Cute Q100 lightweight builds slow mtb, fast road

Who has used a higher voltage than 52 volts ( 58 volts hot off the charger ) on the Little Q100 motor and display ?

I already know that when I go up to 16s or even 18s that I will have to lower the amps to 15 / 16 amps max , that is not a problem , I will program the controller or have someone program if for me.
The
Potential Problem is ... Will the/ my Display work with those higher voltages ?

I bought the S-LCD3 Display , on website it says voltage fits for 24 volt or 36 volt or 48 volt . Reference MK00005 ( I am currently using 14s batteries and it reads the voltage when I charge to 58 volts )

But

BMS also lists a S-LCD3 Display that is 72 volt . Reference MK00006 , Is this the same Display ? or the Same Display with some adjustments on the programing to allow reading of voltages up to 72 volts ?

Or in other words , is there something I can do to make my MK00005 Display work up to 20s battery packs ?

You could feed the LCD lower voltage off a 48V converter from the battery. I believe they run off battery power with an internal low voltage converter that does all the logic and powers the screen. The higher voltage BMS model might use a higher rated converter.

It might work if you just put the converter on the red power lead. The LCD should power up and connect the blue lead to the lower 48V voltage. Hopefully that will start the controller. If not, maybe a separate start switch on the red/blue wires would work.

As you probably know, these controllers can run w/o an LCD if we jumper the red to blue wires (battery/start) and also green to yellow (RXD/TXD). So with the above, you still have the controller powered up, and the LCD communicating.

There's no point in over-volting one because they come in three speeds up to 328 rpm. They won't handle enough power to go over 328 rpm, so all you'll get is inefficiency if you try and go faster. That assumes a 26" or bigger wheel.

d8veh,

Well I already have , 2 , of the Q100c motors that are 201 speed ones, so I have to make due with what I have , both financially , $ 60 + just for the Shipping , ( unless someone here in the States starts to sell them )
So I really do need to over volt them. One is in a 27. 5 rim and the other in a 700c rim.

At 14s I am just not getting enough speed.

Do you know what speed the 201 rpm one would be at 16s or 18s ?

With the 201 I can use lower voltages for rides with some climbing and higher voltages for faster ride days.

I have been watching the wattage reading on the S-LCD 3 Display when riding and using full throttle or going up hills, so I Know I can over volt them as long as I adjust the controller down in amps. Right now mostly running at up to around 450 watts , or up to nearly 600 for a second or two .
I will be using Infineon type controller.

The S-LCD3 Display for the different voltages looks exactly the same, so there is some adjustment that I am sure that can be done to enable it to read the higher voltages.

There is someone in Switzerland , I believe that uses a Infineon type controller with the Q100c , he had to swap some wires when connecting the motor to controller.

Anyone else who did that please provide the correct color matches so others can use different controllers on the Q100c as well.

d8veh said:

There's no point in over-volting one because they come in three speeds up to 328 rpm. They won't handle enough power to go over 328 rpm, so all you'll get is inefficiency if you try and go faster. That assumes a 26" or bigger wheel.

Click to expand...

I will be using different controller than what BMS sells, I will be using Infineon type of controller.

Not really following what you are saying here, so I will try to find how to adjust the S-LCD 3 display, on the one I have they list some numbers in the P section of adjustments, for 24 / 36 / 48 volt,
so I am hoping that the 72 volt Display has the same parts inside so that an adjustment is all that is needed.

docw009 said:

You could feed the LCD lower voltage off a 48V converter from the battery. I believe they run off battery power with an internal low voltage converter that does all the logic and powers the screen. The higher voltage BMS model might use a higher rated converter.

It might work if you just put the converter on the red power lead. The LCD should power up and connect the blue lead to the lower 48V voltage. Hopefully that will start the controller. If not, maybe a separate start switch on the red/blue wires would work.

As you probably know, these controllers can run w/o an LCD if we jumper the red to blue wires (battery/start) and also green to yellow (RXD/TXD). So with the above, you still have the controller powered up, and the LCD communicating.

Click to expand...

If you already have the motors, that's different. A 201 rpm one at 36v makes good power at around 12mph, and that then starts to ramp down until you get a max of about 15 mph on the road. it will spin faster than that, but power has more or less gone by that speed. That means that 16S would give 24 mph and 18S 27mph on the road.

