DIY Build - Touring eBike - Journal - Beginner

Heavy tires are for fast and heavy bikes, or wild riding where bicycle tires are suffering daily punctures. Adding unnecessary weight is starting an escalade. More weight here, and you need more weight there, and so on...

Efficiency does rely on light weight, so does performance. Think of your ebike in terms of ‘w/h per km’ if you are into commuting range, or ‘hp per kg’ if you are into sport riding.
 
Chalo said:
SamRich said:
Moped tires are about the same cost as normal tires but will last 5-10X longer.
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And all that time, they'll waste as much juice and range as if you used bicycle tires and dragged a pig heavy moto tire behind you on a rope. Not worth it.
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I understand your point and you've shared it many times :)....There are tradeoffs for sure, but the truth is that bicycle tires were not designed for the torque of ebike and tend to wear prematurely on bikes with more than 1000W of power. Lightweight moped rims and tires are not that much heavier and clearly provide the durability needed for commuting or touring. Since going moped on my summmer commuter, I personally have saved a bunch of time on changing tires and money on new tires. I also have not noticed a significant increase in Wh/mile. At higher speeds most of your energy is wasted fighting wind resistance not weight.
 
For touring , long distance, large load carrying capacity , and comfort that you will want for all that you want to do ...

See if that welder can make you a custom steel/croMoly , very long wheelbase, single pivot in the rear , full suspension cargo/touring bike.

Look at the Yuba Mundo, now take that design and make if full suspension.

You can then even have a large enough rear end to install a " stoke monkey " type of drive. ( look at what Grin Technologies has done to one of their everyday errand running bikes at their shop )

Do it right in the first place ... make it full suspension. single pivot will be good enough.


bengee said:
2. I met a guy on a walk yesterday living in an elaborate shack on the edge of a forest. I was being nosey and we got talking. He happens to weld steel. I agreed to help him with the online side of his business, and he'd help me with my bike. So random, but such brilliantly perfect timing!


Please keep sharing your thoughts! They really help me focus my research :mrgreen:
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ScooterMan101 said:
Do it right in the first place ... make it full suspension. single pivot will be good enough.
Click to expand...

For a touring bike? What are you thinking? Yeah, let's add weight, wear, and complexity, and take away luggage options, and make it not work right when you change the loaded weight. Sounds great.
 
One mans "Touring" is another mans bumpy road, gravel road, washouts.

If you want a cushy ride, seat post suspension is the key!

This is what I've been thinking to save the bum from the daily nut-sack massage.
Also look into how much of a wider tire you can use, not like tire tread friction is a difference with e-biking.
 
markz said:
If you want a cushy ride, seat post suspension is the key!
Click to expand...

That's a good way to take the sting out of rough surface riding without taking away luggage capacity.
 
Yeah I know :)
The best bet is to not cheap out neither, them Thudbusters look like a top choice, the sting of the price may hurt but the bum will thank Thee later on. I've been contemplating my next e-bike that will be a fat bike, and spending big bucks on a cushy seat post, add to that a security allen bolt down seat post clamp, a welded on loop anchor to secure the seat post even more, then perhaps a large seat bag to encapsulate and hide the cushy mechanism. Heavy Weighters like us, dont have any choices when it comes to full suspension bicycles, but there are options for a cushy seat post! Ideal for the XC/Touring people. I was riding on some well worn ground, it was from the pavement pathway, to the strip mall about 50m, riding 26x1.95, rigid w/fs at normal psi (fronts a tad low but not much) and I could feel every rock and root. Got me thinking how Justin mentioned when he rode and went to fat tire, the little bumps were lessened. Fats not ideal for XC/Touring though, but could be done with electrics, for the more off pavement prone. Perhaps the Trans-Canada Trail (TCT) now called The Great Trail, which has a combo of walk/bike/drive and water routes from Van Isle all the way east and another north. Its on the long list of things to do, just the crazy gassers out there.


Chalo said:
That's a good way to take the sting out of rough surface riding without taking away luggage capacity.
Click to expand...
 
