them this thread maybe? :)
 
Hello Neutro
As with all projects done the first time, there are always ways to improve.
I have to admit that the most recent changes havent been covered very well in the thread. THey are however quite minor in the big picture. There are a bunch of things i would do differently, but some of them would also require more engineering.

1. I would reduce the length without sacrificing much cargobay. THere are a few inefficiencies from changes made. Could probably shave 20cm off the bike as is, and could shave more if a slightly smaller cargospace was acceptable. Depends on use-case.

2. I would go with a DD hubmotor directly, as the tradeoff in noise and reliability and e-brake is a too big sacrifice with other options. The reduced torque is well OK for my use-case. I don't climb mountains (although I have tried with success), and have enough power to compensate.

3. I would make a custom front ditching the fork solution alltogether. As of the last few years the bike has the beefy single crown fork, and while it works well, it becomes noticeble it is the weakest link when loading the bike heavy. I probably never had more than 100kg on the cargobay and that was about as much as In dared put there. A custom front would be lower, much sturdier and It would also allow stiff linkage steering while still have good suspension, which might be a less complicated option. So basically a center hub steering solution. Regardless this is an engineering task that would require cad and manufacturing capabilities.

4. Consider a simulated frame to reduce unnecessary beefyness and save weight on the bike as a whole.

5. Reduce battery size slightly to save weight. Today there are better batteries available I think, and my use-case has changed since I built the bike to be able to charge over night. I dont need the range to go several days without charging.

All in all this project is a very successful one to be a first-try in my opinion. Sadly I currently have some problems with the adappto controller that havent worked this summer and I have had a too busy family situation to be able to priortize the bike.
I hope to get it rolling during the winter, to ride more next year.
 
I'm also interested in the design change ideas, as I still someday want to build my Barkfiet, for which this build was a primary inspiration. So a couple questions below:

Wheazel said:
3. I would make a custom front ditching the fork solution alltogether.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "custom front"?

4. Consider a simulated frame to reduce unnecessary beefyness and save weight on the bike as a whole.
Click to expand...
What does "simulated" frame mean?
 
Just seeing your reply now Wheazel. Thanks for the detail. Looking forward to detailed posts on this build during the coming winter.


Hi Amberwolf, are you planning to weld up a bakfiets frame yourself or will you get a tradesman to do it?
 
neutro said:
Just seeing your reply now Wheazel. Thanks for the detail. Looking forward to detailed posts on this build during the coming winter.


Hi Amberwolf, are you planning to weld up a bakfiets frame yourself or will you get a tradesman to do it?
Click to expand...

Dude, are you interested into taking orders ? Beeing looking for sometimes now for someone motivated to weld a long john frame able to accomodate 20x3-4" tires... Takes care of the suspension issue and should be AWESOME!
 
qwerkus said:
Dude, are you interested into taking orders ? Beeing looking for sometimes now for someone motivated to weld a long john frame able to accomodate 20x3-4" tires... Takes care of the suspension issue and should be AWESOME!
Click to expand...

It's not my build unfortunately. The OP is a bit skilled - take a look at the trike build in his avatar. I've been looking for a welder locally to make a copy of the long john, and for other ebike projects, without success so far.

Phenomenal build, right? The reliability is the icing on the cake.
 
neutro said:
Hi Amberwolf, are you planning to weld up a bakfiets frame yourself or will you get a tradesman to do it?
Click to expand...
If I ever do it, I'd build it myself like I have the rest of my bikes and trikes in the last decade or so. :)


qwerkus said:
Dude, are you interested into taking orders ? Beeing looking for sometimes now for someone motivated to weld a long john frame able to accomodate 20x3-4" tires... Takes care of the suspension issue and should be AWESOME!
Click to expand...
If you mean me, then no.... If you were local to me I'd help you do it yourself, though.

If you mean Wheazel...can't answer that one. ;)
 
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