One 328 rpm q100 in a 26" wheel doesn't have enough power for it's speed unless you're very light. It just wheezes around trying to gather speed all the time while making itself and your controller hot. Two as 2WD are just about right for that speed, so with only one, you'd have to double the power through it to get any life from it, which I'm sure it can't handle. Considering all this, I wouldn't go over 16S. I think 14S would be more like it unless you were using it in something like a road bike.

I seem to remember from the distant past that they don't work well with Infineon controllers. Maybe Infineon have changed something in that time, but be careful, these motors have always been a bit choosy about which controllers they want to work with.

Another thing. these motors are pretty cheap and it's dead easy to swap the cores, so if you already have your motor built into a wheel, you can save time and money by swapping the cores. I think the ideal, if you want speed would be the 260 rpm Q100H at 48v and 15 amps. You can always sell your 201 rpm motor/s to reduce the cost of the ideal one.

not sure why you are saying the Q100c ( Cassette ) can not handle 18s , I would think if the amps were lowered enough it would work, what amps at 16 s and 18s to keep it working. I only need speed not torque.
I would like to see others experiment with a 201 rpm Q100c in a 700c wheel at 18s.

This is on a road bike with somewhat thin 32 mm wide tires , and I am under 70kg and this conversion is for keeping up with the fit/young/serious riders on their 7.5 - 8.2 Kg , carbon road bikes. So I have the need, the need for Speed .

Do you think that the Q100 does not work with Infineon controllers too well because they are , not, sine wave ?

There are now sine wave controllers available , so perhaps that Is what I will try.

I would consider swapping out the core, However the 260 rpm H model I believe is only screw on freewheel
I have a 10 speed cassette so need the cassette version. So that is not an option.

Really would like to see the Q128c ( Cassette ) go on a weight reduction by at least 3/4 of a Kilo. that would be what many of us could use. That in a 260 rpm at 14-16s is what many of us want on a road bike want performance wise,

Do you have any influence to get that done ?

d8veh said:

If you already have the motors, that's different. A 201 rpm one at 36v makes good power at around 12mph, and that then starts to ramp down until you get a max of about 15 mph on the road. it will spin faster than that, but power has more or less gone by that speed. That means that 16S would give 24 mph and 18S 27mph on the road.

One 328 rpm q100 in a 26" wheel doesn't have enough power for it's speed unless you're very light. It just wheezes around trying to gather speed all the time while making itself and your controller hot. Two as 2WD are just about right for that speed, so with only one, you'd have to double the power through it to get any life from it, which I'm sure it can't handle. Considering all this, I wouldn't go over 16S. I think 14S would be more like it unless you were using it in something like a road bike.

I seem to remember from the distant past that they don't work well with Infineon controllers. Maybe Infineon have changed something in that time, but be careful, these motors have always been a bit choosy about which controllers they want to work with.

Another thing. these motors are pretty cheap and it's dead easy to swap the cores, so if you already have your motor built into a wheel, you can save time and money by swapping the cores. I think the ideal, if you want speed would be the 260 rpm Q100H at 48v and 15 amps. You can always sell your 201 rpm motor/s to reduce the cost of the ideal one.

Click to expand...

The problem with running the motor fast is the efficiency, which affects output power. the faster you go, the lower the efficiency at the bottom end, which could be a disaster on hills, and it would have no power to get you going. I've run a single 328 rpm one. It was pretty well useless until it got to 20 mph, and on any sort of gradient, it was soon down to 10 mph and starting to overheat.

It's not sine-wave controllers that they like. In fact it often takes a lot of playing with parameters to get sine-wave controllers to work with them. My guess is that it's the commutation speed and/or timing because of the large reduction ratio. 201 rpm has a reduction of about 8:1 so at 30 mph, that's equivalent to about 3200 rpm with a DD motor.

As I have stated before.....
going higher than 14S on a Q100 is rather pointless. Very little speed is added, as the windings become saturated.

Here's my KT36/48SVPRD-???? sinewave controller from pswpower. Wheel spins great with no load. Groans when riding with my Q100H motors. Tried P1 at 100 and 205. Q100H 260 rpm on 20" wheels.