I can attest that the SR Suntour NCX post is the real deal. It doesn't have as much travel as Thudbuster's parallelogram post, but it's nicely hydraulically damped and pretty awesome. The heavy version is heavily sprung enough for my roughly 350 pounds!
 
That gigantic, oversize touring bike did have rear suspension. I found though, that once a bike is that long, it needs no rear suspension. The bike pivots over the center better, and stops bending rims and breaking spokes when loaded.

And yeah, fixing a rear flat on that pig was a real bitch. First step, remove both those huge panniers. About 20 wood screws removed to do it. Later on, I put them on hinges, and it got a lot better. Two screws removed to be able to swivel the hinge.

All that is why I went to a shorter longtail, still unable to ride the bus though, and a trailer. Less weight on the rear wheel with much of the cargo on a trailer, easier to get at the hub bolts with smaller panniers, and a much nicer ride when not loaded for touring.


Weld an 8 inch extension onto that GT frame is the best bet. Pretty easy, no cutting of the original frame at all. All you need is some 3/16 thick steel plate, about 10 x10 inches. Later on maybe, purchase a good longtail frame, or weld one from scratch like I did on my third homemade longtail.
 
Thanks for all your contributions. I've not had a chance to check this thread as much as I'd like, and every time I check, there's more information to help me procrastinate further. Credit to you all!!!

Time to take the plunge. Based on all your ideas I now have an idea of the spec...

I'm going to avoid any welding for now. My focus is getting mobile.

Motor - 1500W rear hub
Controller - Grin Tech Phaserunner
Battery - 72v

HANG ON! Whilst looking for suppliers, I found out-the-box conversion kits.

This 3000w caught my eye: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...ontroller-200A-phase-current/32683189287.html

Or this 1500w: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fro...-conversion-kit-for-20-24-26/32684555943.html

I'll then buy seat post, forks separately.

Has anyone bought a full kit before?

I'm tempted to go with the 1500W as is very affordable. The idea being, I spend $300 on the kit and use it to learn the ropes. And guarantee all the electric components integrate out-the-box.

I'm so close to hitting the "Buy" button!
 
We are mostly all about "out of the box" conversions here on Endless Sphere, if you want store bought, expensive e-rides then MTBR likes to moderate with ego's. I have not gotten into Pedelec UK at all, nor Facebook E.S. as a matter of fact, I deleted my faceplant account 2 months ago and can not re-activate it which is all the better, but places like Airbnb need to use social media to authenticate so its a dilemma which I got into a few years back in Golden, British Columbia, Canada and the reason why I joined faceplant with my real name. Aside from that story....

Leafbike 1500W is the one you want, not some mystery kit from Alie/Ebay/Alib
They even have the KT display if you want that.
You then have to find a battery and assess your risk level.
I personally and cheap, but I have recently come into a steady stream of guaranteed money so hopefully that will change my cheapness factor as I never had no money before, even negating the liquor fund. Aside from that story....

Back to the major component of any kit, the battery. I am sure you have read up on LiPo and mystery batteries and I am sure you prefer to buy from reputable companies, right? Aside from your Aliexpress links which I will ignore. There is little you want to cheap out on when it comes to e-riding, batteries and chargers is one aspect, another is under-powering your e-kicks! Neat new word I just came up with! Them Leafbike's are efficient (going on Netpronix's posts) and you can sink a ton of power into them if you wish, and the size, weight is manageable! Which is a bonus, another is that is direct drive, match it with a sinewave controller (in the future) and its silent, no sound! Which can be good for you depending on your geographical area, and the granola/tree hugger factor of the residents of your geographical area. No offense to any of those in this forum, I am sure there are at least one (active) of you here. Yes, I am an oilman, which is what Alberta is, I digress, oilman sounds like a Tycoon or leader which I am neither, aside from that story....

Seems I am on a roll, guess I am feeling good today, though cold & snow is forcasted, aside. I wonder if you can order them Leafbike motors in a "Turn Count" which is KV, which is RPM/V. I have always wondered that.

Ok I am done.







bengee said:
Motor - 1500W rear hub
Controller - Grin Tech Phaserunner
Battery - 72v

HANG ON! Whilst looking for suppliers, I found out-the-box conversion kits.