I replaced with similar KT models, except being squarewave controller, from conhis. So you think it's the high speed? I'll have to try this controller on another motor.

Since a Q100 c ( cassette ) is not available in 260 rpm version
then
How much speed would be added when going from a 14s battery pack to 16 or 18s pack ?

Windings become Saturated . what does that mean ?

Your experience d8veh with a 328 rpm one is what is making me want to stick with a 201 rpm version, and go higher in volts,
But
From what motomech and you are saying,

What is most needed is for someone in China to make a 260 rpm version of the Q100c ( cassette ) with the following improvments.

Different Laminations
Slightly lighter weight
Slightly higher wattage compatibility
and
Since there are more Carbon Wheels each year, and since they are getting lower in price each year
to make a motor with 28 spoke holes.
There is only 1 Carbon ( 700c ) Rim I had found that has 32 holes. Much easier to find carbon rims in 28 spoke hole .

Have any influence to get what many of us want ? ( club riders are riding at speeds of 22 mph to 28 mph and more, often a constant 26-27 mph , at least where I live )

motomech said:

As I have stated before.....
going higher than 14S on a Q100 is rather pointless. Very little speed is added, as the windings become saturated.

Click to expand...

d8veh said:

The problem with running the motor fast is the efficiency, which affects output power. the faster you go, the lower the efficiency at the bottom end, which could be a disaster on hills, and it would have no power to get you going. I've run a single 328 rpm one. It was pretty well useless until it got to 20 mph, and on any sort of gradient, it was soon down to 10 mph and starting to overheat.

It's not sine-wave controllers that they like. In fact it often takes a lot of playing with parameters to get sine-wave controllers to work with them. My guess is that it's the commutation speed and/or timing because of the large reduction ratio. 201 rpm has a reduction of about 8:1 so at 30 mph, that's equivalent to about 3200 rpm with a DD motor.

Click to expand...

Jumping in here... but d8veh, Motomech and others have much more experience with this than I do.

I've added a Q100CST on my road bike. I used a small 14S 52v (nominally) mini-cube from Luna Cycle. My setup is PAS only and I've been through a variety of controllers to get things just right. In my setup, I peddle and am looking for the Q100 to assist for a faster pace (but I still monitor my heart rate and push to be in the 150 - 160 range, which for me, is a decent range). For my road bike (as discussed earlier in this thread) is a steel framed rivbike with a Q100CST and a smallish battery from Luna Cycles.

I originally used a sine wave controller from greenbikekit.com which was set for 36v (but my battery was 52v and the contr failed as it heated up) and I then switched to something similar from bmsbattery.com, but still with 36v caps. On advice from this forum, I tried a couple of other controllers but had issues getting the other controllers that supported 48v to work with the Q100 reliably. Went back to a larger, 48v bms controller that delivered (sine wave controller in the 25 wattt range) more power than needed but used the LCD display to control the maximum power by limiting it in my PAS setting on the LCD display.

What I've found is that if I use PAS settings of 1, 2, 3, I can stay within the power range of the Q100 and not overpower it. (Basically, 150 watts, 250 watts and 450 watts for settings 1,2,3). The issue I had with the smaller controllers was that the higher voltage would trip the controllers that were set for 36v. The larger controller I finally used would work with 48v but could over power or overheat the motor. But the monitor and PAS setting allowed me to control this. I guess the caps on the smaller controller that were rated for 36v were heat and power sensitive. In the winter, it worked but as soon as spring came, the controller would cut out.

I finally used the more powerful (and physically larger) controller but controlled the settings for power for PAS using the LCD display/monitor to limit the power and watts. In the lower settings on the LCD display settings (PAS 1,2,3) I haven't stressed the motor or created excessive heat with the controller or motor.

And I'm just using it to give me a boost. I average about 125 watts ofadditional power in my rides which boosts my speed to around 21 +/- depending on the wind. I like the sinewave controller as they seem to add power relative to your speed, not absolutely. It basically means that you get (at level 1, an extra !25 - 175 watts of power) regardless of the speed you're traveling. At level 2, it's more like 250 watts +/-. Nice.

Regardless, I'm not using the Q100 to power the bike. I'm pedaling the bike and the Q100 adds a tail-wind.

Details are earlier in this thread or comment and I can list all of the parts that I've used.

Lee

That's right about the different power at different PAS level. It's because KT controllers use current controll for the PAS rather than the speed control on most other controllers. It makes no difference whether you have sine-wave or square wave. The Chinese call them "Torque simulation" controllers.

ScooterMan101 said:

Since a Q100 c ( cassette ) is not available in 260 rpm version
then
How much speed would be added when going from a 14s battery pack to 16 or 18s pack ?

Your experience d8veh with a 328 rpm one is what is making me want to stick with a 201 rpm version, and go higher in volts,


Have any influence to get what many of us want ? ( club riders are riding at speeds of 22 mph to 28 mph and more, often a constant 26-27 mph , at least where I live )

Click to expand...

What speed are you shooting for? 25mph?

For that you need a 328rpm at 36v or 260rpm overvolted from 36 to 48 volts.

Speed is directly proportional to voltage – so you can do the math.

I do club rides at those speeds (no motor, but with pace lines & drafting) and commute to work at those speeds with a motor (no drafting). I just use the 328rpm (@36v) which works well on a fast road bike, but not so well on a mountain bike.

Yeah, the 328 for me works better on a larger 700c than on a smaller wheel 26” mountain bike wheel/tire.

d8veh said:

That's right about the different power at different PAS level. It's because KT controllers use current controll for the PAS rather than the speed control on most other controllers. It makes no difference whether you have sine-wave or square wave. The Chinese call them "Torque simulation" controllers.

Click to expand...

I'm happy with my current setup but the controller is *big*, compared to the battery and my need for power. Are there any rated for 48v that are as small as the S06S out there? I tried another one with a different display but it had trouble with the Q100, basically turned on and off as I pedaled (can't remember the model but I searched for it on eBay based on discussions in this thread...). As was noted earlier, the Q100's can be picky.

Although I find the sine wave controllers to be very quiet, what is the benefit of a square-wave vs. a sine-wave? (I really should know this!)

Lee

back in the day, they were all square wave and PAS levels were mostly a speed setting.

The sine wave ones were developed to be quieter
The Torque sensing ones were developed to regulate current (torque) rather than top speed (in PAS mode).

majornelson said:

d8veh said:

That's right about the different power at different PAS level. It's because KT controllers use current controll for the PAS rather than the speed control on most other controllers. It makes no difference whether you have sine-wave or square wave. The Chinese call them "Torque simulation" controllers.

Click to expand...

I'm happy with my current setup but the controller is *big*, compared to the battery and my need for power. Are there any rated for 48v that are as small as the S06S out there? I tried another one with a different display but it had trouble with the Q100, basically turned on and off as I pedaled (can't remember the model but I searched for it on eBay based on discussions in this thread...). As was noted earlier, the Q100's can be picky.

Although I find the sine wave controllers to be very quiet, what is the benefit of a square-wave vs. a sine-wave? (I really should know this!)

Lee

Click to expand...

Yup. BMSBattery do the 20 amp one that goes in the 09 bottle battery, or you can get one in an alloy box from PSWPower. You can also find them on Aliexpress:

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/pic.asp?ModID=PicS224&TypID=S220052

The Sine-wave controllers are smoother and quieter, but they don't work sensorless, so if you have a sensorless motor, you need the square wave one.

Chas,

Those are some impressive Club Ride Speeds,

You should take a vacation , come out to California , and ride with some of the riders in my area. Depending on what group it is they ride from around 12- 15 mph, and 18-20 mph, and 23-27 mph,
then there is the A group. the A group so fast that I have not yet even found out what speeds they are riding, over 27 mph for them.
Below in another post I will do a write up of what goes on around here. You really should get out here and ride for a week or few days.