This 3000w caught my eye: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...ontroller-200A-phase-current/32683189287.html

Or this 1500w: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fro...-conversion-kit-for-20-24-26/32684555943.html

Has anyone bought a full kit before?
Click to expand...
 
Thanks markz.

I've followed your advice and opted with the 1500w leaf rear hub.

I'll be installing it on a 2019 Genesis Vagabond. The bike looks sturdy enough out the box. Would you suggest changing anything for safety / stability?

I'm yet to buy a battery. I'm looking for big, or 2 smaller. I'll be carrying the battery on the rear rack or in panniers.

Who's a reputable battery supplier?

markz said:
We are mostly all about "out of the box" conversions here on Endless Sphere, if you want store bought, expensive e-rides then MTBR likes to moderate with ego's. I have not gotten into Pedelec UK at all, nor Facebook E.S. as a matter of fact, I deleted my faceplant account 2 months ago and can not re-activate it which is all the better, but places like Airbnb need to use social media to authenticate so its a dilemma which I got into a few years back in Golden, British Columbia, Canada and the reason why I joined faceplant with my real name. Aside from that story....

Leafbike 1500W is the one you want, not some mystery kit from Alie/Ebay/Alib
They even have the KT display if you want that.
You then have to find a battery and assess your risk level.
I personally and cheap, but I have recently come into a steady stream of guaranteed money so hopefully that will change my cheapness factor as I never had no money before, even negating the liquor fund. Aside from that story....

Back to the major component of any kit, the battery. I am sure you have read up on LiPo and mystery batteries and I am sure you prefer to buy from reputable companies, right? Aside from your Aliexpress links which I will ignore. There is little you want to cheap out on when it comes to e-riding, batteries and chargers is one aspect, another is under-powering your e-kicks! Neat new word I just came up with! Them Leafbike's are efficient (going on Netpronix's posts) and you can sink a ton of power into them if you wish, and the size, weight is manageable! Which is a bonus, another is that is direct drive, match it with a sinewave controller (in the future) and its silent, no sound! Which can be good for you depending on your geographical area, and the granola/tree hugger factor of the residents of your geographical area. No offense to any of those in this forum, I am sure there are at least one (active) of you here. Yes, I am an oilman, which is what Alberta is, I digress, oilman sounds like a Tycoon or leader which I am neither, aside from that story....

Seems I am on a roll, guess I am feeling good today, though cold & snow is forcasted, aside. I wonder if you can order them Leafbike motors in a "Turn Count" which is KV, which is RPM/V. I have always wondered that.

Ok I am done.







bengee said:
Motor - 1500W rear hub
Controller - Grin Tech Phaserunner
Battery - 72v

HANG ON! Whilst looking for suppliers, I found out-the-box conversion kits.

This 3000w caught my eye: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...ontroller-200A-phase-current/32683189287.html

Or this 1500w: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fro...-conversion-kit-for-20-24-26/32684555943.html

Has anyone bought a full kit before?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
bengee said:
Thanks markz.

I've followed your advice and opted with the 1500w leaf rear hub.

I'll be installing it on a 2019 Genesis Vagabond. The bike looks sturdy enough out the box. Would you suggest changing anything for safety / stability?
Click to expand...

I'm really glad to discover that Genesis bikes in the UK are different than Genesis bikes in the USA.

The main thing that I would suggest is to get the Leaf motor as a bare motor, or else resign yourself to taking the wheel apart and discarding the rim and spokes. They will be that bad. The wheel parts that come included with hub motors are equivalent to the very cheapest disarmed store bikes, or maybe not even that good.

Lace 2.0mm spokes (or 2.0/1.8mm spokes, if you can get them in the right length) all outside the hub flange, in a cross-one pattern. Bring the spokes up to 120kgf of tension at least. Use as sturdy a rim as you can. Alex DM24 from Luna Cycle is an outstanding rim for the price.

The rear wheel is probably the hardest working part of the bike. Your entire experience of the bike's reliability will be dependent on how adequate that wheel is.
 