For now I have decided that trying to squeeze that last 5-7 mph out of my little 201 rpm Q100 c CST, is just too much of a hassle. I do like to also ride at a leisurely speed of 15-19 mph at times and look at the beautiful scenery. As you know not possible to take in the Views while in a Pace Line at 25mph.
The Q100 H at a 260 rpm sounds better, But , I have a modern Road Bike with 10 speed cassette so that is out.
And the Q128 is too heavy for my liking on a Road Bike. I am already 2 x the weight of the Roadies on their S-Works carbon bikes.
I could get a different controller to use with my 201 Rpm Q100c , but then I would also have to get a Cycle Analyst 2.x , plus a Shunt in order to even try .
I will not go and buy a 328 rpm Q100c because I do often like to ride under 20 mph
So,
I will just ride my Mac motor , heavy , un-aerodynamic mountain bike when I want to go over 20-22 mph.
Until such time that we can be able to buy a better small hub motor for the speeds You and I and many others ride or want to ride their lighter weight Road Bikes at.

What is really needed is ...

A small rear hub motor that is

1) a little lighter than the current Q100c
2) can use the same power as the Q128 c
3) is wound / made to operate within the 15-30 mph speed range
4) has spoke flanges offset so that we can have even / near even spoke tension on each side.
5) be available in spoke counts of 32 holes down to 28 spoke hole flanges so that we can lace up to a Carbon Rim.

chas58 said:

What speed are you shooting for? 25mph?

For that you need a 328rpm at 36v or 260rpm overvolted from 36 to 48 volts.

Speed is directly proportional to voltage – so you can do the math.

I do club rides at those speeds (no motor, but with pace lines & drafting) and commute to work at those speeds with a motor (no drafting). I just use the 328rpm (@36v) which works well on a fast road bike, but not so well on a mountain bike.

Yeah, the 328 for me works better on a larger 700c than on a smaller wheel 26” mountain bike wheel/tire.

Click to expand...

Chas, and all Road Riders,

I live in a Beautiful Area of California that has many good back roads. It is such a great place to ride a Road Bike that on any day there are over 100 riders out on the roads. not all at once and in the same group.
There are groups from just 2 , on up to over 30 at a time depending on which group you see.
They range from weekend riders that ride at speeds of 8-12 mph, all the way up to the Very Serious Riders that ride at around 27 mph and more.
There are many small hills, and very few stop signs.

On the weekends the roads are full mostly in the Mournings,
However
During the Weekdays it is lunch time that sees the most riders. This is where you will see the more serious riders. Often I am out riding alone when all of a sudden, what seems like out of nowhere , a group is right on my tail, then passing me. Not much Pace line riding unless you are in the fast groups, mostly just groups of 2 on up to 30 + , in any given group.
There are Groups from one Company ( Specialized ) , and Smaller groups from other company's not in the Bike Business , and even Retired Person Groups , and then all the individual riders, all out on the road each day totalling 100 or more each and every day.

I do not ride in Groups much at all, when riders do not have a motor they are almost always riding slower than my what my motor likes to operate at , or faster than what my little 201 rpm Q100c cst motor can sustain.
When the fast groups ( A or B group ) , pass me I speed up to see how far I can keep up with them. With the Q100c it is not very far.
With the power of the Mac 6T motor bike I can follow many of them, except the fast riders.

For anyone who loves riding back roads they are Epic here .
You can do a 12 mile circuit , on up to 20 miles, 50 , etc.
A great Place to Vacation and Ride. For any more info If you are serious about having a Holiday here, PM me .

ScooterMan101,

Sounds like bicycle heaven!

I'm convinced that there is a market and need for a relatively light road bike with assist from a light weight motor for many. ( I wish my legs could push what they could 20 years ago!). With a little electric assist, you can push past weaker knees or (literally) minimize the hills or wind to continue to bike and go farther/faster but still get a great workout and/or enjoy the scenery.

The current China motors/controllers/batteries are still a little clumsy and ugly compared to a traditional road bike. And although many DIY eBike enthusiasts can cobble something together, it's not for the faint of heart, inexperienced and, even for us it's sort of ugly, ungainly and with compromises.

Hopefully, we're the early adopters and the industry will figure it out and provide both off the shelf bikes and DIY options that are better than we have today.

For instance: bluetooth control, great battery/controller/motor management (think Faraday), easy to install hubs, some level of quality control from Far East manufactures (I'm 50/50 on laced motor/rim quality. I mean, just get the rim tape right, not to mention the truing and spoke tension!).

I think this thread is great... lot's of inspiration. Thanks for your post.

Lee

majornelson said:

d8veh said:

That's right about the different power at different PAS level. It's because KT controllers use current controll for the PAS rather than the speed control on most other controllers. It makes no difference whether you have sine-wave or square wave. The Chinese call them "Torque simulation" controllers.

Click to expand...

I'm happy with my current setup but the controller is *big*, compared to the battery and my need for power. Are there any rated for 48v that are as small as the S06S out there? I tried another one with a different display but it had trouble with the Q100, basically turned on and off as I pedaled (can't remember the model but I searched for it on eBay based on discussions in this thread...). As was noted earlier, the Q100's can be picky.

Although I find the sine wave controllers to be very quiet, what is the benefit of a square-wave vs. a sine-wave? (I really should know this!)

Lee

Click to expand...

I found some on Aliexpress. This one is the one I'm using at the moment. My Q128C is totally silent with it, and at 48v, 14 amps seems to be plenty of power. We have pretty steep hills where I live. It's from Kunteng, so it works with the S-LCD3, S-LCD5 or any of they're other LCDs

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Regeneration-Electric-Bicycle-Brush-less-Controller-48V-6-MOSFET/1749495210.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.ZDAsaf

d8veh said:

I found some on Aliexpress. This one is the one I'm using at the moment. My Q128C is totally silent with it, and at 48v, 14 amps seems to be plenty of power. We have pretty steep hills where I live. It's from Kunteng, so it works with the S-LCD3, S-LCD5 or any of they're other LCDs

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Regeneration-Electric-Bicycle-Brush-less-Controller-48V-6-MOSFET/1749495210.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.ZDAsaf

Click to expand...

This specific offer is no longer available it seems.

Would you know whether the LCD displays sold by BMSBattery are generally fully compatible with anything built by Kunteng and sold by the likes of pswpower / elifebike, or greenbikekit?

I am currently trying to source a Q128C @ 36V/201rpm with a well-matched controller that is able to also push 48V into the motor. BMSBattery is trying to tell me that the S06S does not suffice, that their S12S is the real thing, but that controller is much too large physically for my taste.

It would seem as if the sine wave version "Kunteng KT 6 MOSFETS Controller (06A)" http://www.szktdz.com/en/news_show.php?article_id=507 could be ideal, but where to source that? And does it work flawlessly for the Q128C, is it cross-compatible with BMSBattery displays?

The KT LCDs are mainly compatible with the different KT controllers, though there can be differences, like the Xiongda has "L" in the display when it changes to low gear (reverse motor). Some LCDs have access to different parameters or settings.

I just wanted to add to this thread and thank everyone on it for all the great info. Based on advise found here (and directly in contradiction to other advice found on ES) I went ahead and converted my 22# (20 speed) aluminum cyclocross bike with a BMS Q100cst 328rpm 36V kit.

My goal was a PAS setup that helped rather than replaced my pedaling. The BMS kit I purchased consisted of:

Q100cst 328rpm 32 hole motor custom built up in the US with a decent DT Swiss disc rim
36V s06 sinewave controller integrated into new bottle case
36V 11.6 Ah panasonic bottle battery
12 position left side hall effect PAS sensor
Q100cst 328 32 hole motor custom built up in the US with a decent DT Swiss disc rim
two chargers (one for the office/one for home)
no brake switch (drop bars and hydraulic brakes)...I have found I don't see a need for the brake kill switch

throttle and controller are placed on an out front carbon bar from Amazon, though I have only used the throttle for testing and setup. I had done a lot of searching for throttle options since the throttles are too small to fit on drop bars and happy with the solution I came up with.

My daily ride consists of a 14 mile commute each way with 10 miles of rail-to-trail bike path. Decent climb/decent at one end depending on direction.

My times pre-electric had me averaging 20 on the flats on my road bike, more like 18 on the cross bike.

Now with the ebike setup I can average 24 at pas level 5, 22 at pas level 4, 20 at pas level 3. Dead silent motor.

I have been turning the PAS down to 1 for the climb, and tend to do the whole climb standing (trying to put a lot more human power rather then ebike into the climb).

I can make it both ways on a single charge at 4-5 PAS.

Glad I went with the 328rpm as the 201 would have been too slow and the 260 would have meant sacrificing the 10 speed rear cassette.

thanks again!

Great info. Can you post a link to the carbon bars from Amazon?