For batteries the good ones to go to are places like Unit Pack Power on Aliexpress/Alibaba, and EM3EV.com and www.ebikes.ca those are the only ones that comes to mind at 2:20am as I've been up since 9am. Night owl yes!

If you are going to placing a battery on the rear rack, then you need a sturdy and strong rear rack. The only way you can get one is to make one, buy your steel from Home Depot, Lowes or a local metal supplier like Metal Supermarket.

Do not forget torque arms, they are a must because that motor will tear up the dropouts very easily. I just make my own torque arms, yes yes yes I feel the need to show my mastery skillzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Gosh, that setup seems so long ago. Split pack, one ontop of rear rack, one in the triangle. It was a decent bicycle, Norco Cityglide, except for the stock IGH which made the rear dropout smaller then usual. No worries in that depart with flat head screw driver, or hammer claw, or the adjustable wrench handle prying that sshhhhhizzznitzle open. Yes you saw rightly, no chain.....for months and months, probably a year. Look at them torque arms, its artwork at its best, functional artwork at its best. More on that bike, I snapped off the little bit of the seat tube, so it was thrown in the dumpster, and in the landfill along with countless B.S.O.'s. Sheeeesh I see two Meanwells charging up, that pic is older then I thought. They worked well, LED's would have been a better choice if found for a good price. Otherwise just buy whatever the battery supplier has. My battery pack was built by me, its gotta be 2 yrs now maybe 3 yrs and I get less then half of what I used to get but it gets me around. The cup holder is gone now, better that way.
 
I don't think I'm up to building my own spokes. I'll look into it now.

Are there any hub motors that come as a decent wheel?

Chalo said:
I'm really glad to discover that Genesis bikes in the UK are different than Genesis bikes in the USA.

The main thing that I would suggest is to get the Leaf motor as a bare motor, or else resign yourself to taking the wheel apart and discarding the rim and spokes. They will be that bad. The wheel parts that come included with hub motors are equivalent to the very cheapest disarmed store bikes, or maybe not even that good.

Lace 2.0mm spokes (or 2.0/1.8mm spokes, if you can get them in the right length) all outside the hub flange, in a cross-one pattern. Bring the spokes up to 120kgf of tension at least. Use as sturdy a rim as you can. Alex DM24 from Luna Cycle is an outstanding rim for the price.

The rear wheel is probably the hardest working part of the bike. Your entire experience of the bike's reliability will be dependent on how adequate that wheel is.
Click to expand...
 
bengee said:
I don't think I'm up to building my own spokes. I'll look into it now.

Are there any hub motors that come as a decent wheel?
Click to expand...

Mine actually came with an Alex DH19, and the spoke tensioning etc. was fine, but that was a small local outfit, West Coast Electric Vehicles, that appears to have been sidelined in favor of Barent's other work at more high performance electric stuff. I've built wheels and was prepared to do it, but honestly I don't know for sure I could have done as good a job. It's an interesting exercise, but it probably doesn't make much sense for your electric hub to be your first wheel build. It would be a better bet to get a wheel built at a local bike shop.
 
I bought my motor from Grin and they built the wheel to order. However, they charge as much as the local wheel builders do, so there was no cost savings to having them do it. Local wheel builders in my area charge about $50-60 USD, plus the cost of spokes and rim. Your LBS will have a wheel builder or know of one. Building a wheel really isn't that hard and doesn't take as long as you would think. I think the first one I built took a little over two hours and the second one took half that time.

[youtube]3OialWggZJo[/youtube]
 
bengee said:
I don't think I'm up to building my own spokes. I'll look into it now.

Are there any hub motors that come as a decent wheel?
Click to expand...

A scrupulous and quality-conscious seller might bring the motors in unbuilt and then put wheels together using good parts. But the vast majority of these things have been built to the cheapest possible standard, with poor materials, spokes that are too thick, and sloppy assembly.

As someone else already pointed out, a hub motor wheel is not a great first wheel to build when you're new to it. You can certainly do it, but the wheel might be better if you take it to a professional with hub motor experience.

The most important thing, other than avoiding grievously cheap rims and spokes, is to use thin spokes (like 2.0/1.8mm double butted, rather then the 2.7mm spokes that Chinese manufacturers tend to use). The strength of the wheel is in the rim; the spokes' role is supportive. Spokes can't do their job if they can't stretch to share and distribute loads. So paradoxically, any given rim can carry more weight more reliably with thin spokes than with thick ones. When using a hub motor, this might mean you have to put small washers under the spoke heads to keep them from pulling through the oversized holes in the hub.

Chalo said:
The wheel parts that come included with hub motors are equivalent to the very cheapest disarmed store bikes,
Click to expand...

I meant to say "department", but my fone had other ideas.
 
EM3EV make hubs so I’ve ordered a kit and I believe they build the wheel? Not certain though.

I keep looking over my order and checking I have everything I need, but there are a couple of things I’m unsure about. Those thing being PAS and “Mac Motor Wind”.
 
markz said:
Building the wheel is an additional charge, usually like $50-$75.
Click to expand...

Since they are quoting the rim and spokes separately, it seems likely that they are building the wheel to order and maybe including the labor in the cost of the kit. Those are the same rim and spokes that Grin used on my wheel. I ordered an extra rim from them so that I can build a matching front wheel. I couldn't find a 26" DM24 rim anywhere else.

As for the wind and PAS, I can't speak from experience yet. The wind will determine the maximum speed of the motor for a particular battery voltage. A higher battery voltage will result in a higher top speed for the motor for a particular wind. The motor simulator at Grin will allow you to see how different voltages will affect the speed on different winds: https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html.

PAS is an alternative to using a throttle. It applies power to the motor based on pedal cadence or pedal pressure if you have a torque sensor. From what I can tell, some people prefer PAS and some people prefer throttle only. I ordered both a throttle and a torque sensor and will see which one I prefer. I suspect I will like PAS as I want to just pedal it like a regular bike and have some assist.
 
Now you have settled on a style of frame, I wanted to bring this bike to your attention. I have no idea how to add a link, but if you type Dawes synthesis into UK ebay it should be fairly easy to find. This is a reynolds 653 hybrid tourer with Mavic t261 rims on Hope tandem hubs, Hope bottom bracket, Deore xt/r brake set chain set and gears. it's a really nice setup. I would be amazed if it made half the cost of a new Genesis frame. I suggest saving money here in order to spend more elsewhere in your build. I thought you had decided on the Leafmotor 1500w motor,it has a broad efficiency band and greater thermal headroom than the Mac. The Mac is well suited to your needs but is more complicated for a potential 900 mile ebike trip. As to where I Would choose to spend more money on an ebike for Lands end to John o'groats that would be two products from Grin. Namely the phaserunner controller and satiator charger. The phaserunner has thermal rollback for controller and motor,is fully programmable and weatherproof, and it allows variable regen. The satiator is compact powerful efficient and weather proof. Both products are thoroughly engineered by enthusiasts to limit the risk of electrical failure. The bicycle integrity part of touring is quite easy. The electrical aspect is less proven. Best of luck with your build.
 
RunForTheHills said:
From what I can tell, some people prefer PAS and some people prefer throttle only. I ordered both a throttle and a torque sensor and will see which one I prefer. I suspect I will like PAS as I want to just pedal it like a regular bike and have some assist.
Click to expand...

Who knows? As you say, some see the point in it, and some don't. The only thing that seems to be kind of a myth is that it depends whether you want to pedal. I mean, of course PAS won't work if you don't pedal, but pedaling works just fine with a throttle. So as long as you are going to pedal, whether you actually want PAS comes down to whether you think it will be more fun to control the motor that way, or conversely it will be just an unnecessary complication. The key thing I'd recommend, if you're getting a throttle, see if you can get a controller with "cruise control", which holds the current throttle until you actively change it or brake. Within that, you can pedal 100% or more and see the motor amps go down to 0, or whatever you want and let the motor take the remaining load. Constantly holding the throttle on is for some reason, for me, a lot less convenient than it was on my motorcycle.
 
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